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#52
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Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote: On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 19:12:48 -0700, Fred J. McCall wrote: wrote: On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 11:08:21 -0700, Fred J. McCall wrote: wrote: In sci.physics John Larkin wrote: There is one very successful additive manufacturing process: casting. Because it is fast and cheap. Good, fast, cheap - choose any two. It's obvious where the Chimp lives... Are you saying that castings are not good? I'm saying what I said. I was trying to help you make some sense of your nonsense but I guess there wasn't any to make. I'm sorry you're stupid and have never designed anything in the real world, but I can't fix you. You're a bit of a bellend aren't you. *PLONK* |
#53
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Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
Robert Clark wrote:
An article from 2015: 3-D-printed car could hit streets next year. Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY 4:48 p.m. EST November 12, 2015 http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...swim/75530830/ Several companies have come out with what they call "3D-printed" cars, but none have 3D-printed the most important part, the engine. This would be difficult to do with an internal combustion engine, with its high temperatures, multiple moving parts, and high tolerances. But it shouldn't be too difficult with an electric engine. In fact considering there are now miniature 3D-printers on the market for the home, an amateur could be the first to produce an entire, scale-size, 3D-printed car. And then it could be scaled up to produce a full-size, working, fully 3D-printed automobile. This would revolutionize the industry, obviously. The two most difficult parts would be the engine and the transmission. * Transmission not needed; look at the Tesla. This video shows how you can make your own simple electric motor: How to Make an Electric Motor at Home - YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p2QTE26VOA Looking at the steps in the video, it appears they could all be accomplished by 3D-printing. * GACK! A DC motor with commutator! How gross. The working part of the engine should be exactly like the armature in the Tesla car: design is same as armature in an AC shaded pole fan motor. That design would not be too difficult for a 3Dprinter. --- Do you have any references for how the Tesla car electric motor looks/works? Bob Clark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize 21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital launchers, to 'flying cars'. This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it: Nanotech: from air to space. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- |
#54
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Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
An article from 2015:
3-D-printed car could hit streets next year. Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY 4:48 p.m. EST November 12, 2015 http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...swim/75530830/ Several companies have come out with what they call "3D-printed" cars, but none have 3D-printed the most important part, the engine. This would be difficult to do with an internal combustion engine, with its high temperatures, multiple moving parts, and high tolerances. But it shouldn't be too difficult with an electric engine. In fact considering there are now miniature 3D-printers on the market for the home, an amateur could be the first to produce an entire, scale-size, 3D-printed car. And then it could be scaled up to produce a full-size, working, fully 3D-printed automobile. This would revolutionize the industry, obviously. The two most difficult parts would be the engine and the transmission. This video shows how you can make your own simple electric motor: How to Make an Electric Motor at Home - YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p2QTE26VOA Looking at the steps in the video, it appears they could all be accomplished by 3D-printing. Bob Clark Here's a description of the commercial, metal 3D-printers now in use: Learn how 3d printing metal works – Top 3 ways! 02, 10 , 2016. https://pinshape.com/blog/3d-printing-metal/ The first method described as "metal binder jetting" might be the easiest one for amateurs to adapt to make a home metal 3D-printer. This method is also the fastest as described he Desktop Metal reveals how its 3D printers rapidly churn out metal objects. Posted Apr 25, 2017 by Lora Kolodny (@lorakolodny) https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/25/de...metal-objects/ The metal "binder jetting method" for 3D metal printing is analogous to how amateurs make plastic 3D parts so it should be something amateurs could copy: Desktop Metal Production System. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUOCiRktuCo The only complication is that it is a 3 step process: the part is 3D printed, then put in a solvent bath to dissolve the binder, then finally put in a high temperature oven to sinter the metal together. However, the method itself probably is not patented since another company Metal X is using the same process: Solid Metal 3D Printing Under $100k - Markforged Metal X | CES 2017. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeZkOuQUeaQ Many amateurs working independently could come up with improvements to the process. For instance, is it possible to combine the metal deposition, dissolving the binder, and sintering all into a single step? Bob Clark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize 21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital launchers, to 'flying cars'. This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it: Nanotech: from air to space. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- |
