$4 billion a month!

Hop David wrote:

Scott Lowther wrote:
Alan Erskine wrote:


That's how much Iraq is costing just the U.S. - almost enough for a new
manned Moon program every month.


And about three seconds worth of failed social welfare programs.
Prioritise!


$1.33 billion/sec for social welfare programs. Okaaaay.

Here's a nice pie chart of FY 2001:
http://www.assmotax.org/Data/fedbud.php

That, oddly, does not include Social Security, which is as memory serves
a bigger chunk than the military.


I expect Military and Debt Service to surge even further ahead.

Bush cuts taxes and increases spending. He's taking the U.S. deeper into
credit card heaven. Here is a cartoon I made depicting this:
http://clowder.net/hop/etc./Bush.jpg

A masterpiece. A masterpiece of half truths, of course. Cutting tax
rates (thank you, Rand) stimulates the economy, and leads the increased
tax REVENUES (you know that word, yes?). Fighting "expensive" wars such
as Iraq *now*, when we can fight them on our own terms on the enemies
territory is, of course, far cheaper than sitting on our asses and
waiting for them to destroy American cities. Imagine how much better off
Britain would have been had they in 1936 decided to wage an "expensive"
war and slap down Hitler, or how much better off the US economy would be
had the Clinton administration spent a few extra pennies and taken down
bin Laden when given the chance, and thus prevented the hundredss of
billions in economic damage due to 9-11. But I guess preventative
measures are nowhere near as interesting as simply misrepresnting the
situation for political gain, eh?


--
Scott Lowther, Engineer

"Any statement by Edward Wright that starts with 'You seem to think
that...' is wrong. Always. It's a law of Usenet, like Godwin's."
- Jorge R. Frank, 11 Nov 2002

Scott Lowther wrote:

Hop David wrote:

Scott Lowther wrote:
Alan Erskine wrote:


That's how much Iraq is costing just the U.S. - almost enough for a new
manned Moon program every month.


And about three seconds worth of failed social welfare programs.
Prioritise!


$1.33 billion/sec for social welfare programs. Okaaaay.

Here's a nice pie chart of FY 2001:
http://www.assmotax.org/Data/fedbud.php
I believe most of what you call "failed social welfare programs" comes
under "Income security" which totaled $228 billion. $48 billion of that
is Federal workers retirement and disability which I don't regard as
welfare. I believe $180 billion is what we spent on social welfare in 2001.

$180 billion is a very distant third behind 2001's military expense (310
billion subtracting military retirement etc.) and Debt service (356
billion).

That, oddly, does not include Social Security, which is as memory serves
a bigger chunk than the military.

Ah, here we go:
http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy2001/guide02.html

For 1999 actual numbers ($Billions):
Military: 262
nonDoD Discrectioanry: 313
Social Security: 387
Medicare/medicaid: 296
Means-tested entitlements: 104
Other: 112

Now, my math may be a little rusty, but I suspect that $262B is somewhat
less than $387B + $296B + $104B. And that $387B + $296B + $104B is
rather MORE than $180B.

--
Scott Lowther, Engineer

"Any statement by Edward Wright that starts with 'You seem to think
that...' is wrong. Always. It's a law of Usenet, like Godwin's."
- Jorge R. Frank, 11 Nov 2002

Scott Lowther wrote:

Ah, here we go:
http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy2001/guide02.html

For 1999 actual numbers ($Billions):
Military: 262
nonDoD Discrectioanry: 313
Social Security: 387
Medicare/medicaid: 296

My father-in-law spent most of his life as a heavy equipment operator.
My dad worked most of his life in printshops. They both received social
security and medicare benefits. Are you saying they were welfare parasites?

Means-tested entitlements: 104
Other: 112

Now, my math may be a little rusty, but I suspect that $262B is somewhat
less than $387B + $296B + $104B. And that $387B + $296B + $104B is
rather MORE than $180B.


For the sake of argument I'll accept 787 billion/year going to crackhead
welfare cheats. That's about $25000/sec. I believe $25000/sec is rather
less than $4 billion/3 seconds.

Hop
http://clowder.net/hop/index.html

Hop David :


Earl Colby Pottinger wrote:

Really? I checked the article and I notice that it did not say what the
cost
of the same people are when they are not deployed. Problem, if the
standby
costs are $2 billion a month for example then Iraq is not costing $4
billion,
it is costing $2 billion a month.

Stories like this are inflating the claimed costs, infact depending on
the
standby costs the increase maybe a very large percentage.

Any idea what the real costs are?

Earl Colby Pottinger


From
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolit...e/Spending.asp

* The U.S. military budget request for Fiscal Year 2003 was $396.1 billion.
* The U.S. military budget request for Fiscal Year 2002 was $343.2 billion.


The difference of about 53 billion matches the 1 billion/week claim
fairly closely.

2000 was 288.8 billion.

Hop
http://clowder.net/hop/index.html

Alan Erskine pointed me to your link. Thank you very much, before I agree
with you I would like to study it over the weekend, but again thank you for
your fast reponse, it is a breath of fresh air compare to hot air some people
like to past around. (I don't mind if you think I am part of that hot air
either, I do post a lot.)

Earl Colby Pottinger

--
I make public email sent to me! Hydrogen Peroxide Rockets, OpenBeos,
SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. What happened to
the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

Hop David :


Scott Lowther wrote:
Alan Erskine wrote:


That's how much Iraq is costing just the U.S. - almost enough for a new
manned Moon program every month.


And about three seconds worth of failed social welfare programs.
Prioritise!


$1.33 billion/sec for social welfare programs. Okaaaay.

