tricky question,re Columbia astronauts.

Apologies if this sounds a bit morbid, but I was wondering if any
information was released regarding the bodies of the Columbia 7.

How were they indentified ? I know flight patches were found, did the
LES partially survive ? I saw a pic of a helmet on the ground during the
recovery efforts.

Thanks to any answers to some awkward questions

Adam



--
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John Young, while in the confined space of the lunar module with Charlie
Duke on the moon:

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From Adam Bootle:
Apologies if this sounds a bit morbid, but I was wondering if any
information was released regarding the bodies of the Columbia 7.

How were they indentified ? I know flight patches were found, did the
LES partially survive ? I saw a pic of a helmet on the ground during the
recovery efforts.

Thanks to any answers to some awkward questions

I see these as important questions. I haven't heard about any LES's
that were on board. Pumpkinwise, I expect that they were all wearing
ACES. I would like to know if any parachutes had auto-deployed. This
would give an indication as to how close they came to possibly
surviving the cabin breakup. Important info for future design.

How were they identified? DNA is the obvious guess. The military
DNAs every member. I'm sure that NASA does the same with their
astronauts.

There were many people involved in combing the land. Maybe someone
who was there would like to pipe in with more information.


~ CT

In article ,
says...
Apologies if this sounds a bit morbid, but I was wondering if any
information was released regarding the bodies of the Columbia 7.

How were they indentified ? I know flight patches were found, did the
LES partially survive ? I saw a pic of a helmet on the ground during the
recovery efforts.

Thanks to any answers to some awkward questions

The mostly unconfirmed reports I've read say that a couple of the bodies
(including Ilan Ramon's) were recovered essentially intact, in that all
the limbs were attached and the suits were relatively intact. Other
bodies came apart during the breakup/descent, with one report of a torso
unconnected with any of its limbs, charred limbs discovered with tatters
of suit material on them, that kind of thing.

It would seem that the people on the flight deck suffered more serious
results, such as dismemberment, than those on the middeck. Probably
because the middeck structure protected the bodies of the three people
located there a little longer than the flight deck structure, which has
windows and such that can blow out and compromise it.

As for identification, I assume that there was plenty of flesh left on
the body parts for DNA identification, and that partially dismembered
body parts which included a head could be identified by dental records.

I know it's gruesome, but this is how body parts are identified in the
aftermath of most catastrophic accidents.

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

In message , Doug...
writes
In article ,
says...
Apologies if this sounds a bit morbid, but I was wondering if any
information was released regarding the bodies of the Columbia 7.

How were they indentified ? I know flight patches were found, did the
LES partially survive ? I saw a pic of a helmet on the ground during the
recovery efforts.

Thanks to any answers to some awkward questions

The mostly unconfirmed reports I've read say that a couple of the bodies
(including Ilan Ramon's) were recovered essentially intact, in that all
the limbs were attached and the suits were relatively intact. Other
bodies came apart during the breakup/descent, with one report of a torso
unconnected with any of its limbs, charred limbs discovered with tatters
of suit material on them, that kind of thing.

It would seem that the people on the flight deck suffered more serious
results, such as dismemberment, than those on the middeck. Probably
because the middeck structure protected the bodies of the three people
located there a little longer than the flight deck structure, which has
windows and such that can blow out and compromise it.

I have the horrid feeling we are coming back to the idea that they just
fell from a great height, after the crew compartment came apart under
fairly mild conditions rather than being smashed by break-up at
hypersonic speed. The sort of thing James Oberg described in that TV
documentary soon after the accident.
It didn't sound good then, either.
--
"Forty millions of miles it was from us, more than forty millions of miles of
void"

"Jonathan Silverlight" wrote in
I have the horrid feeling we are coming back to the idea that they just
fell from a great height, after the crew compartment came apart under
fairly mild conditions rather than being smashed by break-up at
hypersonic speed. The sort of thing James Oberg described in that TV
documentary soon after the accident.

I no longer entertain the notion they 'almost' made it -- although on that
Bad Day the assumption HAD to be that they could have, and needed rescue,
not recovery.

At those speeds and altitudes, the decel forces would have crumpled the
cabin structure around them -- it was WAY above design spec. Even in the
crew cabin structure, I hear, most aluminum parts are missing, testifying to
the high temperatures in the plasma flow.

