WATER Flowing on the Surface of Mars Today! New Images!

Compare this time-lapse image from orbit showing seasonal
water flows on Mars
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MR.../pia14472.html


With these Rover pictures taken of the Victoria Crater wall some 3 and 4
years ago
http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/167...L2L5L5L7L7.jpg

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/141...5L7L7.jpg.html

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/138...5L7L7.jpg.html

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/136...5L7L7.jpg.html

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/141...5L7L7.jpg.html

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/136...5L7L7.jpg.html

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/134...5L7L7.jpg.html

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/134...5L7L7.jpg.html

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/133...5L7L7.jpg.html

"Brad Guth" wrote in message
...


s


Did you have another wet dream?

Those aren't my words, it's the geologist from the
MSL orbiter.

"This series of images shows warm-season features that might
be evidence of salty liquid water active on Mars today."

"These times and places have peak surface temperatures from about 10 degrees
below zero Fahrenheit to 80 degree above zero Fahrenheit.."

"The features that extend down the slope during warm seasons are called
recurring slope lineae. They are narrow (one-half to five yards or meters
wide),
relatively dark markings on steep (25 to 40 degree) slopes at several
southern
hemisphere locations. Repeat imaging by HiRISE shows the features appear
and incrementally grow during warm seasons and fade in cold seasons."
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MR.../pia14472.html



Look for yourself

Obvious water flow in sequence of images.
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MR.../pia14472.html

Image Video (near the end)
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/video...a_id=104892521
MRO Home
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/main/index.html


What part of physics-101 has open water or whatever brines existing at
such a near vacuum and where it gets cold enough to make dry ice from that
thin and extremely dry amount of surrounding atmosphere?

There's no problem if the water is replenished from underground.
Water would quickly ice over, protecting it from sublimation.
Then the ice would quickly get covered in dust, which protects it
from sublimation. There's all kinds of pictures showing just such
things happen. But until now we didn't know if those water features
were millions of years old or not.

Now we know.

The fact these water flows are seasonal are an immense boost
for the possible formation of life.



Are there any active geothermal vents on Mars?

In many parts of Mars, even at the mid-latitudes, they extimate the
subsurface soil is as much as 50% water ice as shallow as 3 meters.
There are ice-ages on Mars where the extensive deposits of
near-surface water ice can, and obviously does, melt out
to this day. Probably from exposure to the sun. And Mars
is just now exiting the coldest part of the current ice age.


Jonathan


s

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

There have been plenty of signs water has flowed on the surface
of Mars, but some questions as to how long ago. Or whether water
can flow with the conditions on Mars today.

But the recent Mars Orbiter images below clearly shows seasonal
water flow ...today on the surface. It seems the briny nature of
the Martian soil and water allows this to happen even with the
thin air and cold temperatures.

These images have significant implications in the search
for life elsewhere.


Not necessarily. We know that the Martian water is going to be a very
salty brine. We know also that life can exist in salt water here on
Earth. Yet no life forms are known to thrive in pure salt. The question
therefore becomes: what is the salt content of the Martian water and do
we know of any lifeforms here on Earth that could survive there? IMHO
the answer is most likely to be 'no.' That doesn't mean there isn't
life on Mars, but it's unlikely to exist on the surface.

There have been plenty of signs water has flowed on the surface
of Mars, but some questions as to how long ago. Or whether water
can flow with the conditions on Mars today.

But the recent Mars Orbiter images below clearly shows seasonal
water flow ...today on the surface. It seems the briny nature of
the Martian soil and water allows this to happen even with the
thin air and cold temperatures.

These images have significant implications in the search
for life elsewhere.

Image Video
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/video...a_id=104892521

MRO Home
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/main/index.html


Maybe the best place to look for life on Mars would be at the bottom
of deep craters or canyons, like maybe the southern part of
Endeavor crater, which the Opportunity Rover is just now
approaching?
http://marsrover.nasa.gov/gallery/pr...deavour_br.jpg



s



s

"Anonymous Remailer (austria)" wrote in
message vacy.at...

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

There have been plenty of signs water has flowed on the surface
of Mars, but some questions as to how long ago. Or whether water
can flow with the conditions on Mars today.

