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NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)



 
 
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  #72  
Old November 16th 06, 07:15 PM posted to sci.space.history
Eric Chomko
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Posts: 2,630
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)


Rand Simberg wrote:
On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:08:17 GMT, in a place far, far away, Monte
Davis made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

One of the most striking things about discussions of space is the
widespread disconnect between the ugly real world of aerospace
engineering and an imagined, beautiful "how it oughta be" where the
engineers always get to do everything right without any interference
from managers, Congress (for NASA) or investors (for private
ventures).


What's so frustrating is that we aren't even asking to do everything
right. We'd just like to do it so everything isn't so damned *wrong*.


Right or wrong isn't what is going to get you into space, goals and
results will.

Eric

  #73  
Old November 16th 06, 07:28 PM posted to sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
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Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)

On 16 Nov 2006 10:15:10 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Eric Chomko"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such
a way as to indicate that:

One of the most striking things about discussions of space is the
widespread disconnect between the ugly real world of aerospace
engineering and an imagined, beautiful "how it oughta be" where the
engineers always get to do everything right without any interference
from managers, Congress (for NASA) or investors (for private
ventures).


What's so frustrating is that we aren't even asking to do everything
right. We'd just like to do it so everything isn't so damned *wrong*.


Right or wrong isn't what is going to get you into space, goals and
results will.


Stop speaking gibberish.
  #74  
Old November 16th 06, 07:51 PM posted to sci.space.history
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
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Posts: 121
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)

In article .com,
Eric Chomko wrote:
I want to know who has you in their killfile, OM.


A lot of us don't use killfiles ... at least not on people, I admit
I use a killfile for one group that simply deletes all cross-posts.
Besides, neither does OM ... he just spouts on about it, but if you watch,
eventually, he can't resist replying to stuff that someone on his
"killfile" posted.

You seem to have an inflated opinion of yourself.


That he does - he's just a small-minded person full of hate at people,
based on race, colour, creed, sexuality, and if they agree with him
or not.

Your website sucks and you don't use your
real name. I basically think that you are a sheep that tires to act
like a wolf.


Well, in his defence, it's no secret, and he will tell you himself.
OM stands for Omega Man (why I don't know ... perhaps it's part of his
superego), and his real name is Bob Mosley ... with one of those Yankee
number things on the end, or something.

Also I note that you killfile those that don't share your political
views, unless they are Henry that is.


Yes, he does seem to have his tongue rather deep up Henry's ass ... I've
always thought that was a little odd ...

Nick
  #75  
Old November 16th 06, 08:21 PM posted to sci.space.shuttle,sci.space.history
columbiaaccidentinvestigation
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Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)

Danny Dot wrote:" Good information in you post. If you look up the
definition of narcissistic, you will get a feel for how NASA management
acts. It is impossible for NASA management to admit it has a problem
or has made an error. Classic narcissistic behavior. Any NASA
employee that attempts to
fix a problem is put down because "NASA doesn't have any problems". OK. I over state the situation, but it is almost this bad, and I do think NASA is getting better. Wayne Hale, the Shuttle Program Manager, is a good example. Mr. Hale has enough honesty to admit there is a problem. If NASA keeps putting people like him in possition of responsibility, NASA engineers might someday be comfortable speaking up against a management decision."


The point of Roger Boisjoly's information and affiliation with a
group such as onlineethics.org is for all of us to benefit from his
personal story to stop the launch of challenger, and prevent the
tragedy that occurred jan 28 1986. Boisjoly, his engineering colleages
and low level managers encountered much frustration from the fact they
did not have the power or authority to make nasa upper management heed
the warnings prior to the tragic launch of sts-51l, or in the post
tragedy time frame to investigate if boijolys recommendations to
correct nasa's upper management problems were valid. Boisjoly
basically feels his congressional testimony titled "Nasa's midlife
crisis, a context for change" presented to the congressional
subcomiitee of space and science technology of 1991, (along with a
former ceo of martin marreita, and one of the founders of hp), was not
utilized, acted upon, an experience that has left him rather frustrated
with nasa, and congress (a felling some of you have shared on this
thread). Roger Boijolys point to bring a bout a change in nasa
policies, was to make upper management crimmanly responsible for their
decisions (if found to be negligent), as to prevent non-ethical forces
influencing decisions, such as what happened in the case of management
choosing to launch challenger the morning of jan 28 1986, inspite of
recomnedations not to launch by Boisjoly and his colleages.

