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Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
Joe Jakarta wrote:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...4583414B7F0000 "One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions. The strange behavior sparked several theories, but the lack of data made culling the ideas difficult. Now a proposal to analyze telemetry from the early years could literally point toward the correct explanation. "The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation, perhaps. Over the years, however, researchers increasingly viewed this hypothesis as less likely, and some physicists began to explore possible flaws in Newton's laws and relativity. Others posited that dark matter was the culprit: it might exert a gravitational or drag force. A third theory embraces the idea that a minute acceleration exists in the velocity of light, which might result in the appearance that the probes are slowing down: if light travels faster, telemetry signals arrive faster, and the craft seem to be closer. "Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes, it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..." (Alexander Hellemans, "A Force to Reckon With: What applied the brakes on Pioneer 10 and 11? ", Scientific American, 10 October 1995) Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen? Gentlemen The Primary data set may be viewed at: Study of the Pioneer Anomaly: A Problem Set Slava G. Turyshev, Michael Martin Nieto, and John D. Anderson (Dated: September 6, 2005) http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0502123 Summary Motion data: Pioneer 10 about 28,000 mph 1,250,000 cm/sec (sun reference) Pioneer 11 about 26,000 mph 1,160,000 cm/sec (sun reference) with deceleration for both at (8.74 ± 1.33) x 10^(-8) cm/sec2 (5.99 ± 0.01) x 10^(-9) Hz/s and the pioneer spacecraft rotational spin rates Pioneer 10 about 4 rpm (2,581 cm/sec tip speed) Pioneer 11 about 7 rpm (4,517 cm/sec tip speed) with deceleration for both at .0067 rpm/year Moment of inertia = 5.88E9 g cm^2 Mass = 241,000 gram Area = 58,965 cm2 Logically It can be concluded that deceleration is independent of observation coordinate or other words force points toward the sun and also force points toward Earth and also force points in the direction of motion and also force points along the spin axis of the probes and also (an important point not noted by Anderson et al) force points along the rotation tip angular direction of the probes Perhaps analysis of archival data will show this more clearly. Richard |
#12
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Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
Rising-Star8471 asked: Given the numbers from the previous posts, does anyone have any idea what the mass of an unseen object would have to be to cause the speed discrepincy? The mass depends on its distance from Pioneer. A larger mass would be farther away; a smaller one would be closer. But the mass would have to be fairly small or it would affect other bodies in the Solar System. It doesn't. Also, since the effect on the spacecraft was constant for more than a decade, the masses would have to be following the spacecraft at a constant distance behind them. The masses would have to be approximately in line between the Earth and the spacecraft, a short distance behind them. And since the Pioneers were slowing down, in order to maintain a constant distance, the masses would have to be slowing down, too. -- Jeff, in Minneapolis |
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Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
Jeff Root wrote: Rising-Star8471 asked: Given the numbers from the previous posts, does anyone have any idea what the mass of an unseen object would have to be to cause the speed discrepincy? The mass depends on its distance from Pioneer. A larger mass would be farther away; a smaller one would be closer. But the mass would have to be fairly small or it would affect other bodies in the Solar System. It doesn't. Also, since the effect on the spacecraft was constant for more than a decade, the masses would have to be following the spacecraft at a constant distance behind them. The masses would have to be approximately in line between the Earth and the spacecraft, a short distance behind them. And since the Pioneers were slowing down, in order to maintain a constant distance, the masses would have to be slowing down, too. -- Jeff, in Minneapolis Then I would have to go with dust. It appears that they are both traveling the plane of the eclipic, where as the voyagers are both far above and far below the ecliptic. Its possible that the solar system still has dust rings beyond the orbit of Neptune that are leftovers from planetry development. We woulnt neccisarly notice from here because this dust would have always there to us, We dont have a "dust free: enviroment to compare the observations to. This would also explain why it happened to both probes, and the following body of mass theroy. The probe is still plowing through the dust. When its speed stablizes, it will have gone through the other side. Star |
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Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
"Finder" wrote in message reenews.net... Their model is very slightly off, and needs no adjusting. Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent! I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway. It's 8,000 miles per year. Add it up since the early 1980's and you have a big problem with gravitational theory. Greysky |
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Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
greysky wrote: "Finder" wrote in message reenews.net... Their model is very slightly off, and needs no adjusting. Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent! I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway. It's 8,000 miles per year. Add it up since the early 1980's and you have a big problem with gravitational theory. Greysky OK OK jeeeeezzzze Ill turn the tractor beam off already.......all ya had to do was ask 208000 miles total, is it still slowing down or has the speed stablized, if it stablized, then when. Im still sold on dust. A dust ring around the edge of the solar system would have been undetectable by the voyager series. PLUS it would account for both probes slowing down...... I dont think its bad math on NASAs part simply because once upon a time it was moving at a certain rate with nonthing detectable that would slow it down. That factor has changed. Something HAS interacted with it to slow it down, we just dont know what. But we can say what its not....... Its NOT a planet Its NOT a star Its NOT a moon Its not ANY ONE object that can be in solar orbit (.) It CANNOT be an object in which the solar system is bound. If it is gravity, then the probe should have been deflected off course, I have not seen any data indicating this. Not to mention that any one of the aformentioned possiblites would have only effected ONE of the probes (Although I think of the trojen asteriods trapped by Jupiter and wonder, but then again these objects are in orbit and not traveling in a straight line) What does that leave us that naturally occurs in space? Dust Gas Solar Wind (or similarly classified phenominon) cosmic rays? Im going to stick with dust ........ We have observed dust "rings" (not to be confused with spherical clouds of debri) around other stars in nature, why not our own? Perhaps its this very dust that obscures our view of the center of the galaxy, and not dust from the spiral arm as some beilive?. Of course, the probe could have been reprogrammed in transit by another life form to "seek out its creator" and now its slowing down to turn around and come home Star |
