Keith Cowing Thinks NASA Will Grow Plants on the Moon

Just like they do on the ISS!

Did anyone else have their bull**** detector go up in a puff of smoke
like mine did here?

kT wrote:

Just like they do on the ISS!


Well, growing plants would help reduce CO2 and also provide some veggies
for dinner. Assuming that the selected plants don't mind 15 day periods
of daylight and 15 days of darkness. There may well be plants that can
handle it, even though Earth doesn't force it. Or just grow something
that grows very fast and produces something you can eat before the 15
days are up. Then next month start again with a fresh batch of seeds.

Technically it's still half day and half night, irrespective of the
length of the day, and the driving technology is energy storage for
lighting. However, I think they were relying on the polar crater thing.

I hate to have to build a storage system that can run lights bright
enough to grow plants. It takes a lot of light to drive photosynthesis,
much more than that needed for human color eyesight. Thus the
requirement that the selected farm plants not mind the long days and
nights. Maybe something from the Arctic regions, though I can't think
of anything up there that anyone eats.

Given the cost of these adventures, and the shortness of the LEO day, it
would be a no brainer to get this stuff going on the ISS, particularly
since we have very little experience with 0 g plant growing techniques.

The Moon does have some gravity, about 1/6 of Earth's. Probably enough
for growing plants to find the "up" and "down" directions.

The problem I have with all this is the hypocrisy - they haven't even
put much effort into the ground based simulations, the hydroponic earth
homes and the small scale closed ecological life support system tests.

I wouldn't expect that NASA would have lunar farms grow all the food for
the astronauts, at least in the beginning. Most of the food would be
the same stuff they eat on the ISS or shuttle, and the farm plants
provide a little supplementary fresh veggies to add to the dinner.

And then you'd need some of the astronauts who like to garden to take
care of the farm plants. But not everyone is into gardening.

These are things that have startup costs in the quarter million range,
and are necessary prerequisites for all that follow on the ISS and moon.

It's probably easier to plan for 1/6 gravity than it would be for 0 g.
Should be something a university could throw together to simulate
everything except the gravity field. Or run some tests at higher g's on
a centrafuge(sp) and see if the plants seem to have issues or not.
After that, run some tests on a shuttle flight at simulated low gravity.
As you say, this shouldn't cost all that much to do, other than the
shuttle trip.

robert casey wrote:

kT wrote:

Just like they do on the ISS!


Well, growing plants would help reduce CO2 and also provide some veggies
for dinner. Assuming that the selected plants don't mind 15 day periods
of daylight and 15 days of darkness. There may well be plants that can
handle it, even though Earth doesn't force it. Or just grow something
that grows very fast and produces something you can eat before the 15
days are up. Then next month start again with a fresh batch of seeds.

Technically it's still half day and half night, irrespective of the
length of the day, and the driving technology is energy storage for
lighting. However, I think they were relying on the polar crater thing.

Given the cost of these adventures, and the shortness of the LEO day, it
would be a no brainer to get this stuff going on the ISS, particularly
since we have very little experience with 0 g plant growing techniques.

The problem I have with all this is the hypocrisy - they haven't even
put much effort into the ground based simulations, the hydroponic earth
homes and the small scale closed ecological life support system tests.
These are things that have startup costs in the quarter million range,
and are necessary prerequisites for all that follow on the ISS and moon.

In article ,
robert casey wrote:

Well, growing plants would help reduce CO2 and also provide some veggies
for dinner.

It's also surprisingly good for morale.

Assuming that the selected plants don't mind 15 day periods
of daylight and 15 days of darkness.

Or that you grow them under artificial lights, of course.

Best,
- Joe

--
"Polywell" fusion -- an approach to nuclear fusion that might actually work.
Learn more and discuss via: http://www.strout.net/info/science/polywell/

In article ,
robert casey wrote:


Technically it's still half day and half night, irrespective of the
length of the day, and the driving technology is energy storage for
lighting. However, I think they were relying on the polar crater thing.

I hate to have to build a storage system that can run lights bright
enough to grow plants.

We'll get somebody else, then.

Seriously though, there are a lot of ways to skin that cat, and it's
something we're going to need to solve sooner or later anyway.
Basically you can divide them into two categories: storage, and
continuous production. Under storage we have lots of options, ranging
from batteries to flywheels to fuel cells. Under continuous production
there are nuclear reactors, beamed power, and rotating solar towers
positioned on some peak of eternal light.

It takes a lot of light to drive photosynthesis,
much more than that needed for human color eyesight. Thus the
requirement that the selected farm plants not mind the long days and
nights. Maybe something from the Arctic regions, though I can't think
of anything up there that anyone eats.

That's not a requirement, that's a design decision you've made. Not one
I would agree with, myself.

Given the cost of these adventures, and the shortness of the LEO day, it
would be a no brainer to get this stuff going on the ISS, particularly
since we have very little experience with 0 g plant growing techniques.

The Moon does have some gravity, about 1/6 of Earth's. Probably enough
for growing plants to find the "up" and "down" directions.

Yes, but the quote you quoted is talking about LEO, not the Moon.

