ever since 1842, the Doppler shift was assumed to exist forlightwaves and never experimentally verified Chapt 8 #138; ATOM TOTALITY

A reader has asked me to not go over 200 posts in a thread as that it
is too difficult to retrieve the thread.
So I will oblige.

Also I had some typo errors of my previous post.

--- repeating my post of last night to David and with a few typo
errors such as the ommission of the word
Doppler in some places ---
Jun 5, 3:56*am

- Hide quoted text -

David Bernier wrote:


Imagine the police radar is at rest and emits sine waves with
crests one meter apart (a signal at about 300 Mega-Hertz).


Suppose a mirror is moving away at 10% of the speed of light from
the radar, in a radial (in-line with the signal) direction.


When a crest advances 1 meter, the mirror recedes by 0.1 meter.
The question is then what is the crest-to-crest separation
after reflection off the mirror?


This might involve special relativity, I'm not completely sure.
But think about planets orbiting about far away stars. It's often
said that as the earth-planet radial velocity varies as
the planet moves in its orbit, periodic variations in
spectral lines (wavelengths or frequencies) are measured,
interpreted as Doppler effects. *Don't you think
this is well established?


David Bernier

All physical systems involve SR, since SR is nothing more than saying
that
the Maxwell Equations are invariant as per whether a magnet is moving
or a
wire loop is moving while the other is stationary.


Let me answer you by asking you some questions. Doppler Effect
discovered in
1842; Michelson Morley Experiment 1887; Special Relativity of
Lorentz-
Poincare
1900; Hubble Law of redshift of galaxies 1929.


Questions, David:
(1) Would there be any reason for any scientist to question whether
lightwaves
obeyed a Doppler shift? The actual history shows that noone bothered
to
question whether lightwaves must or must not have a Doppler Effect.


Answer to (1) When the Michelson interferometer experiment arose,
there should
have been at least one physicist or mathematician to raise the
question of whether
we can assume the doppler effect exists for lightwaves. Because the
Interferometer
actually measures wavelengths. So beyond 1887, some people, a few
should have
no longer assumed or presumed that lightwaves obey a Doppler Effect
and begin
to experiment or look for Doppler effect on lightwaves. To my
knowledge, noone
did any such. Noone even raised the question, and all were asleep
under the assumption.


(2) Should anyone have questioned whether a Doppler Effect existed on
lightwaves
after Special Relativity was formulated by Lorentz, Poincare and
later
by Einstein?
Answer (2) as David even mentions that SR comes into question with
the
Doppler
Effect. But here again, apparently not a single person in physics nor
mathematics
raised the fundamental questions of whether SR can support a Doppler
Effect
on lightwaves?


(3) So here comes 1929 with the Hubble Law and we can appreciate how
totally
immersed into the belief or misbelief of a Doppler Shift prevalent
and
pervasive.
So the question is by 1929 and after, what chances were there that
anyone in
physics or mathematics was sober enough to ask the fundamental
question:
is Doppler (sic) lightwaves and Special Relativity compatible or
contradictory?
Answer: By the time of the Hubble Law, only a lone wolf could ask for
a objective
research into whether Doppler Effect on lightwaves contradicted
Special Relativity.


Do you see the historical pattern, David? That a Doppler effect was
so
presumed,
that noone from 1842 to 2010, had the objective commonsense to
question
the assumption of whether lightwaves can have a Doppler shift.


Now, possibly a mathematician from 1842 to 2010 is more likely to
call
attention
to the question of whether Doppler is compatible with SR. Since a
mathematician
often works with consistency and with contradictions. A physicist is
unlikely to
have suspected anything wrong. And a mathematician is more likely to
spot where
a scientist is "making an assumption" that needs valid evidence. From
Christian
Doppler in 1842, who was a mathematician, noone really stepped up and
said
"let us no longer assume lightwaves can be Doppler shifted, but let
us
show
evidence that such is or is not the case." Noone did this. They were
crushed
under the avalanche of Hubble's law and then under the mountain of
the
Doppler radar misnomer.


