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Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 15th 06, 03:17 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity,sci.astro
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Default Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

Joe Jakarta wrote:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...4583414B7F0000

"One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer
anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA
launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the
craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both
spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles
per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as
far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that
the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they
fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions. The strange
behavior sparked several theories, but the lack of data made culling
the ideas difficult. Now a proposal to analyze telemetry from the early
years could literally point toward the correct explanation.

"The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft
themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation,
perhaps. Over the years, however, researchers increasingly viewed this
hypothesis as less likely, and some physicists began to explore
possible flaws in Newton's laws and relativity. Others posited that
dark matter was the culprit: it might exert a gravitational or drag
force. A third theory embraces the idea that a minute acceleration
exists in the velocity of light, which might result in the appearance
that the probes are slowing down: if light travels faster, telemetry
signals arrive faster, and the craft seem to be closer.

"Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National
Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the
interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be
different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it
should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should
be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the
direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of
inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes,
it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..."

(Alexander Hellemans, "A Force to Reckon With: What applied the brakes
on Pioneer 10 and 11? ", Scientific American, 10 October 1995)


Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?

Gentlemen

The Primary data set may be viewed at:

Study of the Pioneer Anomaly:
A Problem Set Slava G. Turyshev,
Michael Martin Nieto,
and John D. Anderson
(Dated: September 6, 2005)
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0502123

Summary Motion data:

Pioneer 10 about 28,000 mph 1,250,000 cm/sec (sun reference)
Pioneer 11 about 26,000 mph 1,160,000 cm/sec (sun reference)
with deceleration for both at (8.74 ± 1.33) x 10^(-8) cm/sec2
(5.99 ± 0.01) x 10^(-9) Hz/s
and the pioneer spacecraft rotational spin rates
Pioneer 10 about 4 rpm (2,581 cm/sec tip speed)
Pioneer 11 about 7 rpm (4,517 cm/sec tip speed)
with deceleration for both at .0067 rpm/year
Moment of inertia = 5.88E9 g cm^2
Mass = 241,000 gram
Area = 58,965 cm2


Logically
It can be concluded that
deceleration is independent of observation coordinate
or other words

force points toward the sun
and also
force points toward Earth
and also
force points in the direction of motion
and also
force points along the spin axis of the probes
and also (an important point not noted by Anderson et al)
force points along the rotation tip angular direction of the probes

Perhaps analysis of archival data will show this more clearly.

Richard
  #12  
Old June 15th 06, 03:24 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity,sci.astro
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Default Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous


Rising-Star8471 asked:

Given the numbers from the previous posts, does anyone have
any idea what the mass of an unseen object would have to be
to cause the speed discrepincy?


The mass depends on its distance from Pioneer. A larger
mass would be farther away; a smaller one would be closer.
But the mass would have to be fairly small or it would
affect other bodies in the Solar System. It doesn't.
Also, since the effect on the spacecraft was constant for
more than a decade, the masses would have to be following
the spacecraft at a constant distance behind them. The
masses would have to be approximately in line between the
Earth and the spacecraft, a short distance behind them.
And since the Pioneers were slowing down, in order to
maintain a constant distance, the masses would have to
be slowing down, too.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

  #13  
Old June 15th 06, 05:00 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity,sci.astro
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Default Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous


Jeff Root wrote:
Rising-Star8471 asked:

Given the numbers from the previous posts, does anyone have
any idea what the mass of an unseen object would have to be
to cause the speed discrepincy?


