Space Junk?

When a satellite no longer functions and is "abandoned in place", does
it become subject to salvage or does it remain the property of the
nation that launched it?

On 6/3/2010 7:40 PM, Obviousman wrote:
When a satellite no longer functions and is "abandoned in place", does
it become subject to salvage or does it remain the property of the
nation that launched it?

I don't know if that question has ever been resolved in court, although
as a general rule space law tends to mirror maritime law, with space
being considered in much the same way the open seas beyond national
boundaries are.
Military or government-owned space assets remain the property of the
country that launched them in perpetuity, which is why you would be in
trouble if you tried to do a salvage operation on the wreck of the HMS
Hood, but the wreck of the Bismark is possibly open to salvage, as the
Third Reich doesn't exist any more.
In much the same way, the government of Spain doesn't own the wrecked
treasure galleons that sank hundreds of years ago, even though they were
owned by the Spanish Empire, so you might be able to salvage some Soviet
era Moon landers on the grounds that they were Soviet, not Russian,
property.
Company-owned spacecraft should be open to salvage as long as the
company that owned them declares them officially derelict*, although you
might end up paying a portion of the salvage profits to the company that
insured them to help them recoup their losses when the spacecraft failed
and was abandoned if an insurance claim was filed by the company that
owned it.

* And there might well be an incentive for them to do that, as otherwise
it could be considered a taxable asset still owned by the company.

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:
On 6/3/2010 7:40 PM, Obviousman wrote:
When a satellite no longer functions and is "abandoned in place",
does it become subject to salvage or does it remain the property of
the nation that launched it?

I don't know if that question has ever been resolved in court,
although as a general rule space law tends to mirror maritime law,
with space being considered in much the same way the open seas beyond
national boundaries are.

Umm, I'm pretty sure this falls under the Outer Space Treaty and satelites
and the like remain property and responsibility of the launching nation.
For example if it crashes on your house, the launching nation is responsible
for it.

And I'm pretty sure you're wrong about ownership below. I believe there was
a recent case of Spain arguing ownership of a lost galleon.

Henry Spencer had some writeups on this.


Military or government-owned space assets remain the property of the
country that launched them in perpetuity, which is why you would be in
trouble if you tried to do a salvage operation on the wreck of the HMS
Hood, but the wreck of the Bismark is possibly open to salvage, as the
Third Reich doesn't exist any more.
In much the same way, the government of Spain doesn't own the wrecked
treasure galleons that sank hundreds of years ago, even though they
were owned by the Spanish Empire, so you might be able to salvage
some Soviet era Moon landers on the grounds that they were Soviet,
not Russian, property.
Company-owned spacecraft should be open to salvage as long as the
company that owned them declares them officially derelict*, although
you might end up paying a portion of the salvage profits to the
company that insured them to help them recoup their losses when the
spacecraft failed and was abandoned if an insurance claim was filed
by the company that owned it.

* And there might well be an incentive for them to do that, as
otherwise it could be considered a taxable asset still owned by the
company.
Pat

--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

On 6/4/2010 5:40 AM, Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:
Pat Flannery wrote:
On 6/3/2010 7:40 PM, Obviousman wrote:
When a satellite no longer functions and is "abandoned in place",
does it become subject to salvage or does it remain the property of
the nation that launched it?

I don't know if that question has ever been resolved in court,
although as a general rule space law tends to mirror maritime law,
with space being considered in much the same way the open seas beyond
national boundaries are.

Umm, I'm pretty sure this falls under the Outer Space Treaty and satelites
and the like remain property and responsibility of the launching nation.
For example if it crashes on your house, the launching nation is responsible
for it.

That would apply for a government-owned satellite, but what about a
satellite owned by a private company, like the Bigelow Aerospace Genesis
I inflatable spacecraft? That was launched on a Russian Dnepr booster,
but if it deorbits and kills someone on the ground, is it then Russia's
responsibility to pay a settlement to the aggrieved parties?


And I'm pretty sure you're wrong about ownership below. I believe there was
a recent case of Spain arguing ownership of a lost galleon.

That would be this:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/oceans/new...ectid=10457621
Note that one of the main arguments the Spanish are using is that as
long as the precise location of the wreck is unknown, it could well be
in Spanish waters, not the open sea.
Here's more on the mess:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan_Project
In the famous case of the galleon Atocha, Spain didn't try to lay claim
to the treasure, despite the fact that it was a government-owned vessel
- that is something new...you could also claim it was a military vessel
as it carried cannon and troops aboard to prevent it being captured by
ships of other world powers.
One shipwreck that has been pretty much picked clean is the Andrea
Doria: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Andrea_Doria

Pat

On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 03:40:57 GMT, Obviousman
wrote:

When a satellite no longer functions and is "abandoned in place", does
it become subject to salvage or does it remain the property of the
nation that launched it?

It hasn't really been put to the test, but the general consensus is
that if you can't recognize it enough to know who it belonged to, it
is still their's.

Brian

On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 03:39:58 -0800, Pat Flannery
wrote:

but the wreck of the Bismark is possibly open to salvage, as the
Third Reich doesn't exist any more.

FRG and GDR were still held responsible for the Reich's messes, i.e.,
war reparations, with the GDR having to chip in 25% to the FRG's 75%,
or something like that. So the Bismark is either still present-day
Germany's, or perhaps property of the Allies who took possession of
the Reich's arms after its surrender (at some point, I think, that
ownership reverted to Germany.)

Brian

On 06/04/2010 08:40 AM, Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:
Pat Flannery wrote:
On 6/3/2010 7:40 PM, Obviousman wrote:
When a satellite no longer functions and is "abandoned in place",
does it become subject to salvage or does it remain the property of
the nation that launched it?

