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Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year.



 
 
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  #31  
Old June 9th 11, 02:44 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.space.history
Bob Haller
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Posts: 3,197
Default Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year.

On Jun 9, 9:37*am, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 8/06/2011 10:57 PM, Jeff Findley wrote:





In ,
says...


On 8/06/2011 6:08 AM, Marvin the Martian wrote:
BFD.


I'm sorry, but there are private companies out there putting things into
orbit RIGHT NOW.


What this "Virgin Galactic" thing is, is a big sounding rocket.


BFD! They can't do NOW with today's technology what NASA and North
American Aviation was doing in 1959 with the X-15. This is literally half
a century old technology here.


Why are people so fascinated with this silly program?


Because they've been deceived into thinking it's a stepping stone to
real space tourism, which it isn't.


What is "real space tourism" and why don't suborbital flights count?


I mean it's not a stepping stone. In particular, it's not a stepping
stone to space tourism that involves orbiting the planet.

Sylvia.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


So wilbur and orville werent the creator of a stepping stone to jet
flight?
  #32  
Old June 9th 11, 02:49 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.space.history
Jeff Findley
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Posts: 5,012
Default Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year.

In article , lid
says...

On 8/06/2011 10:57 PM, Jeff Findley wrote:
In ,
lid
says...

On 8/06/2011 6:08 AM, Marvin the Martian wrote:
BFD.

I'm sorry, but there are private companies out there putting things into
orbit RIGHT NOW.

What this "Virgin Galactic" thing is, is a big sounding rocket.

BFD! They can't do NOW with today's technology what NASA and North
American Aviation was doing in 1959 with the X-15. This is literally half
a century old technology here.

Why are people so fascinated with this silly program?

Because they've been deceived into thinking it's a stepping stone to
real space tourism, which it isn't.


What is "real space tourism" and why don't suborbital flights count?


I mean it's not a stepping stone. In particular, it's not a stepping
stone to space tourism that involves orbiting the planet.


It's a stepping stone in the sense that the Wright Flyer was a stepping
stone to a Boeing 747. What's lacking in manned spaceflight is the lack
of obvious (profitable) stepping stones between something like Spaceship
Two and the much sought after practical passenger carrying LEO capable
spacecraft.

Luckily companies like SpaceX are working hard on lowering launch costs,
which should enable more profitable LEO space tourism at some point in
the future. Right now the "only game in town" is Soyuz, and it's a bit
pricey, even when you consider that Russian launch costs have been
considered "low" for decades.

What Spaceship Two will do is show whether or not the business model
works. If it does, there will be more incentive to take the big leap to
LEO capable passenger carrying spacecraft.

Jeff
--
" Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry
Spencer 1/28/2011
  #33  
Old June 9th 11, 03:12 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.space.history
Sylvia Else[_2_]
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Posts: 458
Default Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year.

On 9/06/2011 11:44 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Jun 9, 9:37 am, Sylvia wrote:
On 8/06/2011 10:57 PM, Jeff Findley wrote:





In ,
says...


On 8/06/2011 6:08 AM, Marvin the Martian wrote:
BFD.


I'm sorry, but there are private companies out there putting things into
orbit RIGHT NOW.


What this "Virgin Galactic" thing is, is a big sounding rocket.


BFD! They can't do NOW with today's technology what NASA and North
American Aviation was doing in 1959 with the X-15. This is literally half
a century old technology here.


Why are people so fascinated with this silly program?


Because they've been deceived into thinking it's a stepping stone to
real space tourism, which it isn't.


What is "real space tourism" and why don't suborbital flights count?


I mean it's not a stepping stone. In particular, it's not a stepping
stone to space tourism that involves orbiting the planet.

Sylvia.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


So wilbur and orville werent the creator of a stepping stone to jet
flight?


You might say that. I haven't.

The issue is that there are no incremental steps from Virgin Galactic to
orbital flight. In particular, their reentry system just cannot be
developed in that direction.

It's like trying to get from a hot air balloon to a jet aircraft by
incremental steps. It doesn't work. You have to throw away the balloon
and start from scratch.

Sylvia.
  #34  
Old June 9th 11, 04:49 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.space.history
Jochem Huhmann
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Posts: 606
Default Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year.

Jeff Findley writes:

I've got to disagree. When you're flying high enough above the earth
that the vehicle is flying through vacuum then that vehicle is flying in
space. Flying people in space on a relatively short suborbital trip is
manned space tourism as much as a 20 minute sight seeing helicopter ride
is aviation.


But is a journey that takes 20 minutes or so "tourism"?

From Wikipedia:

The World Tourism Organization defines tourists as people who "travel to
and stay in places outside their usual environment for more than
twenty-four (24) hours and not more than one consecutive year for
leisure, business and other purposes not related to the exercise of an
activity remunerated from within the place visited."

I have no problems with calling suborbital rides spaceflight (albeit a
short flight), but the word "tourism" feels just... wrong.


Jochem

--
"A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no
longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
  #35  
Old June 10th 11, 12:50 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.space.history
Robert Clark
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Posts: 1,150
Default Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year.

On Jun 9, 9:37 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 8/06/2011 10:57 PM, Jeff Findley wrote:
...
What is "real space tourism" and why don't suborbital flights count?


