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#461
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On 2004-05-14, Pat Flannery wrote:
I would think that, by forcing the Allies to slog through Italy from 1942-44, Germany and the Axis countries possibly delayed the eventual invasion of Europe via France by as much as a year. (Granted, the invasion might still have had to wait until June of '44 just to assemble the mass of warmaking machinery and the vehicles to deliver it that was required for a successful invasion.) Italy gave us a base from which to operate B-17s and B-24s against the Axis oil fields, like Ploesti- which would have been out of range from Britain. My dad's B-24 squadron was in on some of the Ploesti strikes. Ploesti was also raided from Egypt, mind you, and I believe in one rather innovative attempt a large raid was staged from England, over a major Eastern European taget (can't recall where) and then into the USSR. Not the greatest of sucesses... -- -Andrew Gray |
#462
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"Doug..." wrote in message ... In article , says... Doug... wrote: I would think that, by forcing the Allies to slog through Italy from 1942-44, Germany and the Axis countries possibly delayed the eventual invasion of Europe via France by as much as a year. (Granted, the invasion might still have had to wait until June of '44 just to assemble the mass of warmaking machinery and the vehicles to deliver it that was required for a successful invasion.) Italy gave us a base from which to operate B-17s and B-24s against the Axis oil fields, like Ploesti- which would have been out of range from Britain. My dad's B-24 squadron was in on some of the Ploesti strikes. Lack of oil that was one of the main things that brought Germany to it's knees in the later war period, so the Italian invasion was definitely worth it. Yeah, very true. Altough the Allies were pretty good at finding and holding the staging bases they needed as the war progressed. If they didn't have Italy to stage air strikes from, they likely would have found, taken and built air bases on some other piece(s) of real estate they could have held for long enough to get the job done. Where? Without Italy, do the Axis bother with Greece or Yugoslavia? |
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On Fri, 14 May 2004 17:28:22 GMT, Doug...
wrote: So, as a general comment, I don't want anyone to think I don't know from personal experience what war can do to people. I've had a lot of exposure to what it did to my Dad. ....This has taught me a very valuable lesson, Dougie. I'm going to give up snorting sulfa powder right now! [ducks] OM -- "No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society - General George S. Patton, Jr |
#465
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On Wed, 12 May 2004 18:26:46 +0100, Anthony Frost
wrote: If you have say a TV and video which are only used for watching pre-recorded material you don't need a licence, but a few people who thought they'd get away with having a neighbour record things off air for them on a regular basis found themselves on the wrong end of a fine. ....I'm assuming they also still run around with those mobile trucks, hunting down illegal TV sets like the Gestapo? And, for that matter, have they attempted to clamp down on people downloading capped content from the Internet, claiming it's the same as your neighbor videotaping stuff for you? OM -- "No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society - General George S. Patton, Jr |
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On 14 May 2004 18:02:37 GMT, Andrew Gray
wrote: Ploesti was also raided from Egypt, mind you, and I believe in one rather innovative attempt a large raid was staged from England, over a major Eastern European taget (can't recall where) and then into the USSR. Not the greatest of sucesses... My uncle flew in the first Ploesti raid, the one that went so badly. His airplane was shot down and he was smuggled out by the Rumanian Underground. Mary -- Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer |
#467
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In article ,
Andrew Gray writes: On 2004-05-14, Pat Flannery wrote: I would think that, by forcing the Allies to slog through Italy from 1942-44, Germany and the Axis countries possibly delayed the eventual invasion of Europe via France by as much as a year. (Granted, the invasion might still have had to wait until June of '44 just to assemble the mass of warmaking machinery and the vehicles to deliver it that was required for a successful invasion.) Italy gave us a base from which to operate B-17s and B-24s against the Axis oil fields, like Ploesti- which would have been out of range from Britain. My dad's B-24 squadron was in on some of the Ploesti strikes. Ploesti was also raided from Egypt, mind you, and I believe in one rather innovative attempt a large raid was staged from England, over a major Eastern European taget (can't recall where) and then into the USSR. Not the greatest of sucesses... The shuttle