Noteworthy, David, there has never been a eye witness case example to
anything
involving light and a Doppler shift. Unlike sound from a train to
prove Doppler shift
on Soundwaves, noone has seen a Doppler shift on lightwaves. And
there
is one
case in particular that a Doppler Shift should occur but has not. And
that case is
the radio on the Space Station with the astronauts. Their radio is
not
Doppler shifted
of any radio signal from ground. If their radio has no Doppler shift,
then no Doppler
shift on lightwaves exists. If the world has any Doppler shift, the
radio turned on
in the Space Station listening to radio ground waves should have a
Doppler shift.
But they have no shift.


And the Space Station is a similar experiment to the Michelson Morley
experiment where
the end result in both cases is a "null result". No Doppler shift in
either the Space Station
nor the Michelson interferometer.


Final question David: How could so many be fooled into thinking their
radar waves were
Doppler shifted? Answer: easily fooled since the speed of the object
is begot whether
a Doppler shift exists or does not exist when using the radar
gadgets.

--- end quoting my previous post ---

Basically what I want to direct the attention of the
Physics and Math community is the attention to the
fact that a Doppler Shift on lightwaves or EM spectrum
is nonexistent and is easily proven by the fact that any car radio
antennae is never Doppler shifted to radio waves, whether the car is
in motion or not. And the
Space Station of astronauts moving at large speeds compared to the
puny car speeds has no Doppler shift
on ground based radio waves.

So if there is no Doppler shift on radio waves, no matter what the
speed of source versus object, then
why in the world would anyone believe Doppler Effect
occurrs on any EM wave?


Archimedes Plutonium
http://www.iw.net/~a_plutonium/
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

So this really brings up a funny, laughable situation in modern day
physics. Where
we have legions of physicists swearing that lightwaves are Doppler
affected, yet
all along, they could zap a moving car with radio waves instead of
radar waves.

How modern physics has reams and reams full of nonsense about how
radar is
Doppler shifted, yet all along, when you zap the same vehicle with
radio waves,
never a Doppler in a blue moon. Worse yet, never a Doppler. Nada a
Doppler.
Just as Michelson found a null result for the luminiferous aether,
here we
have the whole of the physics community finding Doppler's everywhere
with a
Radar waves yet when they switch to Radio waves, lo and behold, never
a
Doppler.

So what are the physicists going to do for this? Say that Radio waves
are
exceptions? Say that radio waves are intercepted by a Higgs boson? Say
that
Radio waves are in a black hole or dark matter exit.


So you must really wonder how the physics community could be so
klutzy,
so dumbfounded. That you had Doppler Effect since 1842 and by 1887
with
the Michelson Experiment and the interferometer that noone in physics
take the logical next step by asking the question-- "can a Doppler
Effect
exist on light waves and the EM spectrum?"

Apparently noone in physics was clever enough and all were dunces
since
1887.

But surely, when Special Relativity came around 1900 with Lorentz and
Poincare and then later Einstein, surely the question must have arisen
that
"can a Doppler Effect exist on the EM spectrum." If this were
mathematics
instead of physics, surely someone would have noticed that both the
Michelson
Experiment and the Principle of Special Relativity goes counter to a
Doppler
Effect existing on EM spectrum. But not a peep, not a whimper from the
physics community. Rather instead a entire bogus and fake field was
hatch
and called the Doppler Radar. Was there really anyone awake in physics
from 1900 to 2010? Apparently not.

And such simple means of proving that a Doppler Effect cannot exist on
EM spectrum. Just take any car and travel to or away from a radio
emitting
source. And there is no Doppler shift to the radio waves. In fact the
fastest speed with people observing is the Space Station of astronauts
and they never notice any Doppler Effect with their radio picking up
ground
signals.

So really now. All these so called bright physicists running around
claiming
Doppler Radar and over yonder all the Radios with radio waves never
seeing or hearing any Doppler Effect.

So this has got to be one of the most laughable history moments in all
of
physics, of how the king of sciences-- physics has had one of its most
embarrassing and comical lapse of logic and reason.

Maybe it is because the schools in education fobb off too much details
and mathematics of unimportant minutae that noone in physics spends
time on clear thinking and logical thinking.

Maybe it is because the schools look for the students that are parrots
of
the teachers and the teachers are the parrots of the mainstream, that
noone in the education system fosters the "logical mind."

How could Radio waves be overlooked from 1900 to 2010 and where Radar
waves are saddled with the goobledygook nonsense of Doppler shifting?

