Patrick Moore's 15" reflector

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:12:09 GMT, (Maurice Gavin)
wrote:

I'm amused at the amusement of contributors on this posting regarding
the 'engineering' of this telescope. Just for the record that's how
scopes were in post WWII UK eg homebuilt including the mirror set [by
Peter Sartori if I recall] - this was pre blue/orange tubes off the
shelf !

eee... you were lucky ;-)

My first scope was an 8" reflector built out of galvanised steel
fencing for the open tube. The mirror sat in a wheel hub, tapped at
the sides for restraining screws. The whole lot was mounted on the
rear axle of a Bedford van diff and all. The tube was a tad heavy and
sat too far from the balance point. This resulted in the
counterweight swinging through a massive arc when the scope was slewed
in RA. Totally deadly. More than once did I crack my head on that
thing. It was permanently situated in my parent's garden. My little
brothers used to swing on it, pretending it was a gun out of the just
released Star Wars film. Ahhh, those were the days.

Today's amateur is completely spoilt for choice but when contemplating
a homebuilt observatory a DIY shed on a few bricks comes to mindg.
Why?

And long may it continue :-)


--
Pete
http://www.digitalsky.org.uk
Global Projects - http://www.globalobservers.net

Pete Lawrence wrote:
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:12:09 GMT, (Maurice Gavin)
wrote:
snip

The whole lot was mounted on the
rear axle of a Bedford van diff and all...

Ahh, that must be where I get my penchant for over engineering from (my
dad worked for Bedford trucks for many years).
At the risk of being both off topic and overly anal, you wouldn't know
what model van it was would you?

Today's amateur is completely spoilt for choice but when contemplating
a homebuilt observatory a DIY shed on a few bricks comes to mindg.
Why?

Ahh, but today's amateur only has a garden that's four foot square and
surrounded by security lights.


Tim

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:41:56 +0000, Pete Lawrence
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:12:09 GMT, (Maurice Gavin)
wrote:

I'm amused at the amusement of contributors on this posting regarding
the 'engineering' of this telescope. Just for the record that's how
scopes were in post WWII UK eg homebuilt including the mirror set [by
Peter Sartori if I recall] - this was pre blue/orange tubes off the
shelf !


Peter wrote:
My first scope was an 8" reflector built out of galvanised steel
fencing for the open tube. The mirror sat in a wheel hub, tapped at
the sides for restraining screws. The whole lot was mounted on the
rear axle of a Bedford van diff and all. Ahhh, those were the days.


Hi Peter / Maurice,
and the Summers were better and the year seemed to go much slower.
Ahhh, those were the days!

No, but seriously Peter, the mention of the van parts does bring back
memories of reading a few books from those halcyon days that Patrick
Moore wrote or edited suggesting the use of a car half-shaft. I have a
little 'Make Your Own Telescope' book somewhere by his late friend,
Reg Spry, that used, IIRC, something like that for his altazimuth
mounted Newtonian. Written by people of that post WW11 'mend and make
do' mentality (borne by a degree of necessity it has to be said - very
different times) that youngsters like us devoured.

My first telescope was a 6" F8 Newtonian patterned after a book by
James Muirden (or was it Paul Muirden) with a grade 'A' mirror from
David Hinds; did I save up for that! During (ahem) modifications
around 1980, I dropped the flat onto a stone floor and well... I still
have the mirror and I occasionally think about the possibility of
putting an OTA together to make an F8 'superplanetary' Newtonian! How
times change; it was F10 or F11 back then.

Obviously today, the internet allows us access to information that was
unheard of back in the seventies. Pictures of telescopes were few and
far between and I had to rely on a few contained usually in Patrick
Moore's books. The usual suspects were Patrick's own and Henry
Brinton's reflector plus H.K. Robins tremendous looking set-up. I have
tried to find information on Robins but have come up with nothing. I
recall a few photos of Patrick's 15" Newtonian in particular from a
Daily Express article around 1977. The images on Mark Parrish's
website have informed me a little. For some reason, I thought the
whole telescope apparatus was completely made by Fullerscopes. This
does not appear to be the case. Also, maybe its because I was a
schoolboy back then, but I believed the tube to be made of mahogany
and so was surprised to see it made out of plywood including the
mirror cell. Considering Patrick's stature, to find out that the OTA
was something of a 'Homebrew' construction is a little surprising. I
mean no disrespect to any that were involved in the OTA fabrication.
Perhaps I myself have become too distanced from such times by today's
plethora of 'off the shelf' equipment that Maurice alludes to.


