Arthur C.Clarke

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:56:53 GMT, Ned Kelly
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 03:26:58 +0100, Dr Robin Bignall
sat down and wrote:

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:37:30 GMT, Ned Kelly
wrote:

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 14:16:04 +0100, Dr Robin Bignall
sat down and wrote:

On 08 Jul 2003 01:56:53 GMT, (PSmith9626) wrote:

Dear Robin,
Right. I have just finished the biography of Isador Rabi. His dad was
uneducated and worked at Odd jobs, and Rabi's opinion was that he was just as
smart as his Nobel Laureate child.
best
Penny

Uneducated does not equal stupid.

The biggest problem with the secondary modern system is that it assumes
that kids have reached their full potential at 11, which is not the case
for all by any means.

What about the brilliant children who have serious emotional issues? Do they
get a second chance?

Not under the 11+ system.

They do actually, you just don't know it!

Listen sunshine, I went through the 11+ system in 1950, as an 11 year-old
late developer with emotional problems. You don't know what you are talking
about, so I suggest you just STF up.

Not a very well thought out response and one hardly befitting to a
supposed *intellectual* person? You assume too much!

I have never called myself an intellectual. That is your inference.

In the 1950's, right up to the late 60's everyone had to do the 11+.
Not so today, only those who wish to be considered for Grammar school
need do it. It's not sudden death test as some (the anti-Grammar
school brigade) would like you to believe, if the candidate has a bad
day, or is unwell, the previous years work is taken into account and
the school will appeal on the childs behalf if they believe they are
capable of fulfilling a Grammar education. If that fails, then the
parents can lodge an appeal. If that fails then they can have another
go at 13, which many do and succeed.

That was the theory back in 1950, with the so-called 13+, but it did not
actually happen.

So don't judge today's standards on a bygone era!

If it does happen today then I am delighted, but I believe that children
today are tested almost to destruction by an education system hide-bound by
collecting statistics.

I too am a victim of sorts. I, along with thousands of others, was
one of those terrible experiments in the education system (anyone
remember the phonetic reading system?) and had no choice in school (by
test or otherwise) and went to one of those horrent comprehensive
schools. I saw first hand what can happen to supposed intelligent
people when put in the melting pot along with life's wasters.
Martin (God bless his misguided soul) would have you believe (courtesy
of Google and uk.local.kent) that the bright one's will bring up the
those who don't want to work. I work in education and all those who
work with me would agree, that his notions are complete tosh, the kids
will take the path of least resistance, so the brighter one's will dim
down just to fit in with the crowd (I know because it happend to me!).

I agree with that completely. In the 1950s, councils had the stupid notion
that one could put problem families next door to good families on council
estates, in the vain hope that the latter would influence the former and
bring them up to scratch. What happened was that the good families moved
out and whole roads came to be filled with problem families. During
university I used to deliver soft drinks from door to door during the
summer, and there were dozens of streets and closes that we were told never
to enter with a van.

BTW just for the record, I too gained more qualifications out of
school than I did in it! I did do some O levels but had to stay up
into the sixth form to do them. By then the disruptive elements had
left for their mundane jobs. Plus we are talking about the day's (pre
1980's) when leaving school without any formal qualifications was the
norm?

It certainly was 30 years earlier.

This very evening I shall be attending an OFSTED meeting at my local
grammar to discuss issues such as these.

So I *do* know what I'm talking about and well qualified to say so!

OK. You and I appear to be in furious agreement. The trouble is the whole
concept of this weeding out, and the social effect. I remember that failing
11+ was seen as a disaster by those parents who had social ambitions (my
mother did, but my father could not have cared less), yet I can't recall
that any of those kids who marched off smugly to grammar school in their
new uniforms amounted to anything afterwards.

The trouble is that our education system should be designed to bring out
the best in everyone, whether it be skill at physics or plumbing, for both
are needed. Football talent-spotters are out in schools looking for kids
good with their feet at an early age. Why do we not have
historian-spotters, or scientist-spotters or electrician-spotters? We need
all of these talents.

--

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/homepage.htm

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 19:16:03 GMT, Ned Kelly
wrote:

[snip of detail]

Ned, you and I agree about a lot of those things, but the subject is
totally OT for this astronomy group, except for the fact that astronomers
need educating before they become astronomers!

There is a group which discusses all matters regarding culture in Britain.
Education just has to be an important part of our culture, and has been
discussed on many occasions. The group is uk.culture.language.english and I
suggest we continue this discussion there.

--

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/homepage.htm

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 19:16:03 GMT, Ned Kelly
wrote:

[snip of detail]

Ned, you and I agree about a lot of those things, but the subject is
totally OT for this astronomy group, except for the fact that astronomers
need educating before they become astronomers!

There is a group which discusses all matters regarding culture in Britain.
Education just has to be an important part of our culture, and has been
discussed on many occasions. The group is uk.culture.language.english and I
suggest we continue this discussion there.

--

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/homepage.htm