Why Armies that Chase the Oil Markets Will End Up in the Lake of Fire

"American" wrote in message
...
On Feb 3, 1:24 pm, "no surrender" wrote:
"American" wrote in message

...
On Feb 2, 8:46 pm, "no surrender" wrote:



"American" wrote in message

...
On Feb 2, 10:23 am, "no surrender" wrote:
: "Joe Blow" wrote in message
:
::
:: Where can I get some of whatever "American" is smoking?
::
:: Joe Blow
:
: ****
: Oh, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want any of that. See what
: it's done to him. A couple of drags, and you wouldn't be able
: to tie your own shoes again...ever.
:
: Dennis
:
Get a grip on yourself, man, and fix your focus on
solutions rather than symptoms, cause last time I
checked, there's over 1.3 billion Chinese that want
your job, and they're increasing by 10
million a year...

Is there no end to the pessimism here? Is there no
offering the least bit of intuitive gut-felt reasonable
doubt of the oil markets being engraved in the stone of
a world class infrastructure that only the transnationalists
their stockholding clonesmen, the rused/stung/snookered
military industrial establishment, and the Lords of Bush ever
get to see getting accomplished? Why does any or all of
these accomplishments have to be so insularized? Isn't
it because of the deal that is dealt to the those who support
any kind of energy infrastructure must also, by default,
lend itself such an encompassing "evil empire" that people
like "Dennis" feel oblidged to succumb to the "powers that
be" only because hard core dark science people like
"Joe Blow" thinks he's got a real headlock on the science
that must "get us there", may I remind you that cracking
towers, feedlines, valves, boiler houses, and storage
tanks have been around for just about as long as the
oil itself, so what's the problem with suggesting that we
trade out gasoline powered automobiles with LOX/kerosene
powered Saturn V's?

Gasoline production in the U.S. amounts to 9,233,000
barrels per day, so if we're talking about replacing
the same VALUE of gasoline in kerosene, then in addition
to the current 54,000 barrels used per day, a total of
9,287,000 barrels of kerosene would be required. Since
we're talking RP-1 kerosene, this amounts to 46 launches
per day, or about 1 per state in the country, at 18,250
launches per year.

The amount of mass delivered into space at the rate of
5339 tons per day, or 1,948,839 tons per year into LEO.
This is approximately the equivalent to 19 Nimitz aircraft
carriers, or an entire Navy.

Of course, it doesn't have to happen all at once. A gradual
weening in to the financial markets would be a boon to
most or all U.S. manufacturers. In five years, about
570,000 people could be working in LEO - that's about 0.2
percent of the entire population of the U.S. - simply by
phasing out gasoline and replacing it with kerosene.

Roadway congestion across America would also show a
decline by 0.2 percent, and that is only talking about replacing
570,000 people that drive to work every day in metropolitan
areas. If other working people had the desire to become
employed in LEO, then they could either replace those who
return to earth via passenger capsules, or displace some
who decide to join a mining crew for further opportunities.

The possibilities are endless.

The right reasons are there to accomplish a project of
this magnitude.

Let's face the facts - most or all Americans are tired of
forming dependencies with foreign countries that do
nothing but jack the prices of oil around every time
either some terrorist group threatens the security/
trade route of an energy dealer, or an environmentalist
passes new legislation blocking the drilling for oil
somewhere. There has got to be a group of people who
are willing to work in space and take full advantage of
this opportunity, before the system that is supposed to
be serving our needs becomes too "predatory priced".
*****
I would love to see your imitation of Dennis Hopper's character in
Apocalypse Now...like, ya know what I mean, man!!! Huh, man, huh, ya
know
what I mean, man!!!

Dennis

American

"There is no security in this life. There is
only opportunity."
- Douglas MacArthur

As George Eliot writes about the Silas Mariner, the
weaver, his does so with such inscrutable intensity,
that one is quite tempted to create for themselves
an environment that wakes up the folk hero in all
of us:

"A shadowy conception of power that by much persuasion
can be induced to refrain from inflicting harm, is the
shape most easily taken by the sense of the invisible
in the minds of men who have always been pressed
close by primitive wants, and to whom a life of hard
toil has ever been illuminated by any enthusiastic
religious faith. To them pain and mishap present a
far wider range of possibilities than gladness and
enjoyment: their imagination is almost barren of the
images that feed desire and hope, but is all overgrown
by recollections that are a perpetual pasture to fear."

- Silas Mariner: The Weaver of Raveloe, George Eliot

All of humanity has weaved their tales of life as if
they were somehow subjects to either, and/or the designer
of grindstones (teachers), pottery wheels (ambivalence),
sewing machines (social), or winnowers (religious).