The mass depends on its distance from Pioneer. A larger
mass would be farther away; a smaller one would be closer.
But the mass would have to be fairly small or it would
affect other bodies in the Solar System. It doesn't.
Also, since the effect on the spacecraft was constant for
more than a decade, the masses would have to be following
the spacecraft at a constant distance behind them. The
masses would have to be approximately in line between the
Earth and the spacecraft, a short distance behind them.
And since the Pioneers were slowing down, in order to
maintain a constant distance, the masses would have to
be slowing down, too.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis


Then I would have to go with dust. It appears that they are both
traveling the plane of the eclipic, where as the voyagers are both far
above and far below the ecliptic. Its possible that the solar system
still has dust rings beyond the orbit of Neptune that are leftovers
from planetry development. We woulnt neccisarly notice from here
because this dust would have always there to us, We dont have a "dust
free: enviroment to compare the observations to. This would also
explain why it happened to both probes, and the following body of mass
theroy. The probe is still plowing through the dust. When its speed
stablizes, it will have gone through the other side.

Star

  #14  
Old June 15th 06, 05:54 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity,sci.astro
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Default Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous


"Finder" wrote in message
reenews.net...


Their model is very slightly off, and needs no adjusting.

Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent!

I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway.

It's 8,000 miles per year. Add it up since the early 1980's and you have a
big problem with gravitational theory.

Greysky


  #15  
Old June 15th 06, 06:22 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity,sci.astro
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Default Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous


greysky wrote:
"Finder" wrote in message
reenews.net...


Their model is very slightly off, and needs no adjusting.

Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent!

I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway.

It's 8,000 miles per year. Add it up since the early 1980's and you have a
big problem with gravitational theory.

Greysky




OK OK jeeeeezzzze Ill turn the tractor beam off already.......all ya
had to do was ask

208000 miles total, is it still slowing down or has the speed
stablized, if it stablized, then when.

Im still sold on dust. A dust ring around the edge of the solar system
would have been undetectable by the voyager series.

PLUS it would account for both probes slowing down......

I dont think its bad math on NASAs part simply because once upon a time
it was moving at a certain rate with nonthing detectable that would
slow it down. That factor has changed. Something HAS interacted with it
to slow it down, we just dont know what.

But we can say what its not.......

Its NOT a planet
Its NOT a star
Its NOT a moon
Its not ANY ONE object that can be in solar orbit (.)
It CANNOT be an object in which the solar system is bound. If it is
gravity, then the probe should have been deflected off course, I have
not seen any data indicating this.

Not to mention that any one of the aformentioned possiblites would have
only effected ONE of the probes (Although I think of the trojen
asteriods trapped by Jupiter and wonder, but then again these objects
are in orbit and not traveling in a straight line)

What does that leave us that naturally occurs in space?

Dust
Gas
Solar Wind (or similarly classified phenominon)
cosmic rays?

Im going to stick with dust ........

We have observed dust "rings" (not to be confused with spherical clouds
of debri) around other stars in nature, why not our own? Perhaps its
this very dust that obscures our view of the center of the galaxy, and
not dust from the spiral arm as some beilive?.


Of course, the probe could have been reprogrammed in transit by another
life form to "seek out its creator" and now its slowing down to turn
around and come home


Star

  #16  
Old June 15th 06, 11:08 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity,sci.astro
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Default Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous


"greysky" wrote in message
.net...

"Finder" wrote in message
reenews.net...


Their model is very slightly off, and needs no adjusting.

Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent!

I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway.

It's 8,000 miles per year. Add it up since the early 1980's and you have a
big problem with gravitational theory.



Bullpuppy.

It travels 236,520,000 in one year, and it is within 0.000338% of expected.

The mass of the sun is not known to that precision, nor the mass of the
spacecraft.


  #17  
Old June 16th 06, 12:38 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity,sci.astro
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Default Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

ca314159 wrote in
:

Joe Jakarta wrote:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...330-A54583414B
7F0000

"One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer
anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA
launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the
craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both
spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles
per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as
far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that
the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they
fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions. The strange
behavior sparked several theories, but the lack of data made culling
the ideas difficult. Now a proposal to analyze telemetry from the early
years could literally point toward the correct explanation.

