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US captured V-1 missile tests 1949 - 1951



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 14th 09, 05:27 PM posted to sci.space.history
Rick Jones[_3_]
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Default US captured V-1 missile tests 1949 - 1951

I'd not known (not that I'd been looking...) that the Polaris was four
solids operating in parallel, but that is how it appears in several of
those shots in the video.

rick jones
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  #22  
Old September 14th 09, 07:54 PM posted to sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Default US captured V-1 missile tests 1949 - 1951

Derek Lyons wrote:
I'm still laughing over some of those Polaris failures on the YouTube
video I found - particularly the one where the missile gets launched,
the motor doesn't ignite, it falls back into the water, there's a big
commotion under the water, and then the second stage comes flying out of
the water at around a 45 degree angle with its engine firing.


I suspect the range safety system may be the cause of the
'commotion'...

It's interesting however just how much the 2nd stage displayed a
tendency towards independent flight.



Yeah, it does go wild on occasion, but it seems to at least ignite
without exploding.
I was wondering if that was due to flame from the exploding first stage
going up its nozzles and igniting the second stage fuel, or if ignition
is activated by the first stage separating, and it thinks it's
undergoing a normal staging event.
Did you see that video BTW? One of the last launches is a Polaris A-3
that comes out of the tube only to have the entire second stage and
warhead assembly immediately detach as it leaves the tube. That time the
second stage doesn't ignite, and just topples into the sea.

Pat
  #23  
Old September 14th 09, 08:45 PM posted to sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Default US captured V-1 missile tests 1949 - 1951

Rick Jones wrote:
I'd not known (not that I'd been looking...) that the Polaris was four
solids operating in parallel, but that is how it appears in several of
those shots in the video.


Four nozzles on a single engine grain (Minuteman uses the same four
nozzle arrangement on its first stage):
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...-a-cutaway.jpg
Three different systems of steering were used on the Polaris series of
missiles: jetavators, rotating nozzles, and fluid injection.
They are described he
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/slbm/a-2.htm
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/slbm/a-3.htm

Pat
  #24  
Old September 14th 09, 09:06 PM posted to sci.space.history
Rick Jones[_3_]
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Default US captured V-1 missile tests 1949 - 1951

Pat Flannery wrote:
Rick Jones wrote:
I'd not known (not that I'd been looking...) that the Polaris was four
solids operating in parallel, but that is how it appears in several of
those shots in the video.


Four nozzles on a single engine grain (Minuteman uses the same four
nozzle arrangement on its first stage):
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...-a-cutaway.jpg


My recollection of viewing the youtube video was seeing four distinct
glowing circles on both ends of the first stage when it was tumbling
around doing its Roman Candle thing, which is what led me to believe
it was four parallel solids. Like say the sequence starting at ~02:15
if I'm still watching the same footage. Am I just seeing the nozzle
end each time when I see the four glowing circles?

rick jones

I like how the film was reversed at ~05:15 with the speed limit sign
reading backwards

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  #25  
Old September 14th 09, 10:10 PM posted to sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Default US captured V-1 missile tests 1949 - 1951

Rick Jones wrote:-polaris-a-cutaway.jpg

My recollection of viewing the youtube video was seeing four distinct
glowing circles on both ends of the first stage when it was tumbling
around doing its Roman Candle thing, which is what led me to believe
it was four parallel solids. Like say the sequence starting at ~02:15
if I'm still watching the same footage. Am I just seeing the nozzle
end each time when I see the four glowing circles?



I just rewatched it, and it looks like the four spots were on the same
end all the way through. There is a point where the flame coming out of
the top looks irregular in shape, but that could be either due to the
star-shaped central bore of the engine grain, or remnants of the top
dome of the engine after it ruptured. It looks like it started leaking
and then failed almost immediately after launch, as the black smoke that
engulfs the lower part of the stage just before the explosion seems to
come from the area at the top of the first stage.
Note that as it tumbles a lot more fire comes out of one end than the
other, and the end with the four nozzles is the one with the least fire
coming out of it, as the whole top dome has pretty much disintegrated,
leaving the top of the stage pretty much a open pipe.
That's even more noticeable on the failure that starts a 3:50.