IMO, true angst is how you can balance all of these, with
the least ambivalence in your favor.
****
Whew, you are abstruse.Tell ya what, get a copy of Strunk and Whites
Elements of Style, learn its lessons, then get back to us.

Dennis

American

"Fear is the passion of slaves."
- Patrick Henry

Yeah, tell that to cusses like McCain. Ha!
He could use a good dose of Strunk and White's from
what I've been told..
*****
It's obvious you do not know the word abstruse, nor the topics in Elements
of Style. Whew.

Dennis
-

"no surrender" wrote in message
...

Yeah, tell that to cusses like McCain. Ha!
He could use a good dose of Strunk and White's from
what I've been told..
*****
It's obvious you do not know the word abstruse, nor the topics in Elements
of Style. Whew.

Dennis
***
Bet you didn't know they bottled it. It's a lot like Milgillicudy's, ....
only mintier.

JB

"American" wrote in message
...
On Feb 3, 4:21 pm, "no surrender" wrote:
"American" wrote in message

...
On Feb 3, 1:24 pm, "no surrender" wrote:



"American" wrote in message

...
On Feb 2, 8:46 pm, "no surrender" wrote:

"American" wrote in message


...
On Feb 2, 10:23 am, "no surrender" wrote:
: "Joe Blow" wrote in message
:
::
:: Where can I get some of whatever "American" is smoking?
::
:: Joe Blow
:
: ****
: Oh, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want any of that. See what
: it's done to him. A couple of drags, and you wouldn't be able
: to tie your own shoes again...ever.
:
: Dennis
:
Get a grip on yourself, man, and fix your focus on
solutions rather than symptoms, cause last time I
checked, there's over 1.3 billion Chinese that want
your job, and they're increasing by 10
million a year...

Is there no end to the pessimism here? Is there no
offering the least bit of intuitive gut-felt reasonable
doubt of the oil markets being engraved in the stone of
a world class infrastructure that only the transnationalists
their stockholding clonesmen, the rused/stung/snookered
military industrial establishment, and the Lords of Bush ever
get to see getting accomplished? Why does any or all of
these accomplishments have to be so insularized? Isn't
it because of the deal that is dealt to the those who support
any kind of energy infrastructure must also, by default,
lend itself such an encompassing "evil empire" that people
like "Dennis" feel oblidged to succumb to the "powers that
be" only because hard core dark science people like
"Joe Blow" thinks he's got a real headlock on the science
that must "get us there", may I remind you that cracking
towers, feedlines, valves, boiler houses, and storage
tanks have been around for just about as long as the
oil itself, so what's the problem with suggesting that we
trade out gasoline powered automobiles with LOX/kerosene
powered Saturn V's?

Gasoline production in the U.S. amounts to 9,233,000
barrels per day, so if we're talking about replacing
the same VALUE of gasoline in kerosene, then in addition
to the current 54,000 barrels used per day, a total of
9,287,000 barrels of kerosene would be required. Since
we're talking RP-1 kerosene, this amounts to 46 launches
per day, or about 1 per state in the country, at 18,250
launches per year.

The amount of mass delivered into space at the rate of
5339 tons per day, or 1,948,839 tons per year into LEO.
This is approximately the equivalent to 19 Nimitz aircraft
carriers, or an entire Navy.

Of course, it doesn't have to happen all at once. A gradual
weening in to the financial markets would be a boon to
most or all U.S. manufacturers. In five years, about
570,000 people could be working in LEO - that's about 0.2
percent of the entire population of the U.S. - simply by
phasing out gasoline and replacing it with kerosene.

Roadway congestion across America would also show a
decline by 0.2 percent, and that is only talking about replacing
570,000 people that drive to work every day in metropolitan
areas. If other working people had the desire to become
employed in LEO, then they could either replace those who
return to earth via passenger capsules, or displace some
who decide to join a mining crew for further opportunities.

The possibilities are endless.

The right reasons are there to accomplish a project of
this magnitude.

Let's face the facts - most or all Americans are tired of
forming dependencies with foreign countries that do
nothing but jack the prices of oil around every time
either some terrorist group threatens the security/
trade route of an energy dealer, or an environmentalist
passes new legislation blocking the drilling for oil
somewhere. There has got to be a group of people who
are willing to work in space and take full advantage of
this opportunity, before the system that is supposed to
be serving our needs becomes too "predatory priced".
*****
I would love to see your imitation of Dennis Hopper's character in
Apocalypse Now...like, ya know what I mean, man!!! Huh, man, huh, ya
know
what I mean, man!!!

