Storing gas at high temperature for rocket propellant.

This page gives the equation for the velocity of the exhaust gas of a
rocket:

Rocket engine nozzle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_...engine_nozzles

Since the Isp (specific impulse) of a propellant in units of seconds
is found by just dividing this by 9.8 m/s^2, the Isp is maximized by
making the exhaust speed as high as possible.
In the formula this can be achieved by making the exhaust be high
temperature. Usually in rockets this is done by using a high energy
chemical reaction, such as by burning H2 with O2. However, in the
formula you see the exhaust speed is also dependent in an inverse
fashion on the molecular mass of the exhaust products. For burning H2,
you get H2O with a molecular mass of 18. Can we get the exhaust gas
simply by just H2 with a molecular mass of 2?
One way this could be done would be simply by storing the hydrogen at
high temperature. Since rocket launches last only about 8 minutes the
tanks would only have to be insulated to maintain the temperature
inside for that length of time. If we stored the hydrogen at 3000 K,
the exhaust velocity in vacuum would be 9344 m/s, significantly better
than the 4550 m/s maximum exhaust speed of H2/LOX engines.
The problem would be storing the H2 at the high temperature and the
accompanying high pressure. Carbon-carbon composites are known to
return their high strength at high temperature. This book reference
gives the tensile strength as 700 MPa and states it actually
*increases* as temperature increases to the highest measured
temperature given, 2000 K:

http://books.google.com/books?id=d52...m=22&ct=result

However, the melting point of carbon (actually it sublimates at 1
bar pressure) is about 4000 K. Since the tensile strength is actually
increasing at 2000 K quite likely it continues to increase beyond this
and likely will remain high at least up to 3000 K. Carbon-carbon for
example is used for rocket nozzles for temperatures exceeding 3000 K:

Nondestructive Characterisation of Carbon/Carbon Brake Disks Using
Ultrasonics.
"C/C composite is consisted of a fiber based on carbon precursors
embedded in a carbon matrix and has such properties as low density,
high thermal conductivity and shock resistance, low thermal expansion
and high modulus. The C/C composite is applied for structures in high
temperature condition, such as a brake disk of aircraft, a nozzle of
rocket engine and etc., because C/C composite not only withstands high
temperature approaching 3000oC, but actually increases in strength."
http://www.ndt.net/apcndt2001/papers/1109/1109.htm

TW/SNTP - TECHNICAL CONCEPTS AND DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITIES.
"The high exhaust temperature requires either a transpiration or
regeneratively cooled nozzle, or a radiation-cooled carbon-carbon
nozzle. The carbon-carbon nozzle was used as the baseline, given its
low mass and simple design. Carbon-carbon nozzles have been tested in
solid-rocket motors at temperatures up to 4000 K. But development of
coatings (TaC, ZrC and NbC are candidates) will be required to avoid
hydrogen erosion."
http://www.fas.org/nuke/space/c08tw_3.htm

Carbon-carbon composites though are porous so it is uncertain if they
can be used for hydrogen storage at high temperature. An advantage of
the carbon-carbon though is that it could be used as a single high
strength, high temperature tank rather than numerous microspheres or
microtubes.
However, microspheres or microtubes might allow higher temperatures
and/or pressures. For example synthetic diamond of micron-scale size
can be made cheaply and may have higher tensile strength than natural
diamond:

Brief Communications
Nature 421, 599-600 (6 February 2003)
Materials: Ultrahard polycrystalline diamond from graphite.
"Polycrystalline diamonds are harder and tougher than single-crystal
diamonds and are therefore valuable for cutting and polishing other
hard materials, but naturally occurring polycrystalline diamond is
unusual and its production is slow. Here we describe the rapid
synthesis of pure sintered polycrystalline diamond by direct
conversion of graphite under static high pressure and temperature.
Surprisingly, this synthesized diamond is ultrahard and so could be
useful in the manufacture of scientific and industrial tools."
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...l/421599b.html