raids (UK-USSR-UK) were, to decribe them politely, a Colossal Mongolian Goat Screw. Poor COMSEC (Communication Security) on the part of the Soviets let the Germans know that something was coming. When the B-17s crossed into Poland, they were shadowed by Luftwaffe Recce aircraft that followed them to the staging bases. That night, the Germans raided the bases and detroyed a number of B-17s. Having Soviet fighters jump the B-17's escorting P-38s as they were entering the traffic pattern was just the icing on the cake. We found that cooperating that actively with teh Soviets wasn't, shall we say, productive. Shuttle raids continued, but now they staged from the UK-Italy-UK. Much, much better, since the only flak they had to deal with was German. (As a side note, just before the fall of Greece, in 1941, there was very nearly a British bombng raid on Ploesti and Baku (And yes, Baku was in the Soviet Union - don't forget that the Soviets had jumped into Poland with teh Germans, and were supporting the Germans, not only with raw materiels but espionage and sabotage of the Allies through the GRU, Amtorg, and the local Communist Parties, so they were a Happy Paricipant, if not Member in Full of the Axis side from Sept 1939 until June, 1941 If the French were the obnly people who lost WW 2 twice once on each side, the Soviets are the only ones who won twice.) that was canned at the last moment. -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster |
#468
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In message
OM om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_researc h_facility.org wrote: On Wed, 12 May 2004 18:26:46 +0100, Anthony Frost wrote: If you have say a TV and video which are only used for watching pre-recorded material you don't need a licence, but a few people who thought they'd get away with having a neighbour record things off air for them on a regular basis found themselves on the wrong end of a fine. ...I'm assuming they also still run around with those mobile trucks, hunting down illegal TV sets like the Gestapo? Computerised lists and repeated nagging by post if an address doesn't show up as having a licence mostly. There are a number of detector vans, some of which actually do have equipment inside, and a larger number of hand held detector sets. And, for that matter, have they attempted to clamp down on people downloading capped content from the Internet, claiming it's the same as your neighbor videotaping stuff for you? That's a plain ordinary copyright violation, but there is a lot of thought about what do do about material distributed over the internet. Most BBC Radio material is available online streamed live and on what they call the "Listen Again" service, and they want to start doing the same for TV. Anthony -- | Weather prediction will never be accurate until we | | kill all the butterflies | |
#469
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On 2004-05-12, Anthony Frost wrote:
In message OM om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_researc h_facility.org wrote: ...I've always been confused about that one. I've heard differing stories over the years, first that it was mandantory even if you didn't own a TV set, then it was mandantory only if you owned a set, and then it varied on what part of Englandland you lived in. You are required to have a valid licence for the operation of equipment capable of receiving broadcast TV signals. 120 quid for a colour set (VCRs are assumed to be colour equipment) less for black and white only. The licence covers all equipment installed on the premises. There's odd exemptions involving battery-powered equipment, though; wither they don't require it or a license in the owning premises suffices to cover it being used in an unlicensed property; there may also be certain exemptions in odd cases. (this was explained to us when we were students, during which time I think I paid for an average of about a fifth of a TV license a year and didn't begrudge never using it g) It's something you learn to appreciate, like having unarmed police. g -- -Andrew Gray |
#470
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On 2004-05-14, Ami Silberman wrote:
Where? Without Italy, do the Axis bother with Greece or Yugoslavia? Greece was an Italian venture the Germans pulled them out of, and then found themselves having to secure; Yugoslavia, however, probably would have been invaded if Italy was neutral. A pro-Allied Yugoslavia - and it was certainly havering that way at times - would have been a major strategic risk to Germany and its allies, tactically and economically. The importance of holding Yugoslavia late in the war was the reources flowing through it - Yugoslavia produced significant amounts of bauxite, lead, and copper as well as chromium and magnesium, and was a conduit for Turkish imports. (The loss of the Yugoslavian chromium supply - and the larger Turkish supply that travelled through it - was one of the final pacing events for the death of German industry in 1945) -- -Andrew Gray |
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