Dennis

American

"There is no security in this life. There is
only opportunity."
- Douglas MacArthur

As George Eliot writes about the Silas Mariner, the
weaver, his does so with such inscrutable intensity,
that one is quite tempted to create for themselves
an environment that wakes up the folk hero in all
of us:

"A shadowy conception of power that by much persuasion
can be induced to refrain from inflicting harm, is the
shape most easily taken by the sense of the invisible
in the minds of men who have always been pressed
close by primitive wants, and to whom a life of hard
toil has ever been illuminated by any enthusiastic
religious faith. To them pain and mishap present a
far wider range of possibilities than gladness and
enjoyment: their imagination is almost barren of the
images that feed desire and hope, but is all overgrown
by recollections that are a perpetual pasture to fear."

- Silas Mariner: The Weaver of Raveloe, George Eliot

All of humanity has weaved their tales of life as if
they were somehow subjects to either, and/or the designer
of grindstones (teachers), pottery wheels (ambivalence),
sewing machines (social), or winnowers (religious).

IMO, true angst is how you can balance all of these, with
the least ambivalence in your favor.
****
Whew, you are abstruse.Tell ya what, get a copy of Strunk and Whites
Elements of Style, learn its lessons, then get back to us.

Dennis

American

"Fear is the passion of slaves."
- Patrick Henry

Yeah, tell that to cusses like McCain. Ha!
He could use a good dose of Strunk and White's from
what I've been told..
*****
It's obvious you do not know the word abstruse, nor the topics in Elements
of Style. Whew.

Dennis
-

Funny version:

Y'oughta not do that, mister, I wuz just gettin' started here!

Uh, let's see now, the word "abstruse", does that mean
an angle over 90 degrees?

or

Standard version:

Yes, I do believe that we would be much better off if
I used the proper version of communication, according to
Strunk and White, esp. in the "Elements of Style" as you
have suggested.

However, you "threw me" when one of your first comments
was about the impersonation of "like, ya know what I
mean, man!!!"

Is this what you prefer as a common usage over the
internet for groupspeak such as this?

I have trouble following your train of syntax.

What's up with that?

American
******
Whew, finally got you to write some simple declarative sentences. Now that
you have demonstrated that skill, please explain to us (using S.D.S.) your
embrace of kerosene as a cure-all, and your distaste for gasoline. And, it's
Silas Marner...not Silas Mariner. A small thing, but it's those small things
that so often trip up the pretentious, don't they!

Dennis

"Eric Chomko" wrote in message
...
On Feb 2, 8:42 pm, "no surrender" wrote:
"Eric Chomko" wrote in message

...
On Jan 31, 4:57 pm, "no surrender" wrote:





"Eric Chomko" wrote in message

...
On Jan 31, 11:31 am, "no surrender" wrote:
"American" wrote in message


...

Do we really need another oil-chasing president?
*****
]Have you given any thought as to just how inter-twined your life is
with
oil? Without it, you're up that creek the prophets speak of.

More the reason to get away from it now.
*****
It would be amusing to watch you try getting away from it in your daily
life.

So you think the unibomber was funny? Sure he was a radical but
getting away from "it" as you put was excatly what he was doing.

Now for more sane people, they can ride a bike, own a hybrid car,
carpool, etc. Also, use wind and solar power rather than natural gas
and oil.

I find it interesting how smug you are about being a slave to Big Oil.
Perhaps you make a living from the industry?
******
No, young fool, I do not make my living from oil. I do, however, benefit
from it, as do you.

There are better ways to get energy you old fart...


Let's see how you benefit from oil; we'll limit this educational lecture
to
one item: your computer.

My computer is made from silicon, plastic and metal. So with plastics
you have a point.

-electricity comes into your home to operate it, plus provide the heat,
AC,
humidity control, power for entertainment devices, etc. to make your life
safe and more comfortable.

Energy as in power to my home can come im many ways. Hyrdo-electric
power being better than fossil fule burning.

-all the employees of the power company use electricity for the same
purposes.

Why not solar or wind power along with hydro-electric? Why burn fossil
fuel and add to the existing greenhouse effect?

-the computer, keyboard, speakers, printer, and monitor made from plastic,
derived from oil.

There are better ways of making plastic such as the use of organic
matter such as corn.