I don't know if that question has ever been resolved in court,
although as a general rule space law tends to mirror maritime law,
with space being considered in much the same way the open seas beyond
national boundaries are.

Umm, I'm pretty sure this falls under the Outer Space Treaty and satelites
and the like remain property and responsibility of the launching nation.
For example if it crashes on your house, the launching nation is responsible
for it.

And I'm pretty sure you're wrong about ownership below. I believe there was
a recent case of Spain arguing ownership of a lost galleon.

I am definitely sure he is wrong. The text of the treaty reads:

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/oosa/en/SpaceLaw/gares/html/gares_21_2222.html

Article VIII

A State Party to the Treaty on whose registry an object launched
into outer space is carried shall retain jurisdiction and control over
such object, and over any personnel thereof, while in outer space or on
a celestial body. Ownership of objects launched into outer space,
including objects landed or constructed on a celestial body, and of
their component parts, is not affected by their presence in outer space
or on a celestial body or by their return to the Earth. Such objects or
component parts found beyond the limits of the State Party to the Treaty
on whose registry they are carried shall be returned to that State
Party, which shall, upon request, furnish identifying data prior to
their return.

Note that this is not restricted to "military or government-owned" space
asset but to all objects launched on the registry of a state party. Note
also that ownership of an object is not affected by its location.
Company-owned objects are not subject to salvage by a third party.

In short, maritime salvage law is wholly inapplicable to space. There is
ample space law that supercedes it.

Military or government-owned space assets remain the property of the
country that launched them in perpetuity, which is why you would be in
trouble if you tried to do a salvage operation on the wreck of the HMS
Hood, but the wreck of the Bismark is possibly open to salvage, as the
Third Reich doesn't exist any more.
In much the same way, the government of Spain doesn't own the wrecked
treasure galleons that sank hundreds of years ago, even though they
were owned by the Spanish Empire, so you might be able to salvage
some Soviet era Moon landers on the grounds that they were Soviet,
not Russian, property.
Company-owned spacecraft should be open to salvage as long as the
company that owned them declares them officially derelict*, although
you might end up paying a portion of the salvage profits to the
company that insured them to help them recoup their losses when the
spacecraft failed and was abandoned if an insurance claim was filed
by the company that owned it.

* And there might well be an incentive for them to do that, as
otherwise it could be considered a taxable asset still owned by the
company.
Pat

On 6/4/2010 6:06 PM, Jorge R. Frank wrote:
A State Party to the Treaty on whose registry an object launched into
outer space is carried shall retain jurisdiction and control over such
object, and over any personnel thereof, while in outer space or on a
celestial body.

Which again is fine for things like a NASA spacecraft, who indeed have a
state registry on them.
You go to the Moon to bring back parts of the Eagle's descent stage to
auction off at Christie's, you are going to be in deep trouble.
How about privately owned comsats though? They may go up on a US,
Chinese, Russian, or European booster, but does that mean that the
country whose booster was used owns what was launched on it?
For real fun, figure out the situation regarding a satellite launched
from a Russian submarine in international waters.

Pat

On Jun 4, 7:39*am, Pat Flannery wrote:


Military or government-owned space assets remain the property of the
country that launched them in perpetuity, which is why you would be in
trouble if you tried to do a salvage operation on the wreck of the HMS
Hood, but the wreck of the Bismark is possibly open to salvage, as the
Third Reich doesn't exist any more.

This is not Bob Ballard's understanding of salvage law- in his _The
Discovery of the Bismarck_ he claims that he went looking for the
Bismarck (pre 4+2=1) because it was not salvagable (he was and is
seriously ****ed off over the whole RMSTI junk, as best as I can tell
right up to the present day). Because it belonged to the German
government (he certainly got the permission of the BRD but he might
have gotten DDR approval as well) still, it was not possible to make
a salvage claim on it.

As I understand these things, successor states still carry the
responsibilities and obligations: in an exactly similar vein, after
the collapse of the USSR the new successor state Russia agreed that it
carried the responsibilities and obligations that the USSR had under
its old treaties, including the Outer Space Treaty.

In terms of international treaties, the IC views Adolf Hitler as
merely a government of Germany, not a unique new state: otherwise
Hitler's thugs would not have been bound by the treaties like the
Geneva Conventions that had been signed by the Imperial German state
or the Weimar Republic's signing of the Locarno Pact. And it was the
established opinion of the International Community, as demonstrated at
Nuremberg, that even the Nazi's were bound by those treaties (and when
they ignored them, they were liable to be hung).

So your interpretation of international law doesn't seem to make
sense.

Chris Manteuffel

In message
Chris wrote:

On Jun 4, 7:39*am, Pat Flannery wrote:


Military or government-owned space assets remain the property of the
country that launched them in perpetuity, which is why you would be in
trouble if you tried to do a salvage operation on the wreck of the HMS
Hood, but the wreck of the Bismark is possibly open to salvage, as the
Third Reich doesn't exist any more.

This is not Bob Ballard's understanding of salvage law- in his _The
Discovery of the Bismarck_ he claims that he went looking for the
Bismarck (pre 4+2=1) because it was not salvagable (he was and is
seriously ****ed off over the whole RMSTI junk, as best as I can tell
right up to the present day). Because it belonged to the German
government (he certainly got the permission of the BRD but he might
have gotten DDR approval as well) still, it was not possible to make
a salvage claim on it.

The Bismark will also be off limits as a war grave, as is HMS Hood.

Anthony