"The Wind from the Sun" by Arthur Clarke

a425couple wrote:
peterwezeman wrote:
a425couple wrote:

I should have also sent this original post to the astronomy
group, where there is a chance someone might be interested.

Clarke *was* an astronomer. And a damned good one. And my favourie
SF author.

"The Wind from the Sun" is the name of a book by Arthur Clarke
that is a collection of all 18 short stories that Clarke wrote between
1961 and Feb. 1972.
IMHO, a quite good collection (I'll tell about a few.)

----snip----

I will admit, I just can not fully comprehend how to maneuver
a vessel moved by the sun's rays, when you do not have
the friction of the hull or a keel in water.
But, it is obviously correct and possible and described he
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail

That article *says* proven, but offers no evidence that a light sail
can provide tacking ability.

There *is* a physical explanation though (works best if the sail
is rigid and a perfect mirror). If the sail is turned to an angle
to the sun's particle stream, those particles that strike it will
be reflected. Let's say the angle is 45 degress, and they're
refelcted tangentially. Action and reation being opposite, that
means that the sail will be pushed in a composite direction made
up of the radial propulsion and the tangential reaction. After
some lag the craft itself would respond to the composite tug on
its lines.

Managing the pendulum effect would be interesting.

Again, IMHO, this is a great story.

It was first published in _Boy's Life_ as the cover story:
https://i2.wp.com/bookzone.boyslife....2015/05/bl.jpg
Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

Yes. As I was preparing the original post, I did look at
the Google Images, and saw that image of the space vessel,
and two other drawings done of the same.
Certainly different that what I'd imagined in my mind.
But very workable from Clarke's words (although with the
'greenhouse', in sunlight, might get hard to sleep!).

You'd use the heat differential between the sun side and the
shadow side of the craft to generate power. Or nowadays,
solar cells on the sun side. Either way, you be able to
maintain comfortable living temperatures.

Ned

"Ned Latham" wrote in...
a425couple wrote:
peterwezeman wrote:
a425couple wrote:
I should have also sent this original post to the astronomy
group, where there is a chance someone might be interested.

Clarke *was* an astronomer. And a damned good one. And my favourie
SF author.

"The Wind from the Sun" is the name of a book by Arthur Clarke
that is a collection of all 18 short stories that Clarke wrote
between
1961 and Feb. 1972.
IMHO, a quite good collection (I'll tell about a few.)

----snip----

I will admit, I just can not fully comprehend how to maneuver
a vessel moved by the sun's rays, when you do not have
the friction of the hull or a keel in water.
But, it is obviously correct and possible and described he
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail

That article *says* proven, but offers no evidence that a light sail
can provide tacking ability.

There *is* a physical explanation though (works best if the sail
is rigid and a perfect mirror). If the sail is turned to an angle
to the sun's particle stream, those particles that strike it will
be reflected. Let's say the angle is 45 degress, and they're
refelcted tangentially. Action and reation being opposite, that
means that the sail will be pushed in a composite direction made
up of the radial propulsion and the tangential reaction. After
some lag the craft itself would respond to the composite tug on
its lines.

Managing the pendulum effect would be interesting.


I'll try a diagram here.
The space 'sailor' in the ship
wants to go to top of page.
The sun is at page right margin at
same line # as space ship.
/ = sail.
.. = rigging


/ .
/ .
/ .
/ .
/ . . . . . . .(ship) sun --



Are you (Ned) thinking the sun sailing ship
will be tacking upwards, on the page?

That is what I could do in my sailboat,
pointed to top of page, but it has a keel.
(It's a fun little 9 1/2 foot Nutshell pram!
With a Balanced Lug sail!)
https://www.google.com/search?site=&...k1.400Jk-rejUs

a425couple wrote:
Ned Lathamowrote:
a425couple wrote:
peterwezeman wrote:
a425couple wrote:
I should have also sent this original post to the astronomy
group, where there is a chance someone might be interested.

Clarke *was* an astronomer. And a damned good one. And my favourie
SF author.

"The Wind from the Sun" is the name of a book by Arthur Clarke
that is a collection of all 18 short stories that Clarke wrote
between
1961 and Feb. 1972.
IMHO, a quite good collection (I'll tell about a few.)