-the wiring insulation in the computer made from plastic.
-the power cord and plug coated in plastic.
-the desk upon which it sits likely topped with a plastic laminate.
-all the employees of the computer production company use electricity for
the same purposes.
-every piece of paper you run through your printer was made with the help
of
oil.
-the ink in your printer was made with the help of oil.
-the CD's you use to rip songs are made from plastic, plus their packaging
and the storage rack for them.
-the earplugs you wear for your iPod or the MP3 files on your hard drive
made from plastics and with thehelp of oil.
-all the employees of all the companies that make, deliver, sell and
repair
all these items use oil.
-the ISP you use uses oil, as do their employees and suppliers.
-the NG administrators also use oil the same way.
-every website you visit uses oil the same way.

Now, where are you going to make a stand, and say no more oil for those
products, those services, those employees?

What percentage of a barrel of oil is used for plastic vs. gas and
other forms of non-renewable energy that also causes pollution?


Also, remember, the Unabomber (not unibomber, as you wrote it) lived in a
one room shack, was insane, and killed folks. That's the future you hope
for?

No. I just want to get rid of oil as fast as possible due to it
pollutant properties, other cleaner forms of energy to replace it,
etc.
*****
Well, which source do you prefer that will give you the same level of
energy?

Dennis

"Eric Chomko" wrote in message
...
On Feb 4, 1:15 pm, "no surrender" wrote:
"Eric Chomko" wrote in message

...
On Feb 2, 8:42 pm, "no surrender" wrote:





"Eric Chomko" wrote in message

...
On Jan 31, 4:57 pm, "no surrender" wrote:

"Eric Chomko" wrote in message


...
On Jan 31, 11:31 am, "no surrender" wrote:
"American" wrote in message


...

Do we really need another oil-chasing president?
*****
]Have you given any thought as to just how inter-twined your life is
with
oil? Without it, you're up that creek the prophets speak of.

More the reason to get away from it now.
*****
It would be amusing to watch you try getting away from it in your
daily
life.

So you think the unibomber was funny? Sure he was a radical but
getting away from "it" as you put was excatly what he was doing.

Now for more sane people, they can ride a bike, own a hybrid car,
carpool, etc. Also, use wind and solar power rather than natural gas
and oil.

I find it interesting how smug you are about being a slave to Big Oil.
Perhaps you make a living from the industry?
******
No, young fool, I do not make my living from oil. I do, however, benefit
from it, as do you.

There are better ways to get energy you old fart...





Let's see how you benefit from oil; we'll limit this educational lecture
to
one item: your computer.

My computer is made from silicon, plastic and metal. So with plastics
you have a point.



-electricity comes into your home to operate it, plus provide the heat,
AC,
humidity control, power for entertainment devices, etc. to make your
life
safe and more comfortable.

Energy as in power to my home can come im many ways. Hyrdo-electric
power being better than fossil fule burning.

-all the employees of the power company use electricity for the same
purposes.

Why not solar or wind power along with hydro-electric? Why burn fossil
fuel and add to the existing greenhouse effect?

-the computer, keyboard, speakers, printer, and monitor made from
plastic,
derived from oil.

There are better ways of making plastic such as the use of organic
matter such as corn.







-the wiring insulation in the computer made from plastic.
-the power cord and plug coated in plastic.
-the desk upon which it sits likely topped with a plastic laminate.
-all the employees of the computer production company use electricity
for
the same purposes.
-every piece of paper you run through your printer was made with the
help
of
oil.
-the ink in your printer was made with the help of oil.
-the CD's you use to rip songs are made from plastic, plus their
packaging
and the storage rack for them.
-the earplugs you wear for your iPod or the MP3 files on your hard drive
made from plastics and with thehelp of oil.
-all the employees of all the companies that make, deliver, sell and
repair
all these items use oil.
-the ISP you use uses oil, as do their employees and suppliers.
-the NG administrators also use oil the same way.
-every website you visit uses oil the same way.

Now, where are you going to make a stand, and say no more oil for those
products, those services, those employees?

What percentage of a barrel of oil is used for plastic vs. gas and
other forms of non-renewable energy that also causes pollution?



Also, remember, the Unabomber (not unibomber, as you wrote it) lived in
a
one room shack, was insane, and killed folks. That's the future you hope
for?

No. I just want to get rid of oil as fast as possible due to it
pollutant properties, other cleaner forms of energy to replace it,
etc.
*****
Well, which source do you prefer that will give you the same level of
energy?


A better question is what form of energy gives you less pollution. Or
do you actually like pollution?
*****
Now you're dodging the question. Ran you right out of ideas, eh! Thought so.

Dennis

"no surrender" wrote:
:
:"Eric Chomko" wrote in message
...
:
: No, young fool, I do not make my living from oil. I do, however, benefit
: from it, as do you.
:
:
:There are better ways to get energy you old fart...
:

Oh, really? Name three...