#16
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Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
"greysky" wrote in message .net... "Finder" wrote in message reenews.net... Their model is very slightly off, and needs no adjusting. Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent! I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway. It's 8,000 miles per year. Add it up since the early 1980's and you have a big problem with gravitational theory. Bullpuppy. It travels 236,520,000 in one year, and it is within 0.000338% of expected. The mass of the sun is not known to that precision, nor the mass of the spacecraft. |
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Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
ca314159 wrote in
: Joe Jakarta wrote: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...330-A54583414B 7F0000 "One of the most intriguing mysteries in physics is the "Pioneer anomaly," the slowing down of two spacecraft by an unknown force. NASA launched Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1972 and 1973, respectively, and the craft returned stunning images of Jupiter and Saturn. But as both spacecraft continued their voyages at speeds of roughly 27,000 miles per hour, astronomer John Anderson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., noticed anomalies in telemetry data dating from as far back as 1980. With continued analysis, researchers determined that the spacecraft had been slowing down at a constant rate: each year they fell 8,000 miles short of their calculated positions. The strange behavior sparked several theories, but the lack of data made culling the ideas difficult. Now a proposal to analyze telemetry from the early years could literally point toward the correct explanation. "The most obvious theory was that something on the spacecraft themselves created a braking force--leaking gas or heat radiation, perhaps. Over the years, however, researchers increasingly viewed this hypothesis as less likely, and some physicists began to explore possible flaws in Newton's laws and relativity. Others posited that dark matter was the culprit: it might exert a gravitational or drag force. A third theory embraces the idea that a minute acceleration exists in the velocity of light, which might result in the appearance that the probes are slowing down: if light travels faster, telemetry signals arrive faster, and the craft seem to be closer. "Anderson and theorist Michael M. Nieto of Los Alamos National Laboratory have proposed a way to filter the ideas, noting the interesting fact that the direction of the anomalous force would be different for each theory. If the force points toward the sun, then it should be a gravitational effect. If it points toward Earth, it should be an anomaly relating to the velocity of light. If it points in the direction of motion, it should be a drag force or a modification of inertia. And finally, if it points along the spin axis of the probes, it should indicate a force generated by the craft. ..." (Alexander Hellemans, "A Force to Reckon With: What applied the brakes on Pioneer 10 and 11? ", Scientific American, 10 October 1995) Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen? 1. Lack of funding. 2. Johnsen-Rahbek effect on the solar panels. They don't have any. They are RTG powered. Klazmon. |
#18
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Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
Dear Rising-Star8471:
"Rising-Star8471" wrote in message ps.com... .... Im still sold on dust. A dust ring around the edge of the solar system would have been undetectable by the voyager series. PLUS it would account for both probes slowing down...... But not with the same rate. *If* the two probes speeds are different by 10%, and the density of dust is the same along the two paths, and the dust velocity radially outwards is zero, then the acceleration due to the impulse difference should be along the lines of 19%. But it is not. .... But we can say what its not....... Its NOT a planet Its NOT a star Its NOT a moon Its not ANY ONE object that can be in solar orbit (.) It CANNOT be an object in which the solar system is bound. Yes, it could be an orbitting halo of Dark Matter. But that means that every planet starting with/after Jupiter would be funkey. If it is gravity, then the probe should have been deflected off course, I have not seen any data indicating this. An anomalous sunward acceleration (ASA) *is* like gravity, and the ASA *is* indicated by the data. Not to mention that any one of the aformentioned possiblites would have only effected ONE of the probes (Although I think of the trojen asteriods trapped by Jupiter and wonder, but then again these objects are in orbit and not traveling in a straight line) What does that leave us that naturally occurs in space? Dust Gas Solar Wind (or similarly classified phenominon) cosmic rays? A sunward-facing solar sail (aka. radio dish) with a hot power-plant behind it providing net-sunward thrust. Present in all craft. Intensity of the Solar output falls off by 1/r^2 (outward on the sail), and the radioactive source falls off 1/(e^kt) (reduces inward on the sail). Im going to stick with dust ........ Contraindicated. Even if the dust were slightly outbound, the differential impulse would be greater (and more would be required to provide the acceleration detected). And if the dust were inbound, the acceleration is then wrong and abother cause needs to be sought. David A. Smith |
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Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
Dear George:
"George" wrote in message m... "N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" N: dlzc1 D:cox wrote in message news:64dkg.33850$AB3.658@fed1read02... Dear ca314159: "ca314159" wrote in message ... Joe Jakarta wrote: ... Where's *your* money, ladies and gentlemen? 1. Lack of funding. 2. Johnsen-Rahbek effect on the solar panels. Did these spacecraft (Pioner 10 and 11) even have solar panels? They were built for "outer system" work, and solar panels would be useless. I thought they had radioactive isotope power generators. They did. But a quick glimpse didn't show anything that said they didn't also have solar panels. But why they'd have something onboard that would fail by Jupiter doesn't make sense to me. David A. Smith |
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Pioneer : Anomaly Still Anonymous
Finder wrote:
Only 8,000 miles off after 34 years at flying 27,000 mph is Excellent! Yes, indeed. I doubt that we can even measure 8,000 mi at that distance anyway. _They_ can measure to much better than that. I don't recall their resolution, but a search of arXiv.org will surely find it. Remember they are using the propagation of radio waves to measure it, not a series of meter sticks laid end-to-end (:-)). Tom Roberts |
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