----snip----

I will admit, I just can not fully comprehend how to maneuver
a vessel moved by the sun's rays, when you do not have
the friction of the hull or a keel in water.
But, it is obviously correct and possible and described he
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail

That article *says* proven, but offers no evidence that a light sail
can provide tacking ability.

There *is* a physical explanation though (works best if the sail
is rigid and a perfect mirror). If the sail is turned to an angle
to the sun's particle stream, those particles that strike it will
be reflected. Let's say the angle is 45 degress, and they're
refelcted tangentially. Action and reation being opposite, that
means that the sail will be pushed in a composite direction made
up of the radial propulsion and the tangential reaction. After
some lag the craft itself would respond to the composite tug on
its lines.

Managing the pendulum effect would be interesting.

I'll try a diagram here.
The space 'sailor' in the ship
wants to go to top of page.
The sun is at page right margin at
same line # as space ship.
/ = sail.
. = rigging


/ .
/ .
/ .
/ .
/ . . . . . . .(ship) sun --


Are you (Ned) thinking the sun sailing ship
will be tacking upwards, on the page?

No. Assuming you have the sail at 45 degrees, it would be pushed
at an angle of 22.5 degrees above our page horizontal. If you kept
the sail oriented at 45 degrees rightward of radial. the direction
of its tug on the ship would gradually move rightward too; IOW,
the ship would start to behave like the bob on a pendulum.

Which means that changing direction would be very tricky indeed.

The sailot would eventually get to the top of the page, but it
would have to be a very wide page if he wanted to stay on it.

That is what I could do in my sailboat,
pointed to top of page, but it has a keel.

Yes. Makes a big difference.

(It's a fun little 9 1/2 foot Nutshell pram!
With a Balanced Lug sail!)
https://www.google.com/search?site=&...source=hp&biw=
1536&bih=765&q=balanced+lug+sail&oq=balanced+lug+s ail&gs_l=
img.3..0l2j0i30k1l2j0i24k1.2256.7165.0.9877.18.12. 0.6.6.0.288
.951.8j2j1.11.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..1.17.981.0..3 5i39k1.400Jk-rejUs

Pretty pictures. Why lug, not lateen?

Ned

Dud e. Saucers or what not zigzag upon planet magnetic fields. Slingshooting on gravity formulas #arcmichael

"Ned Latham" wrote in message ...
a425couple wrote:
Ned Lathamowrote:
a425couple wrote:
peterwezeman wrote:
a425couple wrote:
I should have also ----

Snip to reduce to only the sailboat subject/question.

That is what I could do in my sailboat,
pointed to top of page, but it has a keel.

Yes. Makes a big difference.

(It's a fun little 9 1/2 foot Nutshell pram!
With a Balanced Lug sail!)
https://www.google.com/search?site=&...source=hp&biw=
1536&bih=765&q=balanced+lug+sail&oq=balanced+lug+s ail&gs_l=
img.3..0l2j0i30k1l2j0i24k1.2256.7165.0.9877.18.12. 0.6.6.0.288
.951.8j2j1.11.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..1.17.981.0..3 5i39k1.400Jk-rejUs

Pretty pictures. Why lug, not lateen?

Simple,,, It's what it came with!!!!
So, it ended up that the nice house we wanted & bought,
happened to be an a pretty little lake.
And then 3 years ago I decided I wanted to have a
little boat with a sail & try playing that game.
Watched ads, saw the bargain!!
the Nutshell Pram boat, with mast, with sail, keel, rudder,
with 2 oars, with 'beach wheels', & with a trailer,
for $800. Got it.
It's been fun. After practice I even took it out
on a big real lake (Lake Washington, next to Seattle,
sailed from Magnussen Park / near Sail Sand Point
http://www.sailsandpoint.org/
NE to Kirkland's Champaign Point, and then back.

I can tack fairly well into wind, and not have to row home!!

Probably the learning curve would have been better with
a more normal "lateen sail" (because more might have given
advice) (or tacking would have been easier!).
But, it just does not seem to me to be worth the trouble or
expense to change the entire sail rig now.

Do you sail?

On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 8:22:10 AM UTC-8, a425couple wrote:
"Ned Latham" wrote in message ...
a425couple wrote:
Ned Lathamowrote:
a425couple wrote:
peterwezeman wrote:
a425couple wrote:
I should have also ----

Snip to reduce to only the sailboat subject/question.

