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#92
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(Stuf4) wrote:
From Scott Kozel: (Stuf4) wrote: From Scott Kozel: I snipped the rest of your post because my comments above were sufficient to refute your argument. The space shuttle is not a "military aircraft" and it is not an "aircraft" at all during the cruise portion of its mission, so your cite the Hague Rules of Air Warfare is irrelevant. There are many who would say that these Rules of Air Warfare are irrelevant no matter what. Even for regular aircraft. Notice that Tokyo firebombing, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc came *well after* these rules were drafted. Strawman alert. It's also amusing that you don't mention that the Japanese were the ones who first conducted the firebombing of cities. Since the focus has been on NASA, I considered it to be more relevant to focus on other US gov't observance/lack of observance of the Hague rules (rather than the Japanese or anyone else). The fact that the Japanese were the ones who "lowered the bar" and first conducted the firebombing of cities in that war, is crucial to understanding why they later got the same treatment, and those cities that you mentioned were legitimate aerial targets by the standards of Hague, in that they were defensed cities that contained valid military targets. |
#93
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(Stuf4) wrote:
From Scott Kozel: The initial projected uses of them [GPS] were far more diverse than things related to nuclear warfare. Of course. Now try to build a case to fund those multi-billions of dollars so that the Army grunts won't get lost. Or any other application. Not for any -single- application, but justified for a diverse group of applications. Notice that it wasn't the Army who got funded for GPS R&D. Notice that is wasn't the FAA. Notice that it wasn't the USGS. Not the Coast Guard. Not EMS 'R' US. It was not a federal grant to Cadillac. Just two players: - The US Air Force, - The US Navy. All in all, the cost of putting up 24 GPS satellites over an 18-year period, was a very modest cost to the federal government. The government spent more money on Food Stamps in the same time period. If GPS had such a high military justification as you assert, then they wouldn't have taken 18 years to implement the system (even the first 10 "Block 1" satellites took 7-1/2 years to implement), they probably would have done the whole 24 in 3 years or less. You've mentioned Interstate highways several times now, and highway administration happens to have been my profession for 30 years, so let's set the record straight with respect to Interstate highways. The Interstate highway system was first approved in plan in 1943 (before nuclear weapons existed), and in actual construction beginning in 1956, and the federal funding mechanism was 90% federal funds from the Highway Trust Fund which was stocked with the receipts of direct road user tax revenues. The Interstate highway system never got funding from the U.S. Defense Department, and the prime impetus for beginning the system was to provide more capacity for the burgeoning civilian traffic in the nation, and the "and defense" in the system name "National System of Interstate and Defense Highways" was tacked on by politicians who wanted to add weight to getting the 1956 Highway Act passed; but the IHS always was intended primarily for handling civilian traffic. About 3,000 miles of state-built (with no federal funds) turnpikes predated the Interstate highway system, and they were built for the same basic reasons as the Interstates, to the same basic superhighway design standards, so the concept and need for such superhighways was well established before the Interstate highway system was started; in fact, much of that turnpike mileage was later incorporated into the Interstate highway system, route-wise. This aside on highways is instructive, because it highlights how misconceptions can arise about the origins of things. So what are you saying is a missconception? You yourself highlight how politicians added "and defense" to add weight to getting it passed. Politicians do all kinds of things, and that "weight" was merely of a verbal nature, for a very expensive project. Here is an excellent reference about the military aspects of interstate highways: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ility/ndhs.htm Its message fits in with your message, as I see it (save the misconception part). It uses the label "National Defense Highway System" several times, which is incorrect, there never has been a USA highway system by that name, and sources like that are among those who perpetuate military myths about the Interstate highway system. It was named the "National System of Interstate Highways" from 1943 until 1956 when the "and defense" was tacked on. Quotes -- "From the outset of construction of the Interstate System, the DOD has monitored its progress closely, ensuring direct military input to all phases of construction". SMK: DOD had relatively little input to the Interstate system, as the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) and its predecessor Bureau of Public Roads (BPR) was the federal agency that led the project. "The National Defense Highway System was responsible for building many of the first freeways". SMK: Wrong. The state highway departments administered the design, right-of-way acquisition and construction of every Interstate highway route, the FHWA provided design approvals and 90% of the funding, and the state highway departments owned the completed Interstate highways. "Its purpose was supposedly to allow for mass evacuation of cities in the event of a nuclear attack". SMK: Baloney. Highway and traffic engineers back then greatly discounted the ability of the freeways to provide timely mass evacuation of cities, because their traffic engineering knowledge knew of the impossibility of throwing 3 million or more vehicles onto a metropolitan area's freeway system and expecting anything but total gridlock. Here's a hint: one freeway lane has a maximum capacity of about 2,000 vehicles per hour. "The Interstate system was designed so that one mile in every five must be straight, usable as airstrips in times of war or other emergencies". SMK: That is a myth. See: "One Mile in Five: Debunking the Myth", by Richard F. Weingroff, FHWA historian http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/rw00b.htm "Was designed to move military equipment and personnel efficiently". SMK: As a purely secondary function. Here is a much better history of the Interstate highway system, by Richard F. Weingroff, chief FHWA historian -- Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956: Creating the Interstate System http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/summer96/p96su10.htm "The Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1944 primarily maintained the status quo. Its biggest departure was in Section 7, which authorized designation of a 65,000-km "National System of Interstate