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#81
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"SpaceShipTwo could be single stage to SUBorbit"
On 5/15/2010 7:55 PM, Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:
Huh? Umm. No. But if you were in 1903 claiming that flying 400 passengers at a time across the Atlantic was "just a few years away" I'd be making the same argument. The state of the art was far from it. I think one of the basic problems is that it's possible to make a primitive rocket engine and still have it be usable for something. A "primitive scramjet" is a oxymoron, so you have to spend a fortune just getting something that will work at all, much less be an improvement on rocket technology to do the same job. Pat |
#82
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"SpaceShipTwo could be single stage to SUBorbit"
On 16/05/2010 5:28 PM, Pat Flannery wrote:
On 5/15/2010 7:10 PM, Sylvia Else wrote: If you also filled up the passenger compartment with fuel leaving only a pilot's cabin could it even become orbital? No. It would collapse at the fuelling station. I'm thinking of catching a Canada Goose...and feeding it on a diet of black powder mixed with corn meal...then, by replacing its beak with one made of quartz rods, sheathing the leading edge of its wing in reinforced carbon-carbon, and painting its belly feathers with a rubber-based ablator... ;-) Sounds good to me. Um, where do you ignite it? On second thoughts, I don't want to know. Sylvia. |
#83
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"SpaceShipTwo could be single stage to SUBorbit"
Pat Flannery wrote:
I'm thinking of catching a Canada Goose...and feeding it on a diet of black powder mixed with corn meal...then, by replacing its beak with one made of quartz rods, sheathing the leading edge of its wing in reinforced carbon-carbon, and painting its belly feathers with a rubber-based ablator... ;-) If he chooses you, he will try to kill you. -- pete |
#84
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"SpaceShipTwo could be single stage to SUBorbit"
On 17/05/2010 2:06 AM, Pat Flannery wrote:
On 5/16/2010 1:14 AM, Sylvia Else wrote: I'm thinking of catching a Canada Goose...and feeding it on a diet of black powder mixed with corn meal...then, by replacing its beak with one made of quartz rods, sheathing the leading edge of its wing in reinforced carbon-carbon, and painting its belly feathers with a rubber-based ablator... ;-) Sounds good to me. Um, where do you ignite it? On second thoughts, I don't want to know. If we were to take the airship Hindenburg, replace three of its hydrogen gasbags with ones containing oxygen, replace the fabric covering with one made of woven fullerene nanotubes, add a scramjet to the end of each of the tail fins, and install a SSME in the tip of the tail... Hmmm..... How long would an SSME run on the hydrogen in Hindenburg? But its ballistic cooefficient would be favourable for reentry, I'll grant you that. Sylvia. |
#85
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"SpaceShipTwo could be single stage to SUBorbit"
On 5/16/2010 1:14 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
I'm thinking of catching a Canada Goose...and feeding it on a diet of black powder mixed with corn meal...then, by replacing its beak with one made of quartz rods, sheathing the leading edge of its wing in reinforced carbon-carbon, and painting its belly feathers with a rubber-based ablator... ;-) Sounds good to me. Um, where do you ignite it? On second thoughts, I don't want to know. If we were to take the airship Hindenburg, replace three of its hydrogen gasbags with ones containing oxygen, replace the fabric covering with one made of woven fullerene nanotubes, add a scramjet to the end of each of the tail fins, and install a SSME in the tip of the tail... Pat |
#86
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"SpaceShipTwo could be single stage to SUBorbit"
On 5/16/2010 5:09 AM, pete wrote:
I'm thinking of catching a Canada Goose...and feeding it on a diet of black powder mixed with corn meal...then, by replacing its beak with one made of quartz rods, sheathing the leading edge of its wing in reinforced carbon-carbon, and painting its belly feathers with a rubber-based ablator... ;-) If he chooses you, he will try to kill you. Ocean liners travel through water, which is made out of hydrogen and oxygen, making it perfect rocket fuel... Pat |
#87
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"SpaceShipTwo could be single stage to SUBorbit"
On 5/16/2010 5:12 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
If we were to take the airship Hindenburg, replace three of its hydrogen gasbags with ones containing oxygen, replace the fabric covering with one made of woven fullerene nanotubes, add a scramjet to the end of each of the tail fins, and install a SSME in the tip of the tail... Hmmm..... How long would an SSME run on the hydrogen in Hindenburg? If we were to fill the gasbags with liquid or slush hydrogen, rather than normal hydrogen, they could hold much more.... Another idea I've had is to take a oil tanker truck, wrap the tank in piano wire except for the back end, fill it full of nitroglycerin, and give the driver a parachute as well as a trashcan lid to use as a heatshield on his way back home. Why the makers of oil tanker trucks never realized that with just a few simple modifications their vehicles could be turned into space launch vehicles baffles me. I suspect it is because they are not as smart as I am. ;-) Pat |
#88
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"SpaceShipTwo could be single stage to SUBorbit"