please see below the interesting information at onlineethics.org
pertaining to ethical engineering practices.

http://www.onlineethics.org/eng/index.html
"onlineethics.org: Engineering Pracitce
This section of the OEC contains cases, discussions, and ethical
guidelines bearing on the professional responsibilities of engineers.
These range over the engineering disciplines from civil to electrical
to biomedical engineering. The cases themselves vary significantly in
structure. Some are discussion cases that present open-ended situations
requiring a response. Some are descriptions of completed actions and
call for a judgment on an action taken. Many cases are brief, but some
detailed descriptions also appear. Most cases are at least loosely
based on real incidents, in order to give a realistic impression of the
moral problems that face engineers.
In Memoriam -- Roland Schinzinger (1926 - 2004)
Electrical engineer, pioneer in engineering ethics, and longtime
advisor to the OEC.
Cases
A variety of types of engineering cases that raise ethical issues,
including detailed historical cases, such as Three-Mile Island accident
and Roger Boisjoly on the Space Shuttle Challenger Disaster,
International cases, NSPE BER judgements, Michael Pritchard's
Hypothetical cases with commentaries, and cases reported to the
IEEE."

Open sharing of information is crucial to improving everybody's
understanding of the universe around us.
Tom

  #76  
Old November 16th 06, 09:40 PM posted to sci.space.shuttle,sci.space.history
Derek Lyons
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Posts: 2,999
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)

"columbiaaccidentinvestigation"
wrote:

The point of Roger Boisjoly's information and affiliation with a
group such as onlineethics.org is for all of us to benefit from his
personal story to stop the launch of challenger, and prevent the
tragedy that occurred jan 28 1986.


Except - he didn't actually take any actual action to stop the launch
and prevent the tragedy. When push came to shove - he folded.

His actual message seems to be "you can claim an ethical victory even
if you failed". (Or to put it even finer "it does not matter if
people died, so long as you've done the minimum to salve you our
conscience".)

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
  #77  
Old November 16th 06, 09:55 PM posted to sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,465
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)



OM wrote:

...Ah, the great "Cosmic Space Turd". The wire stories for that event
were the first copy editing assignment I had at the _Deadly Texan_,
over 20 years ago. Damn thing came off not quite as easy as they
thought it would; IIRC it took two swipes to knock it off, which led
to quite a few comments about the thing being proof that Space Food
Sticks lead to constipation no matter what the digestive tract :-)



That thing's toilet caused more headaches over the early years of the
program.... I still like the "slinger" that's rotating down inside it as
you use it: "Now, let's see how our toilet works, shall we? Having
carefully seated yourself so that your ass is directly over the rotating
blades..." :-)

Pat
  #78  
Old November 16th 06, 10:08 PM posted to sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,465
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)



OM wrote:

William Mook



Oh, come on; Mook can come up with some incredibly strange fun ideas.
I actually could figure out what he was trying to do with the soundless
rocket motor; I think it was supposed to work like this:
Center nozzle - exhaust velocity Mach 5
Surrounded by next nozzle - exhaust velocity Mach 4.1
Surrounded by next nozzle - exhaust velocity Mach 3.2
Surrounded by next nozzle - exhaust velocity Mach 2.3
Surrounded by next nozzle - exhaust velocity Mach 1.4
Surrounded by next nozzle - exhaust velocity Mach .9
The idea being that the exhaust gas is always moving subsonicly compared
to the gas sheath surrounding it.