I mean it's not a stepping stone. In particular, it's not a stepping
stone to space tourism that involves orbiting the planet.

Sylvia


It can be. You have to learn how to crawl before you can walk. The US
launched many suborbital sounding rockets before Explorer I was
successfully placed into orbit.
If we are to make a comparison of the step from suborbital flight to
orbital flight I prefer to looked at staged rockets, rather than air
launched vehicles such as the X-15 and SpaceShipTwo. The reason is the
X-15 didn't lead directly to an orbital flight program.
The other suborbital tourism ventures besides Virgin Galactic will be
using vertically launched rockets rather than air launched vehicles.
They expect to be making their first test flights this year or the
next. I'm pretty confident they can accomplish at least unmanned
suborbital flights within this time frame.
The Redstone family of rockets capable of suborbital flight led to
orbital versions:

Redstone (rocket family).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redstone_(rocket_family)

According to this page, the first unmanned suborbital flight took
place in 1953. This led to a upgraded version launching Explorer I to
orbit in 1958.


Bob Clark
  #36  
Old June 10th 11, 04:29 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.space.history
Jeff Findley
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Posts: 5,012
Default Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year.

In article , says...

Jeff Findley writes:

I've got to disagree. When you're flying high enough above the earth
that the vehicle is flying through vacuum then that vehicle is flying in
space. Flying people in space on a relatively short suborbital trip is
manned space tourism as much as a 20 minute sight seeing helicopter ride
is aviation.


But is a journey that takes 20 minutes or so "tourism"?

From Wikipedia:

The World Tourism Organization defines tourists as people who "travel to
and stay in places outside their usual environment for more than
twenty-four (24) hours and not more than one consecutive year for
leisure, business and other purposes not related to the exercise of an
activity remunerated from within the place visited."

I have no problems with calling suborbital rides spaceflight (albeit a
short flight), but the word "tourism" feels just... wrong.


Ok, I give. Maybe it's not "tourism", it's a "theme park ride" where
the spaceport is the "theme park" and the trip on Spaceship Two is the
"theme park ride".

Whatever we want to call it, it could lead to "tourism" if it's
profitable enough to cause investors to take the big leap and invest in
actual orbital "tourism" (i.e. something like Bigelow's proposed space
station).

Jeff
--
" Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry
Spencer 1/28/2011
  #37  
Old June 10th 11, 05:20 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,465
Default Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year.

On 6/9/2011 5:49 AM, Jeff Findley wrote:

What Spaceship Two will do is show whether or not the business model
works. If it does, there will be more incentive to take the big leap to
LEO capable passenger carrying spacecraft.


That's the big question... my theory is that they will get passengers at
the beginning, particularly if they drop the ticket price to $20,000
instead of $200,000, but pretty soon the novelty of the whole thing will
wear off, particularly given the short flight duration, and the
passengers will dry up.
They've got a real problem because of SpaceShipTwo's small passenger
capacity; total per flight and infrastructure costs of the system have
to be supported by a very limited number of ticket sales, and that means
the tickets are going to have to cost several thousand dollars each just
to break even, much less make a profit.

Pat
  #38  
Old June 10th 11, 05:25 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,465
Default Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year.

On 6/9/2011 7:49 AM, Jochem Huhmann wrote:

But is a journey that takes 20 minutes or so "tourism"?

From Wikipedia:

The World Tourism Organization defines tourists as people who "travel to
and stay in places outside their usual environment for more than
twenty-four (24) hours and not more than one consecutive year for
leisure, business and other purposes not related to the exercise of an
activity remunerated from within the place visited."

I have no problems with calling suborbital rides spaceflight (albeit a
short flight), but the word "tourism" feels just... wrong.


Particularly since the spacecraft takes off and lands at the same airfield.
I'm surprised they didn't look into flying it from the launch site to
another city in the region, so at least you could say you went somewhere
during the flight...right now all they've got is the world's most
expensive amusement park ride.

Pat
  #39  
Old June 11th 11, 04:17 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,465
Default Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year.

On 6/10/2011 7:29 AM, Jeff Findley wrote:
Whatever we want to call it, it could lead to "tourism" if it's
profitable enough to cause investors to take the big leap and invest in
actual orbital "tourism" (i.e. something like Bigelow's proposed space
station).


I still want to see how they handle the space sickness problem on that
if they build it; if you aren't sick enough from going into zero g on on
the trip up to it, the vomit smell in the station itself will be exactly
what it takes to bring up dinner from three days ago. ;-)

Pat
  #40  
Old June 11th 11, 11:35 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.space.history
Jochem Huhmann
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Posts: 606
Default Private, uncrewed, suborbital test flights to start this year.

Pat Flannery writes:

On 6/10/2011 7:29 AM, Jeff Findley wrote:
Whatever we want to call it, it could lead to "tourism" if it's
profitable enough to cause investors to take the big leap and invest in
actual orbital "tourism" (i.e. something like Bigelow's proposed space
station).


I still want to see how they handle the space sickness problem on that
if they build it; if you aren't sick enough from going into zero g on on
the trip up to it, the vomit smell in the station itself will be exactly
what it takes to bring up dinner from three days ago. ;-)


Exposing the station to a good bit of hard vacuum between visits should
fix this. ;-)


Jochem

--
"A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no
longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 




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