"J. Clarke" wrote in message ... On 5/14/2010 9:08 AM, Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote: J. Clarke wrote: On 5/13/2010 11:12 PM, Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote: J. Clarke wrote: Scramjets work. Get used to it. Really? How many flight hours do they have? Enough to show that they work. How many have been flown more than once? Enough to show that they work. Umm, really? I don't know of any that have flown for more than a few minutes at my most recent research didn't reveal any that were reflown. So how many Saturn Vs flew more than a few minutes and how many were reflown? I guess they don't work either. Apples and orangutans. Saturn V completed its mission each and every time (launch to orbit), despite several well documented anomolies that were addressed in later vehicles. You're arguing for scramjets for hypersonic cruise and launch to orbit. They need to run much more than a few seconds to do so. Therefore, they're NOT a proven technology for the applications you're talking about. But as you seem to know, perhaps you can point me to the ones that have flown for hours. And the ones that have reflown. Straw man. Hardly. Jeff -- "Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National Lampoon |
#89
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"SpaceShipTwo could be single stage to SUBorbit"
"J. Clarke" wrote in message ... On 5/14/2010 11:16 AM, Jeff Findley wrote: "J. wrote in message ... On 5/14/2010 12:05 AM, Jorge R. Frank wrote: On 05/13/2010 05:08 PM, J. Clarke wrote: On 5/13/2010 4:04 PM, Jeff Findley wrote: "Pat wrote in message dakotatelephone... On 5/13/2010 9:10 AM, LSMFT wrote: What happened to the X-30? And since when did 50,000 feet become outer space? I like the part about it using a "liquid chemical propulsion system", without specifying what those chemicals are exactly. You could certainly make a ground takeoff rocket plane that could climb to 50,000 feet, but since numerous types of jet aircraft are capable of flying to 50,000 feet also, what would be the point of doing this? The promises made by X-30 were absolutely silly, in retrospect. A vehicle which can cruise at hypersonic speeds is going to be very different than a vehicle which can accelerate to orbital speeds, yet somehow X-30 was being sold as able to do both (makes me think of the SNL skit for Shimmer, a floor polish and a dessert topping). So let's see, a vehicle that can cruise at Mach 20 is going to be different from one that can accelerate to Mach 25 how, exactly? If you haven't figured it out on your own, it is not going to be worth anyone's time to explain it to you. But the quick-and-dirty is that cruising at Mach 20 with an airbreather is going to require remaining at an altitude where there is enough O2 to keep the engine going, which radically increases the total heat load. Which heat load goes into the fuel and out the exhaust. Whereas a Mach 25 accelerator will only spend a brief amount of time in the Mach region where a scramjet will do any good, so it will need two additional propulsion systems: one to accelerate to the minimum speed to light the scramjet, another (necessarily rocket-based) to take over for the final boost to orbit once the scramjet is useless. The additional weight of having three propulsion systems more than outweighs the advantages of the airbreather. You seem to have missed the point. IMO scramjets are daft for either mission. It's at times like this that I really miss Henry Spencer. He could explain this far more eloquently than I could. So what do you recommend for Mach 20 cruise if scramjets are "daft" for it? That's a little like Peter Pan asking "What would you recommend for human flight besides fairy dust?". Neither fairy dust nor runway to Mach 20 hypersonic air breathing engines exist. The difference between the two is that one is obviously pure fantasy even to non-engineers where the other is only an obvious fantasy to those who know enough about engineering to crunch the numbers for themselves and realize that the math just doesn't work out. In an apples to apples comparison, rocket engines for orbital launch vehicles beat even drawing board air breathing launch vehicles for the reasons which Jorge states. Math always trumps faith when it comes to engineering. I see. So your view is that Mach 20 cruise simply cannot be done, it's eternally impossible and the laws of the universe forbid it. That's not exctly what I'm saying. I'm saying that an air breathing Mach 20 cruise vehicle isn't the same as an orbital launch vehicle. Furthermore, there is no air breathing Mach 20 cruise vehicle in existence today. You're the one claiming that such an air breathing engine/vehicle would make a useful launch vehicle. I'm claiming that such an engine/vehicle does not exist. People like you are pimples on the ass of progress. If hypersonic air breathing engines were easy, we'd have them by now. They're not easy. In fact, they're damn hard. They haven't been proven successful due to lack of trying. As I've said before, they are a research topic and people *have* been trying very hard to make them work, but all we have to show for it are a few test articles that have shown to produce positive thrust at cruise for a total duration best measured in seconds. Once the technology matures into something useful for hypersonic cruise, we can re-run the numbers to see if they can do better than liquid fueled rocket engines for orbital launch vehicles. Current numbers show that in an apples to apples comparison that today's drawing board air breathing hypersonic engines simply aren't useful for orbital launch vehicles. Again, anyone who claims otherwise is selling you snake oil. LOX is one of the cheapest fluids on the planet to manufacture because it's made from air. Considering the state of the art in air breathing engines, trying to get LOX off of your launch vehicles to "save money" is a fool's errand. Jeff -- "Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National Lampoon |
#90
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"SpaceShipTwo could be single stage to SUBorbit"
On 5/17/2010 6:48 AM, Jeff Findley wrote:
You're arguing for scramjets for hypersonic cruise and launch to orbit. They need to run much more than a few seconds to do so. Therefore, they're NOT a proven technology for the applications you're talking about. They are going to take a crack at getting one up to Mach 6.5 shortly: http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n1005/16waverider/ Pat |
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