And the car with radio or the Space Station with radio, how neat is
that? That
here we have what I call a boardable or "get inside" of an
interferometer. Michelson
would have been pleased to find that in 2010, a poster realized that
we can have
a Interferometer that is so large that a scientist can get inside the
car or
Space Station and measure the Radio waves as a interferometer.

So why is it, that we can have scientists spend their entire lives
dealing and
dabbling with radar and falling prey to a Doppler Radar, yet never in
their
life of physics, come to question can a Doppler shift exist on EM
waves?

Why are scientists so gullible? Why are they so rarely logical and
clear
in perception? Most of them are herd instinct and parrots of what they
believe others believe is true.

So for a 100 plus 10 years, for 110 years not one single physicist
noticed
that Radio waves never Doppler shift, yet they were all positive and
sure
that Radar waves Doppler shifted. How dunce is that?

When Einstein harped about riding on a light wave and remarking that
the speed of an oncoming lightwave would still be the speed of light
of
c and not c - c, should have alerted even the most dullard in the
physics
community that the Doppler Effect was questionable. Even the most
dense and dullard and dolt in physics should have questioned whether
Doppler shift was compatible with Special Relativity. But it never
happened.

What did happen was that I would come to write the Atom Totality book
and in those writings, I would traverse or trespass over Special
Relativity
and Doppler Effect, and with my logical mind, it would grab my
attention.
And it is all history now.

Archimedes Plutonium
http://www.iw.net/~a_plutonium/
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

radio waves instead of radar waves.

What's your perceived difference between the two?

(RADAR = Radio Detection And Ranging)

--
pete

On Jun 6, 12:22*am, pete wrote:
Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
radio waves instead of radar waves.

What's your perceived difference between the two?

(RADAR = Radio Detection And Ranging)

You are letting reality get in the way of philosophy.

pete wrote:
Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

radio waves instead of radar waves.

What's your perceived difference between the two?

(RADAR = Radio Detection And Ranging)

--
pete

Wavelength of some typical EM spectrum:

Radar 10km to 1 km

AM 1 km to 100 m

FM 10 m to 1 m

The difference I wanted to point out is that the radar for Doppler
radar (with its alleged
Doppler shift) is all assumption that a Doppler shift took place. So
it is an imaginary Doppler
shift with no proof of a shift having occurred.

The AM and FM on the other hand has the receiver inside the moving car
or the moving
Space Station (whether they can pick up the AM and FM stations). Here,
the Doppler
shift is either existing or nonexisting, since the radio would have to
be fine tuned
as per changing of the speed of the vehicle and direction of the
vehicle.

The point I am making is that the Radar operation does not answer the
question of whether
a Doppler shift in fact exists, but imposes an alleged Shift took
place. The Radio as
receiver is the piece of equipement that answers the question of
whether a Doppler shift
exists in the first place.

So now, let us say someone rigged a Radar that was AM radio waves and
zapped a
car moving at a fast speed away. Would the AM radio have to make any
adjustments compared to the
same car if stationary? What the radio proves, the Radar only assumes,
is that the Radio
can actually detect whether a Doppler shift had occurred, because the
radio would have
to make adjustments, depending on whether it is a coming towards or
away and how fast.

As far as I know, no radio has ever needed a adjustment because of the
speed of the vessel
containing the radio. That means, EM waves have no Doppler effect.


Archimedes Plutonium
http://www.iw.net/~a_plutonium/
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

On Jun 6, 1:39*am, Archimedes Plutonium
wrote:
pete wrote:
Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

radio waves instead of radar waves.

What's your perceived difference between the two?

(RADAR = Radio Detection And Ranging)

--
pete

Wavelength of some typical EM spectrum:

Radar 10km to 1 km

AM 1 km to 100 m

FM 10 m to 1 m

The difference I wanted to point out is that the radar for Doppler
radar (with its alleged
Doppler shift) is all assumption that a Doppler shift took place. So
it is an imaginary Doppler
shift with no proof of a shift having occurred.

The AM and FM on the other hand has the receiver inside the moving car
or the moving
Space Station (whether they can pick up the AM and FM stations). Here,
the Doppler
shift is either existing or nonexisting, since the radio would have to
be fine tuned
as per changing of the speed of the vehicle and direction of the
vehicle.