I like how the film was reversed at ~05:15 with the speed limit sign
reading backwards


Hadn't caught that, but it is indeed. :-)


Pat
  #26  
Old September 14th 09, 10:23 PM posted to sci.space.history
Rick Jones[_3_]
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Default US captured V-1 missile tests 1949 - 1951

Pat Flannery wrote:
Rick Jones wrote:-polaris-a-cutaway.jpg

My recollection of viewing the youtube video was seeing four
distinct glowing circles on both ends of the first stage when it
was tumbling around doing its Roman Candle thing, which is what
led me to believe it was four parallel solids. Like say the
sequence starting at ~02:15 if I'm still watching the same
footage. Am I just seeing the nozzle end each time when I see the
four glowing circles?



I just rewatched it, and it looks like the four spots were on the
same end all the way through. There is a point where the flame
coming out of the top looks irregular in shape, but that could be
either due to the star-shaped central bore of the engine grain, or
remnants of the top dome of the engine after it ruptured.


What then "routes" the exhaust from the "one big chunk" of propellant
to the four separate nozzles? I'd have thought that was a rather
difficult thing to construct such that it didn't melt. The nozzles
can radiate and/or ablate, but that "plumbing" wouldn't have those
options would it?

rick jones
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  #27  
Old September 14th 09, 11:16 PM posted to sci.space.history
Dr J R Stockton[_45_]
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Default US captured V-1 missile tests 1949 - 1951

In sci.space.history message ,
Mon, 14 Sep 2009 03:18:12, Derek Lyons posted:
Dr J R Stockton wrote:


For a solid, assuming that the case bursts, rather than the propellant
actually detonating, the initial bang may be no more than a warship
should be designed to accept from enemy munitions.


You have utterly no fecking clue what you are talking about - that
'initial bang' [that a warship is capable of enduring] is equivalent
of a solid motor roughly big enough to toss a potato the length of a
football pitch... I.E. insignificiant.


Evidently you have only served in shoddy ships. The HMS Vanguard which
I have been on was much more solidly built. So was the paddle steamer
to the Isle of Wight (or Swanage). I did write, and you did quote,
"should".

A motor which can toss a murphy (typically 0.15 kg) 100 metres will be
able to impart to it less energy than the murphy will have on falling
from about 35 metres. That's substantially less energy than is involved
in a portly CPO tripping over a bollard and falling flat on his face on
the deck - or by a particularly large hailstone.



AISB : when does the following take effect? :

Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL



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  #28  
Old September 15th 09, 12:02 AM posted to sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Default US captured V-1 missile tests 1949 - 1951

Rick Jones wrote:
What then "routes" the exhaust from the "one big chunk" of propellant
to the four separate nozzles? I'd have thought that was a rather
difficult thing to construct such that it didn't melt. The nozzles
can radiate and/or ablate, but that "plumbing" wouldn't have those
options would it?


The four nozzles are attached to the domed bottom of the propellant
casing, and there's a gap between them and the flat bottom of the
propellant grain, so the gas exits them all equally from that plenum area.
Both the Mercury and Apollo LES motors used a similar
single-grain-multiple-nozzle arrangement.

Pat
  #29  
Old September 15th 09, 12:16 AM posted to sci.space.history
Rick Jones[_3_]
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Default US captured V-1 missile tests 1949 - 1951

Pat Flannery wrote:
The four nozzles are attached to the domed bottom of the propellant
casing, and there's a gap between them and the flat bottom of the
propellant grain, so the gas exits them all equally from that plenum
area. Both the Mercury and Apollo LES motors used a similar
single-grain-multiple-nozzle arrangement.


Fair enough - what then should I make of this:

http://www.vectorsite.net/Ywpol_1m.jpg
http://www.vectorsite.net/Ywpol_1b.jpg

(sorry for the length) which is captioned at:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DN%26um%3D1

As "Polaris first stage solid rocket motor, ATK rocket park, Utah / 2008" ?

rick
(got there googling for "polaris first stage motor")
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  #30  
Old September 15th 09, 05:24 AM posted to sci.space.history
Derek Lyons
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Default US captured V-1 missile tests 1949 - 1951

Rick Jones wrote:

I'd not known (not that I'd been looking...) that the Polaris was four
solids operating in parallel, but that is how it appears in several of
those shots in the video.


It doesn't have four solids operating in parallel - it has a single
solid with four nozzles.

D.
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-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
 




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