Maurice wrote:
Today's amateur is completely spoilt for choice but when contemplating
a homebuilt observatory a DIY shed on a few bricks comes to mindg.
Why?


I can understand your thinking here, Maurice. I am sure it has
parallels amongst other pastimes. Electric guitarists seem to allocate
most of their budget on the guitar itself and then buy whatever
amplifier the rest of the money will allow. Their sound and tone would
be greatly improved if they ploughed most of their money into a
stonking amp and a relatively inexpensive guitar which due to
machinery these day are really good; regardless of the reasonable
price. One of those imponderables, maybe? But then a garden shed,
although certainly not immune, is a lot less noticeable to passing
inquisitive magpies than say a shiny fibreglass dome.

With today's telescope equipment and the increasing availability of
reasonably priced domes, certainly when compared to what quite a few
people do spend on the telescope side of things, we live in fortunate
times. Although sadly, maybe the post WW11 years would have allowed
the more secure use of a shiny dome compared to today. Can't have it
all, as they say.

All the best,
Squirrel

Good post. Just the sort of ramble I like myself.;-)

Hit the same warm spots for me too. I can well remember the lack of
images of amateur scopes. I'd send for Fullerscopes free illustrated
catalogue every year just in case there was a new picture. There
wasn't.
Sky & Telescope was too high tech, too much welding and too many
materials we could never get our hands on if we didn't work for
Douglass Macdonald fighters (or some such) I couldn't even get hold of
affordable "ally" sheet and had to learn to "fibreglass" myelf to
things.

It is lmost impossible to imagine today's immateur spending quality
time wandering round scrap yards and Woolworth's household wares in
search of just the right thing for a telescope. I still have boxes of
the stuff I collected "just in case".

I used to drive my wife mad by asking her for the exact dimensions of
just the right biscuit tins or Tupperware pots to cover primaries or
secondaries.

And where could one get decent, washable, glass pepper and salt shakers
for abrasives? Or safety single-sided razor-blades for testers and
slits for solar spectroscopes. Old helical-focus plastic cameras for
focussing mounts and synchronous motors from scrapped gaming machines
were like gold-dust!

Sawing 3/4" plywood into 24" circles with a fretsaw, that you couldn't
afford too many new blades for, has its moments.

Thanks for the memories. :-)

Regards
Chris.B

On 21 Feb 2005 00:37:24 -0800, wrote:

Good post. Just the sort of ramble I like myself.;-)

Hit the same warm spots for me too. I can well remember the lack of
images of amateur scopes. I'd send for Fullerscopes free illustrated
catalogue every year just in case there was a new picture. There
wasn't.
Sky & Telescope was too high tech, too much welding and too many
materials we could never get our hands on if we didn't work for
Douglass Macdonald fighters (or some such) I couldn't even get hold of
affordable "ally" sheet and had to learn to "fibreglass" myelf to
things.

It is lmost impossible to imagine today's immateur spending quality
time wandering round scrap yards and Woolworth's household wares in
search of just the right thing for a telescope. I still have boxes of
the stuff I collected "just in case".

I used to drive my wife mad by asking her for the exact dimensions of
just the right biscuit tins or Tupperware pots to cover primaries or
secondaries.

And where could one get decent, washable, glass pepper and salt shakers
for abrasives? Or safety single-sided razor-blades for testers and
slits for solar spectroscopes. Old helical-focus plastic cameras for
focussing mounts and synchronous motors from scrapped gaming machines
were like gold-dust!

Sawing 3/4" plywood into 24" circles with a fretsaw, that you couldn't
afford too many new blades for, has its moments.