The problem I have with all this is the hypocrisy - they haven't even
put much effort into the ground based simulations, the hydroponic earth
homes and the small scale closed ecological life support system tests.

I wouldn't expect that NASA would have lunar farms grow all the food for
the astronauts, at least in the beginning. Most of the food would be
the same stuff they eat on the ISS or shuttle, and the farm plants
provide a little supplementary fresh veggies to add to the dinner.

Maybe, but both you and the guy you're replying to (you failed to
attribute the quoted material) seem to be ignorant of the work NASA has
done on exactly this. See
http://lifesci3.arc.nasa.gov/SpaceSettlement/designer/regen.html for
example. There's also some more recent work using LEDs or sulfur
microwave lamps whose spectra are tuned to the absorption spectrum of
the plants being grown. It's a pretty active area, and yes, real
full-up growth chambers have been operated for extended periods on Earth.

It's probably easier to plan for 1/6 gravity than it would be for 0 g.

True.

Should be something a university could throw together to simulate
everything except the gravity field.

We've been there, done that. There's really no reason to think that
plants are going to grow much differently in 1/6 g, at least at first.
In the long run, after genetic tinkering or selective breeding, we might
develop lunar-adapted strains of crops that spend less energy supporting
their weight and put more into the useful parts. But initially,
anything that grows well in a growth chamber here should be fine on the
Moon.

Best,
- Joe

--
"Polywell" fusion -- an approach to nuclear fusion that might actually work.
Learn more and discuss via: http://www.strout.net/info/science/polywell/

robert casey wrote:

And then you'd need some of the astronauts who like to garden to take
care of the farm plants. But not everyone is into gardening.

Hydroponics isn't hard, I have several proprietary gravity systems that
would work fine in lunar gravity, but eventually adhesion friction would
catch up to you in microgravity, the so called house keeping gravities.

We've thought up some interesting variable g geometries, far out stuff.

These are things that have startup costs in the quarter million range,
and are necessary prerequisites for all that follow on the ISS and moon.

It's probably easier to plan for 1/6 gravity than it would be for 0 g.
Should be something a university could throw together to simulate
everything except the gravity field. Or run some tests at higher g's on
a centrafuge(sp) and see if the plants seem to have issues or not. After
that, run some tests on a shuttle flight at simulated low gravity.
As you say, this shouldn't cost all that much to do, other than the
shuttle trip.

Well, mostly I was thinking about the billions of dollars that could be
saved with consumable resupply. The whole idea is to 'live in space'.

robert casey wrote:

:
:
: Technically it's still half day and half night, irrespective of the
: length of the day, and the driving technology is energy storage for
: lighting. However, I think they were relying on the polar crater thing.
:
:I hate to have to build a storage system that can run lights bright
:enough to grow plants. It takes a lot of light to drive photosynthesis,
:much more than that needed for human color eyesight. Thus the
:requirement that the selected farm plants not mind the long days and
:nights. Maybe something from the Arctic regions, though I can't think
f anything up there that anyone eats.
:

I don't think you're going to get any food plants that will take that
sort of light/dark cycle.

:
:
: The problem I have with all this is the hypocrisy - they haven't even
: put much effort into the ground based simulations, the hydroponic earth
: homes and the small scale closed ecological life support system tests.
:
:I wouldn't expect that NASA would have lunar farms grow all the food for
:the astronauts, at least in the beginning. Most of the food would be
:the same stuff they eat on the ISS or shuttle, and the farm plants
rovide a little supplementary fresh veggies to add to the dinner.
:
:And then you'd need some of the astronauts who like to garden to take
:care of the farm plants. But not everyone is into gardening.
:

Why would they have to like to garden? Most people make their livings
doing things they don't like. That's why 'work' is a 4-letter word.

:
:
: These are things that have startup costs in the quarter million range,
: and are necessary prerequisites for all that follow on the ISS and moon.
:
:It's probably easier to plan for 1/6 gravity than it would be for 0 g.
:Should be something a university could throw together to simulate
:everything except the gravity field. Or run some tests at higher g's on
:a centrafuge(sp) and see if the plants seem to have issues or not.
:

They do.

:
:After that, run some tests on a shuttle flight at simulated low gravity.
:As you say, this shouldn't cost all that much to do, other than the
:shuttle trip.
:

Not practical. How are you going to get your 'simulated low gravity'.
Keep in mind the size of the Shuttle bay.


--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw

On Oct 15, 6:34 pm, kT wrote:
Just like they do on the ISS!

Did anyone else have their bull**** detector go up in a puff of smoke
like mine did here?

He meant plants within the moon, because at least that's technically
doable, unless there's some kind of rad-hard DNA they're not telling
us about.
- Brad Guth -

On Oct 17, 7:05 pm, kT wrote:

The problem I have with all this is the hypocrisy - they haven't even
put much effort into the ground based simulations, the hydroponic earth
homes and the small scale closed ecological life support system tests.
These are things that have startup costs in the quarter million range,
and are necessary prerequisites for all that follow on the ISS and moon.

But you still believe we've walked on the moon, don't you?
- Brad Guth -