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Apollo: One gas environment?



 
 
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  #461  
Old May 14th 04, 07:02 PM
Andrew Gray
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On 2004-05-14, Pat Flannery wrote:

I would think that, by forcing the Allies to slog through Italy from
1942-44, Germany and the Axis countries possibly delayed the eventual
invasion of Europe via France by as much as a year. (Granted, the
invasion might still have had to wait until June of '44 just to assemble
the mass of warmaking machinery and the vehicles to deliver it that was
required for a successful invasion.)


Italy gave us a base from which to operate B-17s and B-24s against the
Axis oil fields, like Ploesti- which would have been out of range from
Britain. My dad's B-24 squadron was in on some of the Ploesti strikes.


Ploesti was also raided from Egypt, mind you, and I believe in one
rather innovative attempt a large raid was staged from England, over a
major Eastern European taget (can't recall where) and then into the
USSR. Not the greatest of sucesses...

--
-Andrew Gray

  #463  
Old May 14th 04, 08:56 PM
Doug...
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In article , says...

"Doug..." wrote in message
...
In article ,

says...


Doug... wrote:



I would think that, by forcing the Allies to slog through Italy from
1942-44, Germany and the Axis countries possibly delayed the eventual
invasion of Europe via France by as much as a year. (Granted, the
invasion might still have had to wait until June of '44 just to

assemble
the mass of warmaking machinery and the vehicles to deliver it that was
required for a successful invasion.)


Italy gave us a base from which to operate B-17s and B-24s against the
Axis oil fields, like Ploesti- which would have been out of range from
Britain. My dad's B-24 squadron was in on some of the Ploesti strikes.
Lack of oil that was one of the main things that brought Germany to it's
knees in the later war period, so the Italian invasion was definitely
worth it.


Yeah, very true. Altough the Allies were pretty good at finding and
holding the staging bases they needed as the war progressed. If they
didn't have Italy to stage air strikes from, they likely would have
found, taken and built air bases on some other piece(s) of real estate
they could have held for long enough to get the job done.

Where? Without Italy, do the Axis bother with Greece or Yugoslavia?


More to the point, instead of invading Italy, wouldn't we have possibly
just done what was necessary to use Greece, for example, as a base?
There were a number of islands and other plaes we could have
concentrated resources on taking over, if invading Italy wasn't a
justifiable option.

Doug

  #464  
Old May 15th 04, 12:22 AM
OM
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On Fri, 14 May 2004 17:28:22 GMT, Doug...
wrote:

So, as a general comment, I don't want anyone to think I don't know from
personal experience what war can do to people. I've had a lot of
exposure to what it did to my Dad.


....This has taught me a very valuable lesson, Dougie. I'm going to
give up snorting sulfa powder right now!

[ducks]

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr
  #465  
Old May 15th 04, 12:41 AM
OM
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On Wed, 12 May 2004 18:26:46 +0100, Anthony Frost
wrote:

If you have say a TV and video which are only used for watching
pre-recorded material you don't need a licence, but a few people who
thought they'd get away with having a neighbour record things off air
for them on a regular basis found themselves on the wrong end of a fine.


....I'm assuming they also still run around with those mobile trucks,
hunting down illegal TV sets like the Gestapo? And, for that matter,
have they attempted to clamp down on people downloading capped content
from the Internet, claiming it's the same as your neighbor videotaping
stuff for you?

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr
  #466  
Old May 15th 04, 01:01 AM
Mary Shafer
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On 14 May 2004 18:02:37 GMT, Andrew Gray
wrote:

Ploesti was also raided from Egypt, mind you, and I believe in one
rather innovative attempt a large raid was staged from England, over a
major Eastern European taget (can't recall where) and then into the
USSR. Not the greatest of sucesses...


My uncle flew in the first Ploesti raid, the one that went so badly.
His airplane was shot down and he was smuggled out by the Rumanian
Underground.

Mary


--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

  #467  
Old May 15th 04, 02:49 AM
Peter Stickney
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In article ,
Andrew Gray writes:
On 2004-05-14, Pat Flannery wrote:

I would think that, by forcing the Allies to slog through Italy from
1942-44, Germany and the Axis countries possibly delayed the eventual
invasion of Europe via France by as much as a year. (Granted, the
invasion might still have had to wait until June of '44 just to assemble
the mass of warmaking machinery and the vehicles to deliver it that was
required for a successful invasion.)


Italy gave us a base from which to operate B-17s and B-24s against the
Axis oil fields, like Ploesti- which would have been out of range from
Britain. My dad's B-24 squadron was in on some of the Ploesti strikes.


