Training report (observing report)

On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 9:27:07 PM UTC+1, palsing wrote:
On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 11:21:07 PM UTC-7, oriel36 wrote:



Circumpolar motion is valuable for one reason only in that it provides a reference for constant orientation of rotation...



Also, it provides an accurate a rotation time with respect to those stars, that being 23 56 04, of course...

"The farther south we go toward the equator, the lower Polaris appears in the sky and the longer the night-that is, the longer the Sun stays below the horizon and the steeper the angle it makes with the horizon as it sets and, consequently, the shorter the twilight."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...ole-sunset.htm

This is beyond outrageous as the Sun's apparent daily motion from horizon to horizon scribes an arc opposite to circumpolar motion so when even the apparent observed motions of the Sun are distorted to suit a celestial sphere mob, astronomy and the ability to reason as human beings becomes a burnt thing - a holocaust in a different version of the term.

http://www.morehead.unc.edu/Shows/EM...27s%20Path.jpg


Somebody must be feeling sick to themselves knowing to what lengths others will go to uphold what is effectively a rotating celestial sphere cult founded on a misuse of timekeeping averages and modeling motions by way of clocks in the late 17th century.

The 'training' students get is an indoctrination process as the articles which puts the Sun in an unnatural circumpolar daily arc from horizon to horizon demonstrates so when I see participants here carry on as if this were normal I have to concede that not even minimal cooperation is now possible nor even the usual hostility of any benefit in moving a topic forward.

http://www.why.do/wp-content/uploads...n-the-west.jpg

The familiar daily arc of the Sun from horizon to horizon is simply a beautiful observation as it traces out an arc opposite to the daily motion of the stars so whatever dignity any of you have left,it vanishes with the imaginative and destructive perspective that the Sun arcs with circumpolar motion daily.

Nothing left to say.

oriel36 wrote:

The familiar daily arc of the Sun from horizon to horizon is simply a
beautiful observation as it traces out an arc opposite to the daily
motion of the stars so whatever dignity any of you have left,it vanishes
with the imaginative and destructive perspective that the Sun arcs with
circumpolar motion daily.

The sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
The stars rise in the east and set in the west.
How are these motions opposite?

On Thursday, August 7, 2014 12:34:33 AM UTC-4, RichA wrote:
On Monday, August 4, 2014 12:37:44 PM UTC-4, Bill Owen wrote:

A colleague and I were asked to train about 8 or 10 camp counselors on
the use of their six 70 mm refractors. Nice instruments, f/10 with
something like 35 and 10 mm eyepieces, 1x finder with the little
battery-powered red dot, alt-az mount. We set up on a turnout on
Angeles Crest Hwy (north of Los Angeles) at about 4900 ft elevation.


Sounds like a worthwhile effort. But I wish scopes still came with only real
finderscopes of at least 30mm aperture. Reason is, red dots are useless in
the city/suburbs (where most observe) except for the brightest objects and
their little batteries die. Also, even if the telescope is used with an
diagonal, the finder is still orientated upside down and left-right so people
can learn how to accommodate that when observing.

I would even prefer a 5x24 finder over a red dot. With the aperture stop and crosshairs removed you get a 1+ magnitude gain, with about a 5-degree field and some magnification too.

OTOH, a red dot finder would make aiming my finder-less table-top Dob much easier.

On Thursday, August 7, 2014 8:19:24 AM UTC-4, Mike Collins wrote:

edit

oriel36 wrote:

edit

Can you (and others) STOP talking with the birdman? Half of this thread is taken up with arguing with that idiot.

The thread started out with the potential of being a very informative, inspiring discussion. It's still not too late.

On Thursday, August 7, 2014 1:19:24 PM UTC+1, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:



The familiar daily arc of the Sun from horizon to horizon is simply a

beautiful observation as it traces out an arc opposite to the daily

motion of the stars so whatever dignity any of you have left,it vanishes

with the imaginative and destructive perspective that the Sun arcs with

circumpolar motion daily.



The sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

The stars rise in the east and set in the west.

How are these motions opposite?

Observations of the motions of the Sun and stars have been going on since remote antiquity as were the attempt to explain what those motions were to us from the surface of the Earth. The astronomy inherited from the great geocentric astronomers and their detailed study of the motions of the Sun and stars set the groundwork for the astronomers 500 years ago who translated those observations into the motions of the Earth and the structure of the solar system with the Sun at the center. You are the only people ever to distort the actual apparent motions of the Sun in order to suit a conclusion and especially as the daily arc of the Sun from horizon to horizon does not follow circumpolar motion as your awful celestial sphere ideologies require.

For the last time - the Sun's daily arc from horizon to horizon scribes an opposite arc to circumpolar motion -

http://www.why.do/wp-content/uploads...n-the-west.jpg

http://www.photosbykev.com/wordpress...master_web.jpg

I can't even imagine what type of mind could resort to putting the Sun's apparent motion in circumpolar motion but it hasn't stopped your celestial sphere cult from trying thereby putting you outside an astronomical heritage which stretches back so far in human history -

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...ole-sunset.htm

You have no dignity,no sense of shame and certainly no love of astronomy for while being unable to translate apparent motions into actual motions can be forgiven, distorting even the apparent motions cannot.

The words of Galileo are appropriate but not to anyone in this forum as they assign an unnatural daily arc of the Sun from horizon to horizon,these words are meant for those who truly admire even the apparent motions themselves including the variations in the arc of the Sun daily and seasonally -

"Copernicus himself knew the power over our ideas that is exerted by custom and by our inveterate way of conceiving things since infancy. Hence, in order not to increase for us the confusion and difficulty of abstraction, after he had first demonstrated that the motions which appear to us to belong to the sun or to the firmament are really not there but in the earth, he went on calling them motions of the sun and of the heavens when he later constructed his tables to apply them to use. He thus speaks of "sunrise" and "sunset," of the "rising and
setting" of the stars, of changes in the obliquity of the ecliptic and of variations in the equinoctial points, of the mean motion and variations in motion of the sun, and so on. All these things really relate to the earth, but since we are fixed to the earth and consequently share in its every motion, we cannot discover them in the earth directly, and are obliged to refer them to the heavenly bodies in which they make their appearance to us. Hence we name them as if they took place where they appear to us to take place; and from this
one may see how natural it is to accommodate things to our customary way of seeing them." Galileo

wrote:
On Thursday, August 7, 2014 8:19:24 AM UTC-4, Mike Collins wrote:

edit

oriel36 wrote:

edit

Can you (and others) STOP talking with the birdman? Half of this thread
is taken up with arguing with that idiot.

The thread started out with the potential of being a very informative,
inspiring discussion. It's still not too late.

Yes, you're quite right. If he answers here I'll reply in one of his
threads.
On the subject of finders for small telescopes my first scope - a second
hand 4 inch Newtonian - the finder was what I assumed to be an ex-military
gunsight. It is made of brass and the optics have no magnification but
there was an illuminated internal crosshair. It was surprisingly effective
and I even tried using it on my current 8 inch F6 Newtonian until I moved
from a city to a less light polluted rural location.

On Thursday, August 7, 2014 3:58:28 PM UTC+1, Mike Collins wrote:
wrote:

On Thursday, August 7, 2014 8:19:24 AM UTC-4, Mike Collins wrote:



edit



oriel36 wrote:



edit



Can you (and others) STOP talking with the birdman? Half of this thread

is taken up with arguing with that idiot.



The thread started out with the potential of being a very informative,

inspiring discussion. It's still not too late.



Yes, you're quite right. If he answers here I'll reply in one of his

threads.