That is what I could do in my sailboat,
pointed to top of page, but it has a keel.

Yes. Makes a big difference.

(It's a fun little 9 1/2 foot Nutshell pram!
With a Balanced Lug sail!)
https://www.google.com/search?site=&...source=hp&biw=
1536&bih=765&q=balanced+lug+sail&oq=balanced+lug+s ail&gs_l=
img.3..0l2j0i30k1l2j0i24k1.2256.7165.0.9877.18.12. 0.6.6.0.288
.951.8j2j1.11.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..1.17.981.0..3 5i39k1.400Jk-rejUs

Pretty pictures. Why lug, not lateen?

Simple,,, It's what it came with!!!!
So, it ended up that the nice house we wanted & bought,
happened to be an a pretty little lake.
And then 3 years ago I decided I wanted to have a
little boat with a sail & try playing that game.
Watched ads, saw the bargain!!
the Nutshell Pram boat, with mast, with sail, keel, rudder,
with 2 oars, with 'beach wheels', & with a trailer,
for $800. Got it.
It's been fun. After practice I even took it out
on a big real lake (Lake Washington, next to Seattle,
sailed from Magnussen Park / near Sail Sand Point
http://www.sailsandpoint.org/
NE to Kirkland's Champaign Point, and then back.

I can tack fairly well into wind, and not have to row home!!

Probably the learning curve would have been better with
a more normal "lateen sail" (because more might have given
advice) (or tacking would have been easier!).
But, it just does not seem to me to be worth the trouble or
expense to change the entire sail rig now.

Do you sail?

I have full page telling about me .I'm sitting in a unsinkable sailboat.Sailing in a large pond in Massachusetts.Took me 3 hours to build.Needs no trailer and cost $42 and that included the sail./Fun to build Fun to sail. With all the floods its a life saver. Can be seen in the Easthampton Gazette Sat-Sun.6-7 2013 Take a look.TreBert

a425couple wrote:
Ned Lathamwrote:

----snip----

Pretty pictures. Why lug, not lateen?

Simple,,, It's what it came with!!!!

Ah. The best reason in the world.

So, it ended up that the nice house we wanted & bought,
happened to be an a pretty little lake.
And then 3 years ago I decided I wanted to have a
little boat with a sail & try playing that game.
Watched ads, saw the bargain!!
the Nutshell Pram boat, with mast, with sail, keel, rudder,
with 2 oars, with 'beach wheels', & with a trailer,
for $800. Got it.

Jeezuz! Here in Oz it can cost that much and more p.a. for
a berth. I take it from the above that you have your own.

It's been fun. After practice I even took it out
on a big real lake (Lake Washington, next to Seattle,
sailed from Magnussen Park / near Sail Sand Point
http://www.sailsandpoint.org/
NE to Kirkland's Champaign Point, and then back.

Cool stuff. And you can flee to Canada at any time.

I can tack fairly well into wind, and not have to row home!!

Probably the learning curve would have been better with
a more normal "lateen sail" (because more might have given
advice) (or tacking would have been easier!).
But, it just does not seem to me to be worth the trouble or
expense to change the entire sail rig now.

Well, it was good enough for people whose lives depended on
it for centuries ...

Do you sail?

No. It's an interest I could never afford.

Ned

"Herbert Glazier" wrote
"I have full page telling about me who is
http://tinyurl.com/Loudmouth-Glazier-8Feb2017 [1]
Bert, the un-American Communist, Bigot, Hatemonger,
Full Swine, Face ****ter & Graveyard Vandal who does this
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/A8MGOU-CQAEaZw4.jpg

to his crowd of "Anon Y Mouse" & 8 other Bert-****-eaters
of http://tinyurl.com/Glazier-the-Lying-Swine who
freely & happily laid themselves under Glazier's Sphincter,
especially Iran's "Anon Y. Mouse"
aka Mehram Maleki
being the most fervent of Glazier's sphincter-lickers, & waits
greedily to feast on more of Bert's PFM (Poop For Maleki).