Here's a nice pie chart of FY 2001:
http://www.assmotax.org/Data/fedbud.php

I believe most of what you call "failed social welfare programs" comes
under "Income security" which totaled $228 billion. $48 billion of that
is Federal workers retirement and disability which I don't regard as
welfare. I believe $180 billion is what we spent on social welfare in 2001.

$180 billion is a very distant third behind 2001's military expense (310
billion subtracting military retirement etc.) and Debt service (356
billion).

I expect Military and Debt Service to surge even further ahead.

Bush cuts taxes and increases spending. He's taking the U.S. deeper into
credit card heaven. Here is a cartoon I made depicting this:
http://clowder.net/hop/etc./Bush.jpg

Hop
http://clowder.net/hop/index.html

Again, while I don't agree with you at the moment, thanks for the additional
URL.

Earl Colby Pottinger

--
I make public email sent to me! Hydrogen Peroxide Rockets, OpenBeos,
SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. What happened to
the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

Scott Lowther :

Scott Lowther wrote:

Hop David wrote:

Scott Lowther wrote:
Alan Erskine wrote:


That's how much Iraq is costing just the U.S. - almost enough for a
new
manned Moon program every month.


And about three seconds worth of failed social welfare programs.
Prioritise!


$1.33 billion/sec for social welfare programs. Okaaaay.

Here's a nice pie chart of FY 2001:
http://www.assmotax.org/Data/fedbud.php
I believe most of what you call "failed social welfare programs" comes
under "Income security" which totaled $228 billion. $48 billion of that
is Federal workers retirement and disability which I don't regard as
welfare. I believe $180 billion is what we spent on social welfare in
2001.

$180 billion is a very distant third behind 2001's military expense
(310
billion subtracting military retirement etc.) and Debt service (356
billion).

That, oddly, does not include Social Security, which is as memory serves
a bigger chunk than the military.

Ah, here we go:
http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy2001/guide02.html

For 1999 actual numbers ($Billions):
Military: 262
nonDoD Discrectioanry: 313
Social Security: 387
Medicare/medicaid: 296
Means-tested entitlements: 104
Other: 112

Now, my math may be a little rusty, but I suspect that $262B is somewhat
less than $387B + $296B + $104B. And that $387B + $296B + $104B is
rather MORE than $180B.

Thanks, Still more useful information. I see I am going to be doing a lot of
reading this weekend.

To those of you out there who wonder why I am acting this way, it is simple -
Atleast David and Scott are suppling figures behind their beliefs. Too many
time this group is filled with people who claim that thier way is best
without post any numbers to back thier claims. Numbers can be made to lie,
but you can only twist them so far before it stands out that you are making
false claims. Here I get a chance to review and make up my own mind. I just
wish more space.policy threads supplied numbers with thier arguements.

Earl Colby Pottinger


--
I make public email sent to me! Hydrogen Peroxide Rockets, OpenBeos,
SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. What happened to
the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

Hop David wrote:

Scott Lowther wrote:

Ah, here we go:
http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy2001/guide02.html

For 1999 actual numbers ($Billions):
Military: 262
nonDoD Discrectioanry: 313
Social Security: 387
Medicare/medicaid: 296

My father-in-law spent most of his life as a heavy equipment operator.
My dad worked most of his life in printshops. They both received social
security and medicare benefits. Are you saying they were welfare parasites?

Yep. My grandparents also recieved SS checks. Parasites on the workers
they were. Unintentionally, to be sure, and under the false assumption
that they were simply getting back the money they paid in. Sadly, what
they were getting was the money that *current* workers are paying in in,
in ever increasing quantities.

Social Securitry is a disaster waiting to happen, with no really good
answers... but continueing to gray the populace and increasign to tax
the workers is not a long-term viable option. At some point it will
collapse, and we'll try something else.

--
Scott Lowther, Engineer

"Any statement by Edward Wright that starts with 'You seem to think
that...' is wrong. Always. It's a law of Usenet, like Godwin's."
- Jorge R. Frank, 11 Nov 2002

Earl Colby Pottinger wrote:

I just wish more space.policy threads supplied numbers with thier arguements.

Now, what would be the fun in that?

--
Scott Lowther, Engineer

"Any statement by Edward Wright that starts with 'You seem to think
that...' is wrong. Always. It's a law of Usenet, like Godwin's."
- Jorge R. Frank, 11 Nov 2002

Scott Lowther wrote:
Hop David wrote:

Scott Lowther wrote:


Ah, here we go:
http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy2001/guide02.html

For 1999 actual numbers ($Billions):
Military: 262
nonDoD Discrectioanry: 313
Social Security: 387
Medicare/medicaid: 296

My father-in-law spent most of his life as a heavy equipment operator.
My dad worked most of his life in printshops. They both received social
security and medicare benefits. Are you saying they were welfare parasites?


Yep. My grandparents also recieved SS checks. Parasites on the workers
they were. Unintentionally, to be sure, and under the false assumption
that they were simply getting back the money they paid in. Sadly, what
they were getting was the money that *current* workers are paying in in,
in ever increasing quantities.

Social Securitry is a disaster waiting to happen, with no really good
answers... but continueing to gray the populace and increasign to tax
the workers is not a long-term viable option. At some point it will
collapse, and we'll try something else.



Some of problems came from extrapolating trends that didn't hold.
The designers of social security didn't anticipate falling birthrates
and longer life expectancy.

While I don't like subsidizing the crackheads down the street, I
certainly don't mind paying social security and medicare even though I
may not benefit from either.

Hop
http://clowder.net/hop/index.html

Rand Simberg wrote:

Are you unaware of corporate income tax?


Your point being? The tax cuts don't affect corporate tax.
It remains at 35%.

--
Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++