Thanks for the memories. :-)

I ground my first mirror. I can remember the excitement in getting
the kit. I ordered a book on telescope making via the local library.
However, I couldn't wait and knew what to do anyway...

I ground away...

By the time the book arrived I'd made a fantastic start...

I learnt how to determine the focal length of the mirror I had just
created. This knowledge was applied and... ta da... I was the proud
owner of an 8.75" f/2.5 mirror!! Argghhh.

Despite what it said in the book (i.e not to go back and try to
correct it) I did and eventually ended up with a perfectly respectable
f/5 primary.

The rest was a bit of a struggle but when it did eventually come
together, the sense of pride and achievement was something else. I
even survived the wrath of my mum chastising me for boiling up pitch
on the kitchen stove!

--
Pete
http://www.digitalsky.org.uk

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 23:08:21 GMT, Tim Hicks
wrote:

Pete Lawrence wrote:
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:12:09 GMT, (Maurice Gavin)
wrote:
snip

The whole lot was mounted on the
rear axle of a Bedford van diff and all...

Ahh, that must be where I get my penchant for over engineering from (my
dad worked for Bedford trucks for many years).
At the risk of being both off topic and overly anal, you wouldn't know
what model van it was would you?

Not a clue Tim. The mount no longer exists but the tube still sits in
my garage.

--
Pete
http://www.digitalsky.org.uk

I'm one of the local guys working on the 15". I used to regularly use this
scope in the 70's and 80's. It worked very well then - excellent optics
(mirror refigured by the late, great George Hole). Looking forward to using
it again.

Ian Sharp.
http://www.astro-sharp.com


"Pete Lawrence" wrote in message
...
Patrick's 15" reflector is undergoing a bit of a restoration courtesy
of some local Selsey astronomers (it's obviously in the water!). As
well as an impressive optical heritage, the scope is a fascinating
piece of engineering.

Some background information on current activities can be seen he

http://www.markparrish.fast24.co.uk/index.html

--
Pete Lawrence
http://www.digitalsky.org.uk

Sir Squirrel Nutkin wrote:

Hi Peter / Maurice,
and the Summers were better and the year seemed to go much slower.
Ahhh, those were the days!

No, but seriously Peter, the mention of the van parts does bring back
memories of reading a few books from those halcyon days that Patrick
Moore wrote or edited suggesting the use of a car half-shaft. I have a
little 'Make Your Own Telescope' book somewhere by his late friend,
Reg Spry, that used, IIRC, something like that for his altazimuth
mounted Newtonian.

I still have mine from about 1982 - and the 6 inch Newt with
floorboards for the tube that went on top. The half-shaft went through
a hole in a piece of wood which couldn't be a sloppy fit or the whole
thing would rattle - but if it wasn't sloppy it was tight and if it
was tight it would only move in 30+ degree increments. So we oiled the
shaft which was wonderful for one session and the next night had set
like concrete.

The views were wonderful - they just wouldn't be the views you'd
chosen and I remember giving up trying to show Saturn to some visitors
when nudges (with and without hammer) failed to find it in 45 minutes.


Cheers

Martin

--
Martin Frey
http://www.hadastro.org.uk
N 51 02 E 0 47

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:07:14 +0000, Martin Frey
wrote:

Sir Squirrel Nutkin wrote:

Hi Peter / Maurice,
and the Summers were better and the year seemed to go much slower.
Ahhh, those were the days!

No, but seriously Peter, the mention of the van parts does bring back
memories of reading a few books from those halcyon days that Patrick
Moore wrote or edited suggesting the use of a car half-shaft. I have a
little 'Make Your Own Telescope' book somewhere by his late friend,
Reg Spry, that used, IIRC, something like that for his altazimuth
mounted Newtonian.


Martin wrote
I still have mine from about 1982 - and the 6 inch Newt with
floorboards for the tube that went on top. The half-shaft went through
a hole in a piece of wood which couldn't be a sloppy fit or the whole
thing would rattle - but if it wasn't sloppy it was tight and if it
was tight it would only move in 30+ degree increments. So we oiled the
shaft which was wonderful for one session and the next night had set
like concrete.