But the recent Mars Orbiter images below clearly shows seasonal
water flow ...today on the surface. It seems the briny nature of
the Martian soil and water allows this to happen even with the
thin air and cold temperatures.

These images have significant implications in the search
for life elsewhere.


Not necessarily. We know that the Martian water is going to be a very
salty brine. We know also that life can exist in salt water here on
Earth. Yet no life forms are known to thrive in pure salt. The question
therefore becomes: what is the salt content of the Martian water and do
we know of any lifeforms here on Earth that could survive there? IMHO
the answer is most likely to be 'no.'

"Halophiles are extremophile organisms that thrive in environments with very
high concentrations of salt."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halophile

That doesn't mean there isn't
life on Mars, but it's unlikely to exist on the surface.

"Anonymous Remailer (austria)" wrote in
message vacy.at...

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

There have been plenty of signs water has flowed on the surface
of Mars, but some questions as to how long ago. Or whether water
can flow with the conditions on Mars today.

But the recent Mars Orbiter images below clearly shows seasonal
water flow ...today on the surface. It seems the briny nature of
the Martian soil and water allows this to happen even with the
thin air and cold temperatures.

These images have significant implications in the search
for life elsewhere.


Not necessarily. We know that the Martian water is going to be a very
salty brine.

And we would expect that when a salt water sea ...dries up.
The water on Mars didn't evaporate into space when the atmosphere
died, it mostly went ...underground.

And any dynamic system will display the /full range/ of possibilities.

Above all life requires a /persistant energy gradient/ of some kind.
In a dynamic system...somewhere...the conditions will be right.

For instance, in underground water flows, sometimes a salty
body of water finds itself streaming past some pocket or eddy
of water that has become far less salty. Life would tend to favor
the /boundary/ between them. Not one or the other.


We know also that life can exist in salt water here on
Earth. Yet no life forms are known to thrive in pure salt.


As that water flows down the slope, the soil and water would
be interacting, causing the salt content to change one way
or another over time, distance or depth. Somewhere on that slope
must be a suitable niche. Or somewhere just underground as the salt
content changes.

Change is the more important ingredient, not the specific
initial conditions. Self organized systems are NOT sensitive
to initial conditions. They settle on the optimum solution
even with widely different starting points. Like a ball spun
inside a bowl, it doesn't matter where it starts, or how fast
you spin it, it ends up on the bottom at rest every single time.


The question
therefore becomes: what is the salt content of the Martian water and do
we know of any lifeforms here on Earth that could survive there? IMHO
the answer is most likely to be 'no.' That doesn't mean there isn't
life on Mars, but it's unlikely to exist on the surface.


But just a couple of meters below the surface sits soil that's up to
50% water ice. And protected from radiation and warmed by
the sun. Just slightly underground may be a vast niche where water
and temperatures and mineral content is suitable for life.

Which is why they look to craters and canyons where that
underground niche might be melting out. There are numerous
signs of just such water flows all over Mars.

Life likes water so much since it defines the most dynamic type of
behavior possible.

"Giga2" "Giga2" just(removetheseandaddmatthe wrote in
message ...

"Anonymous Remailer (austria)" wrote in
message vacy.at...

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

There have been plenty of signs water has flowed on the surface
of Mars, but some questions as to how long ago. Or whether water
can flow with the conditions on Mars today.

But the recent Mars Orbiter images below clearly shows seasonal
water flow ...today on the surface. It seems the briny nature of
the Martian soil and water allows this to happen even with the
thin air and cold temperatures.

These images have significant implications in the search
for life elsewhere.


Not necessarily. We know that the Martian water is going to be a very
salty brine. We know also that life can exist in salt water here on
Earth. Yet no life forms are known to thrive in pure salt. The question
therefore becomes: what is the salt content of the Martian water and do
we know of any lifeforms here on Earth that could survive there? IMHO
the answer is most likely to be 'no.'


"Halophiles are extremophile organisms that thrive in environments with
very
high concentrations of salt."

Right. And also consider that in a constantly changing system, the opposite
extremes in possibility will always be displayed here and there. And between
those extremes will be the /complete range/ of values. In any dynamic
system, where the conditions are in the ballpark, there will always be a
range that the system flows across, finding just the right conditions.

So what happens as one goes below the surface of Mars? Salt content and
temperature, radiation etc will change with depth. Somewhere below
the surface must be a suitable niche for life ...provided there is constant
change taking place.