#55
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Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
An article from 2015:
3-D-printed car could hit streets next year. Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY 4:48 p.m. EST November 12, 2015 http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...swim/75530830/ Several companies have come out with what they call "3D-printed" cars, but none have 3D-printed the most important part, the engine. This would be difficult to do with an internal combustion engine, with its high temperatures, multiple moving parts, and high tolerances. But it shouldn't be too difficult with an electric engine. In fact considering there are now miniature 3D-printers on the market for the home, an amateur could be the first to produce an entire, scale-size, 3D-printed car. And then it could be scaled up to produce a full-size, working, fully 3D-printed automobile. This would revolutionize the industry, obviously. The two most difficult parts would be the engine and the transmission. This video shows how you can make your own simple electric motor: How to Make an Electric Motor at Home - YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p2QTE26VOA Looking at the steps in the video, it appears they could all be accomplished by 3D-printing. The Desktop Metal Studio system is not meant for home use. But they do mean for it to be used by engineers in an office setting to do rapid prototyping. Their Desktop Metal Production system due out next year is intended for high volume production. They claim a production rate of 8,200 cm3 per hour, which they say rivals standard manufacturing techniques. As described in their videos, this is for production of multiple copies of a part by a machine with about a cubic foot operating volume: Desktop Metal Production System. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUOCiRktuCo However, it would seem the machine could be adapted to make a single part of this size. That is, instead of making a hundred copies of a part a couple of inches wide by using multiple jets performing identical deposition passes, have these jets be separately, and independently directed to make different portions of one part that is a foot wide. Say, you wanted to make a steel engine within a machine operating volume 3 feet wide on a side. This would require 33 = 27 of the current machines (or a single one scaled up this size.) Say, the engine weighed 270 kilos, that's 270,000 grams. Say the weight is equally distributed among the 27 machines, so 270,000/27 = 10,000 grams for each machine. The density of steel is about 8 gms/cm3. So that's 10,000/8 = 1,250 cm3. This would then take 1,250/8,200 =.15 hours, or 9 minutes to make the complete engine. It's notable in this video the company's chief engineer says their system could be scaled up to make an automobile chassis: VIDEO: How Additive Manufacturing Can Produce Metal Parts en Masse. James Anderton posted on June 06, 2017 | http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...-en-Masse.aspx One imagines also, it could be scaled up to make the complete automobile. Bob Clark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize 21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital launchers, to 'flying cars'. This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it: Nanotech: from air to space. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- |
#56
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Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Wednesday, 5 July 2017 01:04:14 UTC+1, Robert Clark wrote:
The largest of the professional, metal 3D-printers common now can 3D-print parts about a foot across and cost about $250,000. So you can imagine a 3D-printer that can 3D-print parts, say, 10 feet across, would be 10^3 = 1,000 times larger in volume and mass, and perhaps a thousand times more expensive, to $250 million. Goods don't usually go up in price proportionally to volume. And like anything in its infancy 3D printers are coming down in price rapidly. An expensive proposition. But if it can be shown a scale-model car can be fully 3D-printed then it might be worthwhile for a large industrial company to invest in this when it would mean any car of any model could be 3D-printed on demand. Bob Clark Jay Leno already gets 3d printed car parts made for old machines with zero spares availability. Custom cars might become a lot more popular in future, who knows - if so 3d can do that. Whether it will ever compete with stamped metal I've very little idea. We hear emotive arguments but nothing very solid. At best we can say 3d printing is slow, whereas stamping & casting are heavy, wasteful, shape restricted and require way more assembly time. NT --- With those price numbers I was referring to the price of the machine itself. Likely, you could also accomplish the same thing by combining several of the machines to 3D-print objects of a larger size, in which case the price of the machines would be linear. At least one other company is using this technique for doing 3D metal printing: Solid Metal 3D Printing Under $100k - Markforged Metal X | CES 2017. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeZkOuQUeaQ So this "binder jetting" method for metal 3D-printing probably is not patented, though each company may patent their own individual design. With applications of the process increasing, more companies will come into the field, increasing the production of the machines and reducing the price. Also, since this is a process that can be copied by amateurs more creativity will come into the field possibly resulting in further reductions in cost of the machines. Bob Clark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize 21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital launchers, to 'flying cars'. This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it: Nanotech: from air to space. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- |