:
:
: Let's see how you benefit from oil; we'll limit this educational lecture to
: one item: your computer.
:
:
:My computer is made from silicon, plastic and metal. So with plastics
:you have a point.
:

Plus all the energy to manufacture the bits, move it around to get it
to you, etc.

:
:
: -electricity comes into your home to operate it, plus provide the heat, AC,
: humidity control, power for entertainment devices, etc. to make your life
: safe and more comfortable.
:
:
:Energy as in power to my home can come im many ways. Hyrdo-electric
ower being better than fossil fule burning.
:

And there isn't any more of that to be had. So all we have to do is
cut electricity use to 10% of current.

:
:
: -all the employees of the power company use electricity for the same
: purposes.
:
:
:Why not solar or wind power along with hydro-electric? Why burn fossil
:fuel and add to the existing greenhouse effect?
:

Because we can't generate 90% of our electrical needs with solar and
wind.

:
:
: -the computer, keyboard, speakers, printer, and monitor made from plastic,
: derived from oil.
:
:
:There are better ways of making plastic such as the use of organic
:matter such as corn.
:

Sorry, but that's just nuts.

:
:
: Now, where are you going to make a stand, and say no more oil for those
: products, those services, those employees?
:
:
:What percentage of a barrel of oil is used for plastic vs. gas and
ther forms of non-renewable energy that also causes pollution?
:

What are you going to replace gasoline with and where is the energy to
product THAT going to come from?

:
:
: Also, remember, the Unabomber (not unibomber, as you wrote it) lived in a
: one room shack, was insane, and killed folks. That's the future you hope
: for?
:
:No. I just want to get rid of oil as fast as possible due to it
ollutant properties, other cleaner forms of energy to replace it,
:etc.
:*****
:Well, which source do you prefer that will give you the same level of
:energy?
:

Given the non-standard quoting style used in the article I'm
responding to, Lord knows who said what.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

In article ,
"no surrender" wrote:

My computer is made from silicon, plastic and metal. So with plastics
you have a point.

Top Officer Calls US Forces "Stressed"
By Anne Flaherty
The Associated Press

Wednesday 06 February 2008

Washington - The military's top uniformed officer says U.S. forces
are "significantly stressed" by fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan while
simultaneously trying to stem the tide of violent extremism elsewhere.

"The pace of ongoing operations has prevented our forces from fully
training for the full spectrum of operations and impacts our ability to
be ready to counter future threats," Adm. Michael Mullen, chairman of
the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in testimony prepared for delivery
Wednesday.

Mullen's stern warnings are likely to become welcome political
fodder for anti-war Democrats, who want legislation requiring that
troops spend more time at home between combat tours. Last year's efforts
to pass such a bill failed after intense lobbying by Defense Secretary
Robert Gates, who says it would do more harm than good and tie the hands
of military commanders.

Mullen and Gates were to testify Wednesday in separate hearings of
the House and Senate Armed Services committees. Copies of their prepared
remarks were obtained in advance by The Associated Press.

In their testimony, Gates and Mullen ask Congress to support a
$588.3 billion request for defense spending in the 2009 budget year,
which begins Oct. 1.

Of that amount, $70 billion would go toward war spending,
representing only a fraction of what the wars likely will cost. Defense
officials say the money is expected to last until early 2009, when the
next president takes over.

for the rest of the story; visit;

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/printer_020608N.shtml

--
when you believe the only tool you have is a hammer.
problems tend to look like nails.

Fred J. McCall used a stick in the sand to
babble
:Why not solar or wind power along with hydro-electric? Why burn fossil
:fuel and add to the existing greenhouse effect?
:

Because we can't generate 90% of our electrical needs with solar and
wind.

We don't need to. We have nuclear, coal and a plethora of other
sources. Yet that line of reasoning fails to address the number one
way of dealing with our energy needs. Learning to use less.

Swill

Fred J. McCall used a stick in the sand to
babble
:There are better ways of making plastic such as the use of organic
:matter such as corn.
:

Sorry, but that's just nuts.

No, it's not. Cellulose is useful in materials applications. Coal
can also be used to develop replacements for petroleum based chemicals
and materials.

Swill

Fred J. McCall used a stick in the sand to
babble
:What percentage of a barrel of oil is used for plastic vs. gas and
ther forms of non-renewable energy that also causes pollution?
:

What are you going to replace gasoline with and where is the energy to
product THAT going to come from?

How about foot power? How about we start evolving our living and
working patterns to ones requiring less energy? When I was a kid,
there were sidewalks most places and always a store within easy
walking distance.

We've paid a price for economies of scale.

Swill