/Seeing/ the water flowing on the surface is such a great find because
it tells us the subsurface is a dynamic system now and constantly
changing. Before we could only guess if Mars died millions of years ago.

It's the difference between hunting for fossils, or for life.

It's the difference between a geological exploration of Mars
or a biological search. Those are two different things.
The current rovers were all geology, the next one is all biology.

If water is melting out, we must have some combination of
increasing temps, and decreasing salinity. Somewhere those
trends will constructively overlap.

In a purely abstract sense, water is the best source of life because
it's the most highly dynamic type of change or behavior.
Change, not water per se, is the ultimate source of Creation.

But what kind of change? Let's figure it out!

Let's abstractly derive the 'equation' of Creation as shown by the
very famous Hubble 'egg' images. It's all there.

Hubble "Eggs" in the Eagle Nebula
http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/arc...leases/1995/44

So we initially have a very large interstellar cloud of gas and dust.
And nearby some hot young stars are born, blowing the nebula
away while also concentrating it, here and there. And all it has to do
is disturb, or concentrate, the nebula enough for gravity to take over.
And like magic stars are born. So as long as the cloud is sufficiently
random, and the disturbance sufficiently strong, stars should form.

Now, the abstract version of that event!

A totally random system is randomly disturbed, resulting in
spontaneous cyclic order.

Now, what is the equation for a totally random system?

Well, from a classical or reductionist frame of our beloved
modern science, the answer would be undefined or zero.
In fact it's the one and ONLY place deterministic methods
can't define, or has no meaning.

God of the gaps! Well, there is only one gap, and that's where
Creation resides, the one place objective methods can't quantify.
A Mona-Lisa like cloud of uncertainty.

Beauty = Creation = Beauty

Now we can see the true cyclic nature of our existence.

Combine the above with The Second Law. What does it do so relentlessly?
It breaks things apart, creating more and more variables, destroying order
until nothing....NOTHING BUT a totally disordered system is left.

Such as a totally random system like a large interstellar cloud of
gas and dust. Our modern science sees the Second Law as an
obstacle to Creation. Just as it sees random interactions or chaos as
another obstacle. Combined, those two make it's hard to see
how any persistent order exists at all. Let alone something alive!

What deterministic views can't see is that one is the food for the other.
The Second Law breaks things apart, creating randomness.
Just the right conditions for spontaneous cyclic order and
self-organizing systems.

Creation emerges from a Mona-Lisa like cloud of uncertainty.
Where all the primary variables provide the /least/ amount
of deterministic information possible.

This is true for nebulas, clouds, water or emotions.

The universe makes sense, and what the universe does
first, best and every chance it gets is....Creation.
Life is no fluke, on a planet like Earth or even Mars
the question should always be why life ...didn't form.


s



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halophile

That doesn't mean there isn't
life on Mars, but it's unlikely to exist on the surface.

"Brad Guth" wrote in message
...

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

"Brad Guth" wrote in message
...

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

"Brad Guth" wrote in message
...


Did you also believe our government and their crack agencies

So you didn't look at the images then? What do you think is flowing
down those slopes? The geologist is from the University of Arizona
maybe the 'Harvard' of geology.
I've looked at least a hundred times, as well as this time.

Those folks from the University of Arizona are public funded, so they're
going to say whatever keeps them funded.


when they claimed Muslims had loads of WMD along with the logistics and
deployment capability of using such against us?

Apples and oranges. I suppose it's possible the timing of the news
was managed, since these are time-lapse studies. But so what?
If you were pulling off yet another ruse, how would you go about doing it?




Just because those with their public-funded job and benefit security
issues that are essentially betting life or death for themselves are
interpreting a wet Mars, doesn't make it so.


The pictures speak for themselves. I've been telling all of you
for some five years or more that many of the water features
on Mars are much more recent that normally thought.

You don't know how to interpret images, much less know who to trust.


I trust my own eyes. It's not unusual for Mars to be above
freezing at times. Those streams are far more likely to be
water than anything else. That's a fact not in dispute.
It's not nearly cold enough for dry ice. But the sun
beating down on some ice buried a few feet below
the surface could easily melt out into craters and such.
There's plenty of pics showing just that.