The point I am making is that the Radar operation does not answer the
question of whether
a Doppler shift in fact exists, but imposes an alleged Shift took
place. The Radio as
receiver is the piece of equipement that answers the question of
whether a Doppler shift
exists in the first place.

So now, let us say someone rigged a Radar that was AM radio waves and
zapped a
car moving at a fast speed away. Would the AM radio have to make any
adjustments compared to the
same car if stationary? What the radio proves, the Radar only assumes,
is that the Radio
can actually detect whether a Doppler shift had occurred, because the
radio would have
to make adjustments, depending on whether it is a coming towards or
away and how fast.

As far as I know, no radio has ever needed a adjustment because of the
speed of the vessel
containing the radio. That means, EM waves have no Doppler effect.

Can you testify at my next speeding hearing?

Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
pete wrote:
Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

radio waves instead of radar waves.

What's your perceived difference between the two?

(RADAR = Radio Detection And Ranging)

--
pete

Wavelength of some typical EM spectrum:

Radar 10km to 1 km

AM 1 km to 100 m

FM 10 m to 1 m

You have a sadly lacking understanding of radar, to say the very least.
Most radar operates at wavelengths less than one metre; many systems operate
at a few cm. For example, the K-band used by police to detect car speeds
operates between 1.1 and 1.7 cm.

A few operate at longer wavelengths (over 1m) for specialized purposes.


The difference I wanted to point out is that the radar for Doppler
radar (with its alleged
Doppler shift) is all assumption that a Doppler shift took place. So
it is an imaginary Doppler
shift with no proof of a shift having occurred.

You tried this on in court to defend your speeding citation, I take it? How
did that go?


The AM and FM on the other hand has the receiver inside the moving car
or the moving
Space Station (whether they can pick up the AM and FM stations). Here,
the Doppler
shift is either existing or nonexisting, since the radio would have to
be fine tuned
as per changing of the speed of the vehicle and direction of the
vehicle.

Do they listen to Earthbound FM radio on the ISS?


The point I am making is that the Radar operation does not answer the
question of whether
a Doppler shift in fact exists, but imposes an alleged Shift took
place. The Radio as
receiver is the piece of equipement that answers the question of
whether a Doppler shift
exists in the first place.

So it's all a conspiracy?


So now, let us say someone rigged a Radar that was AM radio waves and
zapped a
car moving at a fast speed away. Would the AM radio have to make any

AM waves are long, hundreds of metres, and are not used for radar in police
radar instruments.

adjustments compared to the
same car if stationary? What the radio proves, the Radar only assumes,
is that the Radio
can actually detect whether a Doppler shift had occurred, because the
radio would have
to make adjustments, depending on whether it is a coming towards or
away and how fast.

As far as I know, no radio has ever needed a adjustment because of the
speed of the vessel
containing the radio. That means, EM waves have no Doppler effect.


Or they are too small to need to be taken into account at shipping and
motoring speeds.


Archimedes Plutonium
http://www.iw.net/~a_plutonium/
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

Mike Dworetsky wrote:
Archimedes Plutonium wrote:


Wavelength of some typical EM spectrum:

Radar

IF (sic) You have a sadly lacking understanding of radar, to say the
very least.

Most radar operates at wavelengths less than one metre; many systems operate
at a few cm. For example, the K-band used by police to detect car speeds
operates between 1.1 and 1.7 cm.

A few operate at longer wavelengths (over 1m) for specialized purposes.




AM 1 km to 100 m

FM 10 m to 1 m

Mike has made a valuable contribution to the above synopsis. Notice I
did add a
"IF". Others can sharpen up the above.

The only thing lacking in Mike's post is a failure to comprehend that
he should no
longer "assume that lightwaves can be Doppler shifted" but must prove
that
lightwaves can or cannot be Doppler shifted. Mike is no mathematician,
because
no matter how simple, how obvious is a statement in mathematics, that
a proof
needs be provided. We run across this in mathematics all the time,
that we have
to **prove** a statement no matter how obvious. Now I do remember in
High School
Euclidean geometry proofs that sometimes the proof is so obvious that
we wonder
why we bother to even prove it. But it is important that we prove
rather than assume
because when we assume, we get into a lot of trouble as what can be
seen as a
wasted 110 years in physics and astronomy with their sole reliance on
a Doppler
Shift that never existed.