"The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft
themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation,
perhaps. Over the years, however, researchers increasingly viewed this
hypothesis as less likely, and some physicists began to explore
possible flaws in Newton's laws and relativity. Others posited that
dark matter was the culprit: it might exert a gravitational or drag
force. A third theory embraces the idea that a minute acceleration
exists in the velocity of light, which might result in the appearance
that the probes are slowing down: if light travels faster, telemetry
signals arrive faster, and the craft seem to be closer.

"Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National
Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the
interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be
different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it
should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should
be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the
direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of
inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes,
it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..."

(Alexander Hellemans, "A Force to Reckon With: What applied the brakes
on Pioneer 10 and 11? ", Scientific American, 10 October 1995)

Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?


1. Lack of funding.
2. Johnsen-Rahbek effect on the solar panels.


They don't have any. They are RTG powered.

Klazmon.
  #18  
Old June 16th 06, 01:13 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity,sci.astro
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Default Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

Dear Rising-Star8471:

"Rising-Star8471" wrote in message
ps.com...
....
Im still sold on dust. A dust ring around the edge
of the solar system would have been undetectable
by the voyager series.

PLUS it would account for both probes slowing down......


But not with the same rate. *If* the two probes speeds are
different by 10%, and the density of dust is the same along the
two paths, and the dust velocity radially outwards is zero, then
the acceleration due to the impulse difference should be along
the lines of 19%. But it is not.

....
But we can say what its not.......

Its NOT a planet
Its NOT a star
Its NOT a moon
Its not ANY ONE object that can be in solar
orbit (.)
It CANNOT be an object in which the solar
system is bound.


Yes, it could be an orbitting halo of Dark Matter. But that
means that every planet starting with/after Jupiter would be
funkey.

If it is gravity, then the probe should have been
deflected off course, I have not seen any data
indicating this.


An anomalous sunward acceleration (ASA) *is* like gravity, and
the ASA *is* indicated by the data.

Not to mention that any one of the aformentioned
possiblites would have only effected ONE of the
probes (Although I think of the trojen asteriods
trapped by Jupiter and wonder, but then again
these objects are in orbit and not traveling in a
straight line)

What does that leave us that naturally occurs in space?

Dust
Gas
Solar Wind (or similarly classified phenominon)
cosmic rays?


A sunward-facing solar sail (aka. radio dish) with a hot
power-plant behind it providing net-sunward thrust. Present in
all craft. Intensity of the Solar output falls off by 1/r^2
(outward on the sail), and the radioactive source falls off
1/(e^kt) (reduces inward on the sail).

Im going to stick with dust ........


Contraindicated. Even if the dust were slightly outbound, the
differential impulse would be greater (and more would be required
to provide the acceleration detected). And if the dust were
inbound, the acceleration is then wrong and abother cause needs
to be sought.

David A. Smith


  #19  
Old June 16th 06, 01:15 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity,sci.astro
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Default Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

Dear George:

"George" wrote in message
m...

"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" N: dlzc1 D:cox
wrote in message news:64dkg.33850$AB3.658@fed1read02...
Dear ca314159:

"ca314159" wrote in message
...
Joe Jakarta wrote:

...
Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen?

1. Lack of funding.
2. Johnsen-Rahbek effect on the solar panels.


Did these spacecraft (Pioner 10 and 11) even have
solar panels? They were built for "outer system"
work, and solar panels would be useless.


I thought they had radioactive isotope power generators.


They did. But a quick glimpse didn't show anything that said
they didn't also have solar panels. But why they'd have
something onboard that would fail by Jupiter doesn't make sense
to me.

David A. Smith


  #20  
Old June 16th 06, 01:42 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity,sci.astro
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Default Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous

Finder wrote:
Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent!


Yes, indeed.

I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway.


_They_ can measure to much better than that. I don't recall their
resolution, but a search of arXiv.org will surely find it. Remember they
are using the propagation of radio waves to measure it, not a series of
meter sticks laid end-to-end (:-)).


Tom Roberts
 




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