Now, there are new Bert-Turd-Eater-Aspirants in wait, like
"Peter Riedt" , plus "Greysky" aka
"Mathew Orman" , plus "Archie" aka
"Arc Michael" & Kackoby "benj"
Jacoby BJ the y/n-Judeo-Apostate, &
"James McGinn", the "Mad Ginni-pig"
and the gay kike Notrollovsky ,
"Kookjoke DeCockSuckslurper" and
Trou de cul hoosegow Silly Villain "Sylvain"
+ AP, Archie Poehl , the Lewdi,
Abhinav Lal, inferior Writer & penniless Investor

... but not one "got the picture" why Cohen said & meant:
_____ "All of you pigs, 'You must repent' " _____
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkRqQQWu_mA

ever since TB::ert Glazier introduced himself with & as....

:B:: "I am a proud Jew with a Superiority complex &
:B:: an IQ of 122", & "I do know how everything works."
:B:: "My Grandfathers had tails". -- Trebert
:B:: "Being Jewish I know this is so very true" -- Bert.
:B:: "I'm a non-bible (torra) Jew. I'm the only Jew that
:B:: got 2 form letters from two Popes". Bert
:B:: "God and religion is hocus pocus". Trebert.
:B:: __** "Why am I not loved by all?" --- Bert **__.

B:: "I'll be sitting on Benj's, Saul Levi's & HVAC's face
:B:: to take a **** & say: "Open your mouth wide".
:B:: "Hanson, I will **** on your grave. And laugh".
:B:: __** "Why am I not loved by all?" --- Bert **__.

:B:: "I left my dentures in Boston when I fled to CA
:B:: to evade my creditors & my daugher Sheri who
:B:: wanted to warehouse me in a nursing home".
:B:: I embarrass my Ggrandkids. They avoid me. Bert
:B:: "I have a Social worker to make sure that I eat
:B:: my Lithium & 21 other pills. I paint Grey Cloud."
:B:: After sex with a Cuban cigar I drink bud .Trebert
:B:: __** "Why am I not loved by all?" --- Bert **__.

:B:: "I am living in my Van that I parked illegally
:B:: on Wal-Mart's property for over a year." Bert
:B:: "I **** into a bucket in my van and then throw
:B:: the bag full of crap into Walmart's Dumpsters"
:B:: "Mayor Tait told me to get lost when I demanded
:B:: a contract to clean the city's HVAC ducts. Bert
:B:: "I'm like my half-baked bagel... back to the oven"
:B:: __** "Why am I not loved by all?" --- Bert **__.

:B:: "I am a loser & so ugly I will not vote for myself"
:B:: "I re-franchize my M&M (Maggots & Manure).".
:B:: "I sell imaginary boats and defective patio decks"
:B:: "I stole & gave G=EMC^2 to the world", which
:B:: says: "Glazier Exhibits Micro Cephalic Cretinism"
:B:: "With G=EMC^2 I made all good posters leave s.p."
:B:: All my 17 theories are well accepted by me. Bert
B:: __** "Why am I not loved by all?" --- Bert **__.

:B:: "I got kicked out of school in the 4th grade. Bert.
:B:: "I am self-taught. I'm very *cleaver* out of the box."
:B:: "My cockroach taught me a lot. My grammar stinks".
:B:: "I have lived for too long.. and always lied" Trebert.
:B:: "I called the Mental Health Hotline (800) 723-8641
:B:: spooked a lady with fearing to get shot in my head".
:B:: "I compulsively lie when I speak the truth". Trebert
:B:: __** "Why am I not loved by all?" --- Bert **__.

:B:: "While I was in custody of Osceola Sheriff Bob
:B:: Hansel, for thieving, his deputies beat me up.
:B:: Bees are my copters and Flies are my fighters.
:B:: They all die as old soldiers and just fade away.
:B:: I bought a 357 magnum for death threats by Hansel.
:B:: __** "Why am I not loved by all?" --- Bert **__.

:B:: "Even the FBI has me as a trouble maker and
:B:: the FBI blocks my phone from calling them"....
:B:: "I mixed sulfer, carb & iron to make gun powder"
:B:: "Israel will drop its first H-bomb 'David' ". TreBert
:B:: __"I'm glad when war breaks out"__ Bert
:B:: __** "Why am I not loved by all?" --- Bert **__.


PS2:
Glazier is at the bottom of the barrel of communist
US Jews who are traitors that have whored down this
nation. How they did it is seen above in [1] and why
so, is described & detailed by the eminent Jewish
Scholar Harold Wallace Rosenthal ||R:|| in his epic
http://tinyurl.com/The-HW-Rosenthal-interview-XT

"Ned Latham" wrote in message...
a425couple wrote:
Ned Lathamowrote:
a425couple wrote:
peterwezeman wrote:
a425couple wrote:
I should have also sent this original post to the astronomy
group, where there is a chance someone might be interested.