Well in physics, the Doppler Shift
on Lightwaves was never given any sort of proof that lightwaves are
not Doppler
shifter or, are Doppler Shifted. Ever since Christian Doppler proposed
the shift
in 1842, well, physicists have never tested or experimented for a
proof. They
simply assumed Doppler Shifted EM spectrum existed.

How could physicists have been so narrowminded, so shortsighted? They
looked
at Sound waves and said "aha, a shift occurrs" but rather than prove
whether a
shift occurs with lightwaves, well, they were all greenhorns of
physics.

Too bad that physicists never really understood the fuller
implications of the Michelson
Morley Experiment for it implies EM waves cannot be Doppler Shifted.
Then, awfully
bad that the Special Relativity Principle was never fully understood
by our modern
day physicists, because a Doppler Shifted EM wave contradicts Special
Relativity.

Proof that there is no Doppler Shift of EM waves: the proof is easy
and simple
and is a common everyday occurrence. Turn on your radio any day of the
week or
year and go towards a radio broadcaster and then away from the radio
broadcaster.
Your radio is the same whether you are speeding towards or away from
the broadcasting
source. There never was a Doppler Shift. The Space Station right now
with its astronauts
listening to any radio broadcaster on Earth has no Doppler Shift of
those radio EM signals.

Archimedes Plutonium
http://www.iw.net/~a_plutonium/
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

On Jun 6, 4:59*am, Ostap Bender wrote:
On Jun 6, 1:39*am, Archimedes Plutonium



wrote:
pete wrote:
Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

radio waves instead of radar waves.

What's your perceived difference between the two?

(RADAR = Radio Detection And Ranging)

--
pete

Wavelength of some typical EM spectrum:

Radar 10km to 1 km

AM 1 km to 100 m

FM 10 m to 1 m

The difference I wanted to point out is that the radar for Doppler
radar (with its alleged
Doppler shift) is all assumption that a Doppler shift took place. So
it is an imaginary Doppler
shift with no proof of a shift having occurred.

The AM and FM on the other hand has the receiver inside the moving car
or the moving
Space Station (whether they can pick up the AM and FM stations). Here,
the Doppler
shift is either existing or nonexisting, since the radio would have to
be fine tuned
as per changing of the speed of the vehicle and direction of the
vehicle.

The point I am making is that the Radar operation does not answer the
question of whether
a Doppler shift in fact exists, but imposes an alleged Shift took
place. The Radio as
receiver is the piece of equipement that answers the question of
whether a Doppler shift
exists in the first place.

So now, let us say someone rigged a Radar that was AM radio waves and
zapped a
car moving at a fast speed away. Would the AM radio have to make any
adjustments compared to the
same car if stationary? What the radio proves, the Radar only assumes,
is that the Radio
can actually detect whether a Doppler shift had occurred, because the
radio would have
to make adjustments, depending on whether it is a coming towards or
away and how fast.

As far as I know, no radio has ever needed a adjustment because of the
speed of the vessel
containing the radio. That means, EM waves have no Doppler effect.

Can you testify at my next speeding hearing?

Yeah. Doppler effect caused you seeing green instead of red.

If that doesn't work, try "Better dead than red" line. Have John Birch
Society membership card handy.

On Jun 6, 4:39*am, Archimedes Plutonium
wrote:
pete wrote:
Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

radio waves instead of radar waves.

Wavelength of some typical EM spectrum:

Radar 10km to 1 km

AM 1 km to 100 m

FM 10 m to 1 m


Well the Redshift may not be due to a Doppler effect but that does not
mean that you aren't a moron.
Where is Uncle Al when you need him.

Sorry but Doppler shift occurs with ALL EM radiation and that includes
radar waves. Note you haven't a clue what your are talking about. Go
see Andro for some "engineering" lessons! X band radar has a
wavelength of about an inch or so. C band is what? 3 inches? Idiot.

Note that cop speed meters are all using lasers now so light clearly
has a doppler effect (you can easily set it up yourself) I have.

Here's a good rule for you to follow: Please engage brain before
employing mouth in a worldwide forum.