The views were wonderful - they just wouldn't be the views you'd
chosen and I remember giving up trying to show Saturn to some visitors
when nudges (with and without hammer) failed to find it in 45 minutes.


Cheers

Martin


Hi Martin,
with plenty of time between then and now, perhaps we can say with a
certain smile that they were 'character building' times! For all the
slagging off that SCT's and Chinese EQ mountings get from time to
time, they generally don't require a hammer to act as a GOTO system!
But then again, some might say that a (big) hammer should be a
standard part of the provided toolkit for an SCT. Oh oh!

The Newtonian that I built with the great help of my older brother,
brings back fond memories. It helped me to become familiar with
woodworking tools at home and at school, that stood me in good stead
when I later became an apprentice cabinet maker and to the stage where
I am now starting to offer hand built acoustic guitars. I did not use
a car half-shaft for the azimuth motion but an SKF (?) tapered roller
bearing with a pivot shaft / axle that went through the bearing from a
Vincent motorbike. The spider arrangement was made by my brother,
which, looking at it now as I still have most of the bits, was rather
good for a homebrew fabrication. I cut the 45 degree angle on a wooden
pole for the flat using one of the DIY wonders of the seventies; the
'Jointmaster'. The focusser was a Fullerscopes MK1. I remember ringing
them about three years ago and saying stridently "Is that
Fullerscopes"? It was a slightly perplexed response from the other
end; momentary silence, "Erm, well it's Broadhurst, Clarkson & Fuller
actually". Meoww!

Not being clued up about some technicalities as I should have been
back then (1977/8), I had ordered from David Hinds, along with the
mirror set, a 24.5 mm fitting orthoscopic eyepiece; Circle T brand, it
turned out. Of course this did not fit the MK1 1¼ inch rackmount
focusser. I then ordered an in-house made adapter from Fullerscopes
which had about as much finesse as a turd; they must have used a
f*%*ing Pole lathe and a tablespoon to turn that thing. But, being a
mere teenager, I merrily accepted it! And I still have it for
posterity if nothing else.

I can understand newcomers to the hobby, whether young or older, that
have or see no desire to mess about making telescope equipment when so
much is quite easily available new or nowadays especially,
second-hand. Remember when the main outlet for multitudes (!) of
second-hand telescopes was probably Exchange & Mart, alongside someone
who was usually selling WW11 Nazi binoculars?! As hinted at earlier,
a lot of the relatively inexpensive far Eastern stuff (mechanically)
probably works more adequately than the stuff we made back then. But
for those of us that went down that road, would we change things?
Perhaps now that that aspect of the hobby is mostly behind us, we
would say probably not. Now, where did I put those rose tinted
glasses? Oh, there they are. Ahhh, those were the days!

All the best,
Squirrel

Sir Squirrel Nutkin wrote:


.... The spider arrangement was made by my brother,
which, looking at it now as I still have most of the bits, was rather
good for a homebrew fabrication. I cut the 45 degree angle on a wooden
pole for the flat using one of the DIY wonders of the seventies; the
'Jointmaster'. The focusser was a Fullerscopes MK1. I remember ringing
them about three years ago and saying stridently "Is that
Fullerscopes"? It was a slightly perplexed response from the other
end; momentary silence, "Erm, well it's Broadhurst, Clarkson & Fuller
actually". Meoww!

Not being clued up about some technicalities as I should have been
back then (1977/8), I had ordered from David Hinds, along with the
mirror set, a 24.5 mm fitting orthoscopic eyepiece; Circle T brand, it
turned out.

I stuck to the book - the spider was made from metal strapping bands:
amazing to relate it worked beautifully. As did the Crayford focusser
- made of 3/4 inch copper plumbing pipe, belled out to be a goodish
fit for 0.96 inch eyepieces (which are now part of my finderscope.

The lasting lesson is that there is nothing magic about telescopes -
when broken they can be mended and they can be modified, remodified
and fiddled about with, occasionally actually improving as a result.

(OT And please never mention the jointmaster again. I thought I could
make picture frames with it - naive fool.)

Cheers

Martin

--
Martin Frey
http://www.hadastro.org.uk
N 51 02 E 0 47