At least with your spectacularly odd motion of the Sun in a circumpolar arc around Polaris it was hitting a perspective rock bottom however you could recover by returning to a stable view which separates circumpolar arcs from the Sun's daily arc in the opposite direction. You must be truly desperate to go in the direction of a type of drudgery which isn't life nor living - more an empty shell of existence and in a way I am sorry you chose that route to a mindless oblivion with no connection to creation and the great cycles that encompass our existence.

Schools out !.

On 8/4/2014 12:37 PM, Bill Owen wrote:
A colleague and I were asked to train about 8 or 10 camp counselors on
the use of their six 70 mm refractors. Nice instruments, f/10 with
something like 35 and 10 mm eyepieces, 1x finder with the little
battery-powered red dot, alt-az mount. We set up on a turnout on
Angeles Crest Hwy (north of Los Angeles) at about 4900 ft elevation.

The counselors were all high school students -- one was already quite
knowledgeable about astronomy but I don't think had ever used a
telescope (all book learning) -- they all were very excited to be there.

Most of them dutifully installed their right-angle prism. Not I. And I
had a chance to teach one of the kids how to point the telescope with
both eyes open -- you know the trick, how to center the object as seen
by your "off" eye in the field of view of the telescope that you're
seeing with your "on" eye, and how as you got close the magnified
version would appear in the telescope. It took some explaining, but she
finally got it -- and the "oh wow!" when Saturn appeared made the whole
trip worthwhile. That, and just spending time under the Milky Way
pointing out the constellations and telling their stories.

We stayed until about 10:30, looked the crescent moon, Mars and Saturn,
Albireo (my colleague called it "the UCLA star" to the dismay of the USC
fans present), epsilon Lyrae ... M31 was a good target although it was
still low in the NE ... don't know if any of them found M57 although we
mentioned it.

I love doing this sort of thing. Not only is it fun to spread the joy
and wonder of the night sky, it also helps me stay in touch with my roots.

-- Bill Owen


I've always felt that all the outreaches I've been a part of (around
100) are some of the most important things I've ever done !

Thank You for doing this.

On 08/07/14 05:59, wrote:
On Thursday, August 7, 2014 12:34:33 AM UTC-4, RichA wrote:
On Monday, August 4, 2014 12:37:44 PM UTC-4, Bill Owen wrote:

A colleague and I were asked to train about 8 or 10 camp counselors on
the use of their six 70 mm refractors. Nice instruments, f/10 with
something like 35 and 10 mm eyepieces, 1x finder with the little
battery-powered red dot, alt-az mount. We set up on a turnout on
Angeles Crest Hwy (north of Los Angeles) at about 4900 ft elevation.


Sounds like a worthwhile effort. But I wish scopes still came with only real
finderscopes of at least 30mm aperture. Reason is, red dots are useless in
the city/suburbs (where most observe) except for the brightest objects and
their little batteries die. Also, even if the telescope is used with an
diagonal, the finder is still orientated upside down and left-right so people
can learn how to accommodate that when observing.

I would even prefer a 5x24 finder over a red dot. With the aperture stop and crosshairs removed you get a 1+ magnitude gain, with about a 5-degree field and some magnification too.

OTOH, a red dot finder would make aiming my finder-less table-top Dob much easier.

Yeah, I much prefer a real finder too, but you have to play the hand
you're dealt. And let's face it, most of the counselors (to say nothing
of their charges) will get the greatest pleasure from looking at bright
objects. Looking at faint fuzzies is an acquired taste, and using
averted vision to see them is an acquired art.

-- Bill

On Thursday, August 7, 2014 5:48:55 PM UTC-4, Bill Owen wrote:

Yeah, I much prefer a real finder too, but you have to play the hand
you're dealt. And let's face it, most of the counselors (to say nothing
of their charges) will get the greatest pleasure from looking at bright
objects. Looking at faint fuzzies is an acquired taste, and using
averted vision to see them is an acquired art.

Of course a finder would add enough to the price of the scope that ultimately fewer scopes would be sold, with fewer amateur astronomers as a result.