You do realize how freaking easy it is for gamma spectrometry and even
UV
spectrometry to detect water as of more than a decade ago? (apparently
not)


Yes, and did you take note of the findings? I did!
There's plenty of underground ice, and plenty of
signs it's been regularly melting out.


"New data on Mars's underground ice shows that the
red planet likely has a very active water cycle."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-mars-ice.html


Found it! Ice on Mars
May 28, 2002:

"The GRS has been mapping Mars since February 2002 and has
detected telltale signs of water ice in the upper meter (three feet)
of soil in a large region surrounding the Red Planet's south pole."

"The amount of hydrogen detected corresponds to 20% to 50% ice
by mass in the lower layer. Because rock has a greater density than
ice, this amount is more than 50 percent water ice by volume."

"The ice-rich layer is about 60 centimeters (two feet) beneath
the surface at 60 degrees south latitude, and gets to within
about 30 centimeters (one foot) of the surface at 75 degrees
south latitude."
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news...28may_marsice/



Face it, Venus just can't compete~


s

On Mon, 8 Aug 2011 20:26:11 -0400, "Jonathan" wrote in alt.atheism:


"Brad Guth" wrote in message
...

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

"Brad Guth" wrote in message
...

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

"Brad Guth" wrote in message
...


Did you also believe our government and their crack agencies

So you didn't look at the images then? What do you think is flowing
down those slopes? The geologist is from the University of Arizona
maybe the 'Harvard' of geology.
I've looked at least a hundred times, as well as this time.

Those folks from the University of Arizona are public funded, so they're
going to say whatever keeps them funded.


when they claimed Muslims had loads of WMD along with the logistics and
deployment capability of using such against us?

Apples and oranges. I suppose it's possible the timing of the news
was managed, since these are time-lapse studies. But so what?
If you were pulling off yet another ruse, how would you go about doing it?




Just because those with their public-funded job and benefit security
issues that are essentially betting life or death for themselves are
interpreting a wet Mars, doesn't make it so.


The pictures speak for themselves. I've been telling all of you
for some five years or more that many of the water features
on Mars are much more recent that normally thought.

You don't know how to interpret images, much less know who to trust.


I trust my own eyes. It's not unusual for Mars to be above
freezing at times. Those streams are far more likely to be
water than anything else. That's a fact not in dispute.
It's not nearly cold enough for dry ice. But the sun
beating down on some ice buried a few feet below
the surface could easily melt out into craters and such.
There's plenty of pics showing just that.





You do realize how freaking easy it is for gamma spectrometry and even
UV
spectrometry to detect water as of more than a decade ago? (apparently
not)


Yes, and did you take note of the findings? I did!
There's plenty of underground ice, and plenty of
signs it's been regularly melting out.


"New data on Mars's underground ice shows that the
red planet likely has a very active water cycle."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-mars-ice.html


Found it! Ice on Mars
May 28, 2002:

"The GRS has been mapping Mars since February 2002 and has
detected telltale signs of water ice in the upper meter (three feet)
of soil in a large region surrounding the Red Planet's south pole."

"The amount of hydrogen detected corresponds to 20% to 50% ice
by mass in the lower layer. Because rock has a greater density than
ice, this amount is more than 50 percent water ice by volume."

"The ice-rich layer is about 60 centimeters (two feet) beneath
the surface at 60 degrees south latitude, and gets to within
about 30 centimeters (one foot) of the surface at 75 degrees
south latitude."
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news...28may_marsice/



Face it, Venus just can't compete~

Is some of that Martian water a gawd?


--
Apostate alt.atheist #1931 SOBWAG #1
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer freelance Minion #'e'
EAC Deputy Director in Charge of Getting Paid,
Department of Redundancy Department

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure
and the intelligent are full of doubt." -- Bertrand Russell

"Mr. Worf, set phasers on "**** You" and fire at will."
-- Doc Smartass

"A psychiatrist will be tolerant, but a plastic surgeon
will help you pick your nose."
-- Rinaldo of Capadoccia


e-mail to %mynick%periodaaperiod%myAA#%@gee!mail!dottedcommi e

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

"Giga2" "Giga2" just(removetheseandaddmatthe wrote
in
message ...

"Anonymous Remailer (austria)" wrote in
message vacy.at...