Highways," to be selected by joint action of the state highway departments: ... so located as to connect by routes, as direct as practicable, the principal metropolitan areas, cities, and industrial centers, to serve the national defense, and to connect at suitable border points with routes of continental importance in the Dominion of Canada and the Republic of Mexico". Still, GPS did not provide any new unique capability, and all 3 legs of the U.S. nuclear triad were quite accurate in their own right prior to GPS. ? I just stated that nuclear warhead delivery had unreliable accuracy. You are agreeing with that point. And then state that they were quite accurate. I said "quite accurate in their own right", as before GPS, U.S. ICBMs were accurate enough to hit point hardened targets, U.S. manned bombers were accurate enough to hit point hardened targets, and U.S. SLBMs were accurate enough to hit cities, ports and industrial centers (but not point targets). I agree that they *can be* quite accurate without GPS. But this takes a high degree of skill, and even then, the best navigators were known to unwittingly degrade their system accuracy (if not a hardware only problem). GPS is a no brainer. It pumps into the system many highly accurate fixes that keep the inertial part of the system *tight*. ...and that *is* a unique capability. It greatly increased the percentage of bombers that could be expected to reach their targets accurately. Same for other types of warheads. GPS is NOT "unique", conceptually it is a "better navigation system". It also was vulnerable during the Cold War, as the satellites couldn't be hidden, the Soviets knew exactly where they were, and their hunter-killer satellites could have quickly destroyed enough so as to heavily degrade or even neutralize the GPS system. -- Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com |
#94
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"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:
A secondary role of GPS satellites is nudet location. Comm does not make the list of *any* missions that the system serves. Its hardware and software functions as a communication system. Maybe your definition of "communication system" disagrees with the established one. Tell us how you think the GPS satellites are used to communicate among their users, and maybe we'll understand your claim better. Many of us probably won't *agree* with it, any more than we agree that GPS is a space-based offensive weapons system, but at least we might know where you're coming from. |
#95
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#96
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From Alan Anderson:
snip Many of us probably won't *agree* with it, any more than we agree that GPS is a space-based offensive weapons system, but at least we might know where you're coming from. Please note the distinction between a space-based offensive weapons system versus a space-based system that offers offensive weapons capability. ~ CT |
#97
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"Stuf4" wrote in message om... From Alan Anderson: snip Many of us probably won't *agree* with it, any more than we agree that GPS is a space-based offensive weapons system, but at least we might know where you're coming from. Please note the distinction between a space-based offensive weapons system versus a space-based system that offers offensive weapons capability. I would say "enhances" rather than "offers". |
#98
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tdadamemd-spamblock-@exc wrote:
From Alan Anderson: Many of us probably won't *agree* with it, any more than we agree that GPS is a space-based offensive weapons system, but at least we might know where you're coming from. Please note the distinction between a space-based offensive weapons system versus a space-based system that offers offensive weapons capability. Well, no, what you said is tantamount to what Alan said, almost the same thing. All the weapon systems that you mentioned, including the U.S. nuclear triad, already had massive amounts of "offensive weapons capability", before GPS was implemented, as the U.S. nuclear triad could have destroyed the Soviet Union several times over. Therefore, GPS did -not- "offer offensive weapons capability". -- Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com |
#99
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From Ami Silberman:
"Stuf4" wrote From Alan Anderson: snip Many of us probably won't *agree* with it, any more than we agree that GPS is a space-based offensive weapons system, but at least we might know where you're coming from. Please note the distinction between a space-based offensive weapons system versus a space-based system that offers offensive weapons capability. I would say "enhances" rather than "offers". Note here a case where GPS *creates* an offensive weapons capability: GPS bombs. Imagine during the biggest, most recent raid on Baghdad... All of a sudden turning off GPS the constellation. This would have had an effect reminiscent to that scene in a new Star Wars episode where in the heat of battle, all of the robot warriors instantly become useless. Despite the facts presented here, the general public will continue to see GPS as a benign technology. GPS was designed from the outset to create new capability for offensive strategic forces. Consider, for example, the planning of the route taken by a B-52. The Strategic Air Command had a requirement for how often navigational fixes needed to be available for updates of the nav system to prevent the INS position from wandering off. One consequence was that missions planned over the open ocean had to periodically be within radar fix distance of identifiable land points. GPS eliminates that constraint, creating new capability for mission planning. ~ CT |
#100
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From Scott Kozel:
tdadamemd-spamblock-@exc wrote: From Alan Anderson: Many of us probably won't *agree* with it, any more than we agree that GPS is a space-based offensive weapons system, but at least we might know where you're coming from. Please note the distinction between a space-based offensive weapons system versus a space-based system that offers offensive weapons capability. Well, no, what you said is tantamount to what Alan said, almost the same thing. All the weapon systems that you mentioned, including the U.S. nuclear triad, already had massive amounts of "offensive weapons capability", before GPS was implemented, as the U.S. nuclear triad could have destroyed the Soviet Union several times over. Therefore, GPS did -not- "offer offensive weapons capability". That conclusion does not follow. An illustration as to why, consider the case of satcom. The triad had the capability to destroy the USSR several times over prior to satcom (and after satcom). Yet satcom still offered new offensive strike capability in the command and control aspects. GPS offered new offensive strike capability in the navigational aspects. ~ CT |
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