Ploesti was also raided from Egypt, mind you, and I believe in one
rather innovative attempt a large raid was staged from England, over a
major Eastern European taget (can't recall where) and then into the
USSR. Not the greatest of sucesses...


The shuttle raids (UK-USSR-UK) were, to decribe them politely, a
Colossal Mongolian Goat Screw. Poor COMSEC (Communication Security)
on the part of the Soviets let the Germans know that something was
coming. When the B-17s crossed into Poland, they were shadowed by
Luftwaffe Recce aircraft that followed them to the staging bases.
That night, the Germans raided the bases and detroyed a number of
B-17s. Having Soviet fighters jump the B-17's escorting P-38s as they
were entering the traffic pattern was just the icing on the cake.
We found that cooperating that actively with teh Soviets wasn't, shall
we say, productive. Shuttle raids continued, but now they staged from
the UK-Italy-UK. Much, much better, since the only flak they had to
deal with was German.

(As a side note, just before the fall of Greece, in 1941, there was
very nearly a British bombng raid on Ploesti and Baku (And yes, Baku
was in the Soviet Union - don't forget that the Soviets had jumped
into Poland with teh Germans, and were supporting the Germans, not
only with raw materiels but espionage and sabotage of the Allies
through the GRU, Amtorg, and the local Communist Parties, so they were
a Happy Paricipant, if not Member in Full of the Axis side from Sept
1939 until June, 1941 If the French were the obnly people who lost WW
2 twice once on each side, the Soviets are the only ones who won
twice.) that was canned at the last moment.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
  #468  
Old May 15th 04, 10:51 AM
Anthony Frost
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In message
OM om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_researc h_facility.org wrote:

On Wed, 12 May 2004 18:26:46 +0100, Anthony Frost
wrote:

If you have say a TV and video which are only used for watching
pre-recorded material you don't need a licence, but a few people who
thought they'd get away with having a neighbour record things off air
for them on a regular basis found themselves on the wrong end of a fine.


...I'm assuming they also still run around with those mobile trucks,
hunting down illegal TV sets like the Gestapo?


Computerised lists and repeated nagging by post if an address
doesn't show up as having a licence mostly. There are a number of
detector vans, some of which actually do have equipment inside, and a
larger number of hand held detector sets.

And, for that matter,
have they attempted to clamp down on people downloading capped content
from the Internet, claiming it's the same as your neighbor videotaping
stuff for you?


That's a plain ordinary copyright violation, but there is a lot of
thought about what do do about material distributed over the internet.
Most BBC Radio material is available online streamed live and on what
they call the "Listen Again" service, and they want to start doing the
same for TV.

Anthony


--
| Weather prediction will never be accurate until we |
| kill all the butterflies |
  #469  
Old May 15th 04, 09:32 PM
Andrew Gray
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On 2004-05-12, Anthony Frost wrote:
In message
OM om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_researc h_facility.org wrote:

...I've always been confused about that one. I've heard differing
stories over the years, first that it was mandantory even if you
didn't own a TV set, then it was mandantory only if you owned a set,
and then it varied on what part of Englandland you lived in.


You are required to have a valid licence for the operation of equipment
capable of receiving broadcast TV signals. 120 quid for a colour set
(VCRs are assumed to be colour equipment) less for black and white only.
The licence covers all equipment installed on the premises.


There's odd exemptions involving battery-powered equipment, though;
wither they don't require it or a license in the owning premises
suffices to cover it being used in an unlicensed property; there may
also be certain exemptions in odd cases.

(this was explained to us when we were students, during which time I
think I paid for an average of about a fifth of a TV license a year and
didn't begrudge never using it g)

It's something you learn to appreciate, like having unarmed police.


g

--
-Andrew Gray

  #470  
Old May 15th 04, 09:44 PM
Andrew Gray
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On 2004-05-14, Ami Silberman wrote:

Where? Without Italy, do the Axis bother with Greece or Yugoslavia?


Greece was an Italian venture the Germans pulled them out of, and then
found themselves having to secure; Yugoslavia, however, probably would
have been invaded if Italy was neutral. A pro-Allied Yugoslavia - and it
was certainly havering that way at times - would have been a major
strategic risk to Germany and its allies, tactically and economically.

The importance of holding Yugoslavia late in the war was the reources
flowing through it - Yugoslavia produced significant amounts of bauxite,
lead, and copper as well as chromium and magnesium, and was a conduit
for Turkish imports. (The loss of the Yugoslavian chromium supply - and
the larger Turkish supply that travelled through it - was one of the
final pacing events for the death of German industry in 1945)

--
-Andrew Gray

 




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