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

There have been plenty of signs water has flowed on the surface
of Mars, but some questions as to how long ago. Or whether water
can flow with the conditions on Mars today.

But the recent Mars Orbiter images below clearly shows seasonal
water flow ...today on the surface. It seems the briny nature of
the Martian soil and water allows this to happen even with the
thin air and cold temperatures.

These images have significant implications in the search
for life elsewhere.


Not necessarily. We know that the Martian water is going to be a very
salty brine. We know also that life can exist in salt water here on
Earth. Yet no life forms are known to thrive in pure salt. The question
therefore becomes: what is the salt content of the Martian water and do
we know of any lifeforms here on Earth that could survive there? IMHO
the answer is most likely to be 'no.'


"Halophiles are extremophile organisms that thrive in environments with
very
high concentrations of salt."

Right. And also consider that in a constantly changing system, the
opposite
extremes in possibility will always be displayed here and there. And
between
those extremes will be the /complete range/ of values. In any dynamic
system, where the conditions are in the ballpark, there will always be a
range that the system flows across, finding just the right conditions.

So what happens as one goes below the surface of Mars? Salt content and
temperature, radiation etc will change with depth. Somewhere below
the surface must be a suitable niche for life ...provided there is
constant
change taking place.

That is true but it might need a much less hostile enviroment to get going
in the first place. We know that meteors from Mars land on the Earth so the
opposite must also be true, so perhaps it would have evolved here first and
then seeded Mars (or even the other way around is conceivable).


/Seeing/ the water flowing on the surface is such a great find because
it tells us the subsurface is a dynamic system now and constantly
changing. Before we could only guess if Mars died millions of years ago.

Yep, it hasn't quite been confirmed yet.


It's the difference between hunting for fossils, or for life.

It's the difference between a geological exploration of Mars
or a biological search. Those are two different things.
The current rovers were all geology, the next one is all biology.

If water is melting out, we must have some combination of
increasing temps, and decreasing salinity. Somewhere those
trends will constructively overlap.

In a purely abstract sense, water is the best source of life because
it's the most highly dynamic type of change or behavior.
Change, not water per se, is the ultimate source of Creation.

But what kind of change? Let's figure it out!

Let's abstractly derive the 'equation' of Creation as shown by the
very famous Hubble 'egg' images. It's all there.

Hubble "Eggs" in the Eagle Nebula
http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/arc...leases/1995/44

So we initially have a very large interstellar cloud of gas and dust.
And nearby some hot young stars are born, blowing the nebula
away while also concentrating it, here and there. And all it has to do
is disturb, or concentrate, the nebula enough for gravity to take over.
And like magic stars are born. So as long as the cloud is sufficiently
random, and the disturbance sufficiently strong, stars should form.

Now, the abstract version of that event!

A totally random system is randomly disturbed, resulting in
spontaneous cyclic order.

Now, what is the equation for a totally random system?

Well, from a classical or reductionist frame of our beloved
modern science, the answer would be undefined or zero.
In fact it's the one and ONLY place deterministic methods
can't define, or has no meaning.

God of the gaps! Well, there is only one gap, and that's where
Creation resides, the one place objective methods can't quantify.
A Mona-Lisa like cloud of uncertainty.

Beauty = Creation = Beauty

Now we can see the true cyclic nature of our existence.

Combine the above with The Second Law. What does it do so relentlessly?
It breaks things apart, creating more and more variables, destroying order
until nothing....NOTHING BUT a totally disordered system is left.

Such as a totally random system like a large interstellar cloud of
gas and dust. Our modern science sees the Second Law as an
obstacle to Creation. Just as it sees random interactions or chaos as
another obstacle. Combined, those two make it's hard to see
how any persistent order exists at all. Let alone something alive!

What deterministic views can't see is that one is the food for the other.
The Second Law breaks things apart, creating randomness.
Just the right conditions for spontaneous cyclic order and
self-organizing systems.

Creation emerges from a Mona-Lisa like cloud of uncertainty.
Where all the primary variables provide the /least/ amount
of deterministic information possible.

This is true for nebulas, clouds, water or emotions.

The universe makes sense, and what the universe does
first, best and every chance it gets is....Creation.
Life is no fluke, on a planet like Earth or even Mars
the question should always be why life ...didn't form.