If the vehicle had held together another two minutes, I figure, and THEN
broke up, the free-falling cabin would have had a much better chance of
protecting the contents down to 40,000 feet when as many who could would
struggle to the hatches (middeck main hatch, and flight deck overhead
window -- or just a hole in the wall) and get out, if they weren't injured
or pinned in their heavy suits against the seats in a spin.

Significance: any wing breach jury-rigged repair that held together even
marginally -- that gave the wing a hundred goddam seconds of additional
life -- might have made the difference between life and death.

HOWEVER -- I am troubled by the CAIB's final report that cause of death in
some cases was asphyxiation. Blunt trauma I understand and can (shudder!)
visualize, but remaining physically intact long enough to suffocate --
THAT'S a horrid thought.

From James Oberg:

I no longer entertain the notion they 'almost' made it -- although on that
Bad Day the assumption HAD to be that they could have, and needed rescue,
not recovery.

snip

HOWEVER -- I am troubled by the CAIB's final report that cause of death in
some cases was asphyxiation. Blunt trauma I understand and can (shudder!)
visualize, but remaining physically intact long enough to suffocate --
THAT'S a horrid thought.

I'm not sure I follow the reasoning of the first statement. Cause of
death being hypoxia serves as an indicator as to how close they came
to surviving.


~ CT

but remaining physically intact long enough to suffocate --
THAT'S a horrid thought.

How would they have suffocated? Don't shuttle crews wear space suits on the
reentry?

In article ,
says...
but remaining physically intact long enough to suffocate --
THAT'S a horrid thought.

How would they have suffocated? Don't shuttle crews wear space suits on the
reentry?

Yes, they do. Attached to air lines connected to oxygen and nitrogen
tanks within the body of the Shuttle. AFAIK, they have no portable life
support systems, no source of breathing air, attached to the launch and
entry suits themselves.

And after the disintegration of the crew cabin, those few crew members
who remained intact within relatively intact suits had no air supply.
Even if their suits remained intact, the air hoses into the Shuttle's
tanks were most certainly severed.

From what I hear, though (as if anyone would *really* know) --
suffocation is a more benign way to die that being dismembered and/or
charred to death. So the suffocation deaths don't really bother me that
much. Better to die while watching yourself fall through the boundary
between the black sky and the slue sky than to have your last physical
sensations be that of having your limbs pulled from you, I would think...

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

(Stuf4) wrote:
HOWEVER -- I am troubled by the CAIB's final report that cause of death in
some cases was asphyxiation. Blunt trauma I understand and can (shudder!)
visualize, but remaining physically intact long enough to suffocate --
THAT'S a horrid thought.

I'm not sure I follow the reasoning of the first statement. Cause of
death being hypoxia serves as an indicator as to how close they came
to surviving.

ROTFLMAO.

You must work terribly hard to remain so ignorant.

D.
--
The STS-107 Columbia Loss FAQ can be found
at the following URLs:

Text-Only Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq.html

Enhanced HTML Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq_x.html

Corrections, comments, and additions should be
e-mailed to , as well as posted to
sci.space.history and sci.space.shuttle for
discussion.

From Doug...
In article ,
says...
but remaining physically intact long enough to suffocate --
THAT'S a horrid thought.

How would they have suffocated? Don't shuttle crews wear space suits on the
reentry?

Yes, they do. Attached to air lines connected to oxygen and nitrogen
tanks within the body of the Shuttle. AFAIK, they have no portable life
support systems, no source of breathing air, attached to the launch and
entry suits themselves.

ACES *does* provide emergency O2. Even NASA T-38s give pilots an
EmerO2 supply bottle (along with just about every ejection seat).

This is from a site that discusses shuttle suits:

"...suits were used with a specially integrated parachute, emergency
oxygen system and survival kit pack, worn on the back in combination
with the suit."

(http://webs.lanset.com/aeolusaero/Articles/SSuits.htm)

Without getting grotesque (hopefully), part of the nightmare scenario
I was referring to is that crewmembers survived unconscious. Their
parachutes safely land them on the ground and their O2 supply keeping
them alive. But with no one to help them out on the ground, their
visors remain closed and their O2 supply runs out.

(Again, I see little chance of this being what actually happened.
Only offered as a slim possibility.)

And after the disintegration of the crew cabin, those few crew members
who remained intact within relatively intact suits had no air supply.
Even if their suits remained intact, the air hoses into the Shuttle's
tanks were most certainly severed.

Separation from their seats should have been designed with automatic
activation of their self-contained O2 supply within the ACES suits.
But there is lots that can get broken in such a violent disintegration
and here is where I would say the most likely failure occurred.


~ CT