#57
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Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
In article ,
says... wrote: In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote: wrote: Does anyone care about a shape optimized 4 slice toaster or filing cabinet? Yes. I do. If any significant number of items in your house are fabricated, it makes sense to use as few raw materials as possible, so, for example, it would make sense to honeycomb the inside of a knife handle, since it would still be strong enough, and would allow you to keep a gram or two of material "in the pot" for other projects. Ditto everything you make. Nonsense; the items in one's house are based on price not how elegantly it was produced. It makes no sense to honeycomb the inside of a knife handle as it would add no functionality and just increase the price. What price? It would reduce both the time to fabricate and feedstock used, albeit at the cost of slightly more complex software. They form the only metric which makes sense when talking about fabricating objects. So, by that metric, they're cheaper. Some people do like to buy exotic things. Some people even buy expensive things thinking that if they cost more they *must* be better, right? Hell, I know a few "foodies" who would likely buy "lightweight" silverware just to have as a conversation piece at their next dinner party. My local Kroger carries a few knives with ceramic blades. One could ask why of that as well, but they're there on the shelf. Someone must be buying them since they've been around for several years. Jeff -- All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone. These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends, employer, or any organization that I am a member of. |
#58
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Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
Say, you wanted to make a steel engine within a machine operating volume 3 feet wide on a side. This would require 33 = 27 of the current machines (or a single one scaled up this size.) Say, the engine weighed 270 kilos, that's 270,000 grams. Say the weight is equally distributed among the 27 machines, The second sentence here should say: "This would require 3^3 = 27 of the current machines (or a single one scaled up this size.)" Bob Clark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize 21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital launchers, to 'flying cars'. This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it: Nanotech: from air to space. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- |
#59
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Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote: In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote: wrote: Does anyone care about a shape optimized 4 slice toaster or filing cabinet? Yes. I do. If any significant number of items in your house are fabricated, it makes sense to use as few raw materials as possible, so, for example, it would make sense to honeycomb the inside of a knife handle, since it would still be strong enough, and would allow you to keep a gram or two of material "in the pot" for other projects. Ditto everything you make. Nonsense; the items in one's house are based on price not how elegantly it was produced. It makes no sense to honeycomb the inside of a knife handle as it would add no functionality and just increase the price. What price? The manufacturing cost which increases the retail sales price at the store. It would reduce both the time to fabricate and feedstock used, albeit at the cost of slightly more complex software. Or you could injection mold it, as most knife handles are, for a fraction of the manufacturing cost of the honyecomb nonsense. Or you could stamp the whole thing out of metal for a fraction of the cost of the honyecomb nonsense. They form the only metric which makes sense when talking about fabricating objects. The only metric which makes sense for fabricating objects is the loaded manufacturing cost. So, by that metric, they're cheaper. If an injection molded handle costs a fraction of a cent while the honeycomb handle costs several cents, which is cheaper? -- Jim Pennino |
#60
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Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
David Mitchell wrote:
Fred J. McCall wrote: wrote: On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 19:12:48 -0700, Fred J. McCall wrote: wrote: On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 11:08:21 -0700, Fred J. McCall wrote: wrote: In sci.physics John Larkin wrote: There is one very successful additive manufacturing process: casting. Because it is fast and cheap. Good, fast, cheap - choose any two. It's obvious where the Chimp lives... Are you saying that castings are not good? I'm saying what I said. I was trying to help you make some sense of your nonsense but I guess there wasn't any to make. I'm sorry you're stupid and have never designed anything in the real world, but I can't fix you. You're a bit of a bellend aren't you. You're more than a bit of a foreskin, aren't you? *PLONK* Good idea. It'll save you the frustration of not being able to explain to me what I mean by what I said. -- "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson |
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