Pat
  #79  
Old November 16th 06, 10:38 PM posted to sci.space.history
Jochem Huhmann
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Posts: 606
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)

Pat Flannery writes:

OM wrote:

William Mook



Oh, come on; Mook can come up with some incredibly strange fun ideas.


And killfiling him is absolutely pointless, because he only posts very
rarely. He also has no habit to engage in endless threads. He's actually
quite reasonable, even if he seems somewhat disconnnected from reality.
But I forgive him every time because at least he gets his numbers right.

The idea being that the exhaust gas is always moving subsonicly compared
to the gas sheath surrounding it.


Might be quite useful some day in the future when you have spacecraft
lifting off everywhere daily... Yeah, that's the "disconnected from
reality" part. Still, I enjoy his postings usually. There're too many
people around here being much too connected to our boring reality
anyway.


Jochem

--
"A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no
longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
  #80  
Old November 16th 06, 10:55 PM posted to sci.space.shuttle,sci.space.history
columbiaaccidentinvestigation
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Posts: 1,344
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)

I stated "The point of Roger Boisjoly's information and affiliation
with a group such as onlineethics.org is for all of us to benefit from
his personal story to stop the launch of challenger, and prevent the
tragedy that occurred jan 28 1986"

Derek Lyons replied "Except - he didn't actually take any actual action
to stop the launch and prevent the tragedy. When push came to shove -
he folded. His actual message seems to be "you can claim an ethical
victory even if you failed". (Or to put it even finer "it does not
matter if people died, so long as you've done the minimum to salve you
our conscience"

Interesting critique of one mans actions derek, firstly I hope you may
you never be faced with the burden Boisjoly and his colleagues have to
bear for attempting to, but not being able to stop a tragedy from
occurring, but I quess that may fall under the category of only being
human. Now the historical account in the Rogers commission report
shows boisjoly was talking to the right people, and presenting the
correct evidence to postpone the cold weather launch of sts-51l on jan
28, 1986, but his advice was ignored by people who had the authority to
overrule him, and did. Now maybe, just maybe, if adopted, Roger
Boisjoly recommendations in his "Nasa's midlife crisis, a context
for change" presented to the congressional subcommittee of space and
science technology of 1991, could have implemented the changes within
nasa to prevent the Columbia tragedy (ie making nasa upper management
criminally responsible for their decisions, if they are found to be
negligent). A great understanding how ethical engineering issues
applies to the launching of space vehicles can be found in the
individual cases described inside the onlineethics.org website (such as
the issues roger boisjoly faced when attempting to convince nasa
mission manager not to launch sts-51l on the cold weather morning of
jan 28, 1986.)

http://www.onlineethics.org/eng/index.html
"onlineethics.org: Engineering Pracitce
This section of the OEC contains cases, discussions, and ethical
guidelines bearing on the professional responsibilities of engineers.
These range over the engineering disciplines from civil to electrical
to biomedical engineering. The cases themselves vary significantly in
structure. Some are discussion cases that present open-ended situations
requiring a response. Some are descriptions of completed actions and
call for a judgment on an action taken. Many cases are brief, but some
detailed descriptions also appear. Most cases are at least loosely
based on real incidents, in order to give a realistic impression of the
moral problems that face engineers.
In Memoriam -- Roland Schinzinger (1926 - 2004)
Electrical engineer, pioneer in engineering ethics, and longtime
advisor to the OEC.
Cases
A variety of types of engineering cases that raise ethical issues,
including detailed historical cases, such as Three-Mile Island accident
and Roger Boisjoly on the Space Shuttle Challenger Disaster,
International cases, NSPE BER judgements, Michael Pritchard's
Hypothetical cases with commentaries, and cases reported to the
IEEE."

Open sharing of information is crucial to improving everybody's
understanding of the universe around us.
Tom

 




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