Clarke *was* an astronomer. And a damned good one. And my favourie
SF author.

"The Wind from the Sun" is the name of a book by Arthur Clarke
that is a collection of all 18 short stories that Clarke wrote
between
1961 and Feb. 1972.
IMHO, a quite good collection (I'll tell about a few.)

----snip----

I will admit, I just can not fully comprehend how to maneuver
a vessel moved by the sun's rays, when you do not have
the friction of the hull or a keel in water.
But, it is obviously correct and possible and described he
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail

That article *says* proven, but offers no evidence that a light sail
can provide tacking ability.

There *is* a physical explanation though (works best if the sail
is rigid and a perfect mirror). If the sail is turned to an angle
to the sun's particle stream, those particles that strike it will
be reflected. Let's say the angle is 45 degress, and they're
refelcted tangentially. Action and reation being opposite, that
means that the sail will be pushed in a composite direction made
up of the radial propulsion and the tangential reaction. After
some lag the craft itself would respond to the composite tug on
its lines.

Managing the pendulum effect would be interesting.

I'll try a diagram here.
The space 'sailor' in the ship
wants to go to top of page.
The sun is at page right margin at
same line # as space ship.
/ = sail.
. = rigging


/ .
/ .
/ .
/ .
/ . . . . . . .(ship) sun --


Are you (Ned) thinking the sun sailing ship
will be tacking upwards, on the page?

No. Assuming you have the sail at 45 degrees, it would be pushed
at an angle of 22.5 degrees above our page horizontal. If you kept
the sail oriented at 45 degrees rightward of radial. the direction
of its tug on the ship would gradually move rightward too; IOW,
the ship would start to behave like the bob on a pendulum.
Which means that changing direction would be very tricky indeed.
The sailot would eventually get to the top of the page, but it
would have to be a very wide page if he wanted to stay on it.

????

Please consider:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacking_(sailing)
"Beating is the procedure by which a ship moves on a zig-zag course
to make progress directly into the wind (upwind). No sailing vessel
can move directly upwind (though that may be the desired direction).
Beating allows the vessel to advance indirectly upwind.
A ship that is beating will sail as close to the wind as possible; this
position is known as close hauled. In general, the closest angle to the
wind that a ship can sail is around 35 to 45 degrees."

Can this 'solar sail spaceship' make progress, to go in the direction
of the sun?

a425couple wrote:
Ned Latham wrote:

----snip----

No. Assuming you have the sail at 45 degrees, it would be pushed
at an angle of 22.5 degrees above our page horizontal. If you kept
the sail oriented at 45 degrees rightward of radial. the direction
of its tug on the ship would gradually move rightward too; IOW,
the ship would start to behave like the bob on a pendulum.
Which means that changing direction would be very tricky indeed.
The sailot would eventually get to the top of the page, but it
would have to be a very wide page if he wanted to stay on it.

????

Please consider:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacking_(sailing)
"Beating is the procedure by which a ship moves on a zig-zag course
to make progress directly into the wind (upwind). No sailing vessel
can move directly upwind (though that may be the desired direction).
Beating allows the vessel to advance indirectly upwind.
A ship that is beating will sail as close to the wind as possible; this
position is known as close hauled. In general, the closest angle to the
wind that a ship can sail is around 35 to 45 degrees."

Can this 'solar sail spaceship' make progress, to go in the direction
of the sun?

No. Beating is possible because the vessel has a keel and a rudder,
which in combination enable the master to force the vessel onto a
tack that contains a component of movement *into* the wind. Our
solar wind space vehicle has neither keel nor rudder, and there's
no physical medium for them to function in.

See if thus diagram makes sense:

Upwind
Component
---------------- ------
Wind \ ^
\ |
\ |
\ | Sideways component
Direction of travel \ |
\ |
\ |
\|
The vessel is facing upward to the left. It's sails are too (though
not on the exact same heading). Because of the sails' heading the
force exerted pn the mast is upward to the right, but the keel and
rudder prevent the vessel from going to the right. So it follows
the keel upward to the left, thus gaining a small amount of distance
into the wind.

Ned