Since these synthetic diamonds are harder than natural diamond, they
very likely also are of higher tensile strength. This page says though
there has been varying measured amounts for natural diamonds tensile
strength one experiment, and some theoretical work,
suggests it could be as high as 60 GPa:

Material properties of diamond.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materia...ies_of_diamond

And this page says at pressures of 60 GPa, 600 kilobars, diamond can
remain solid up to 6,000 K:

Modeling the Phase Diagram of Carbon.
PRL 94, 145701 (2005) PHYSICAL REVIEW LETTERS 15 APRIL 2005
http://www.amolf.nl/publications/pdf/4312.pdf

At a temperature of 6,000 K, the H2 would have an exhaust velocity of
13,200 m/s. However, there would be the problem of keeping the diamond
at the high pressure required to remain solid. You could supply the
high pressure on the inside of the diamond microspheres by the H2 gas
but how to apply the high pressure to the outside?
You would also have the problem of releasing the hydrogen when
needed. One possibility might be to expose the diamond to oxygen.
Carbon will burn in oxygen at temperatures of 600 C and above. The
carbon tanks holding the H2 at high temperature will have to be kept
in inert gas or in vacuum to prevent contact with oxygen until the H2
is to be released.
Another possibility for the high temperature material for the
microspheres or microtubes to hold the H2 might be high temperature,
refractory, materials. One is tantalum hafnium carbide, which has a
melting point of about 4,500 K. These would also need to be made to
have high tensile strength. It is common that when materials are made
into 'whiskers' at the microscale they achieve GPa tensile strengths.
One method to make the whiskers is the vapor-liquid-solid method:

Growing Crystals with the VLS Process (Vapor - Liquid - Solid)
http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/crystals.htm

It is necessary to hold the hydrogen at high pressure since it will
be a high temperature gas. For instance at room temperature, say 300
K, and at 1 bar, H2 has a density about 1/10th kg/m^3. So at 3,000 K
the pressure would be 10 bar. However, at a density of only .1 kg/m^3,
the volume would be prohibitive for tens of thousands to hundreds of
thousands of kilos of H2. So to get a reasonable volume for the H2 we
will need much higher pressure. By multiplying the density by a factor
of 1,000 to 100 kg/m^3, somewhat better than that of liquid hydrogen,
the pressure would also be multiplied by 1,000 to 10,000 bar, 1 GPa,
with the temperature kept at 3,000 K.


Bob Clark

Dear Robert Clark:

On Aug 29, 12:13*pm, Robert Clark wrote:
....
*It is necessary to hold the hydrogen at high
pressure since it will be a high temperature gas.

And when you release the pressure, you lose the temperature, and hence
the thrust. "Half" of what you store is lost this way.

Chemical, fusion, or fission are *the* ways to store energy for later
release.

David A. Smith

"Robert Clark" wrote in message
...
This page gives the equation for the velocity of the exhaust gas of a
rocket:

Rocket engine nozzle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_...engine_nozzles

Since the Isp (specific impulse) of a propellant in units of seconds
is found by just dividing this by 9.8 m/s^2, the Isp is maximized by
making the exhaust speed as high as possible.
In the formula this can be achieved by making the exhaust be high
temperature. Usually in rockets this is done by using a high energy
chemical reaction, such as by burning H2 with O2. However, in the
formula you see the exhaust speed is also dependent in an inverse
fashion on the molecular mass of the exhaust products. For burning H2,
you get H2O with a molecular mass of 18. Can we get the exhaust gas
simply by just H2 with a molecular mass of 2?
One way this could be done would be simply by storing the hydrogen at
high temperature. Since rocket launches last only about 8 minutes the
tanks would only have to be insulated to maintain the temperature
inside for that length of time. If we stored the hydrogen at 3000 K,
the exhaust velocity in vacuum would be 9344 m/s, significantly better
than the 4550 m/s maximum exhaust speed of H2/LOX engines.
The problem would be storing the H2 at the high temperature and the
accompanying high pressure. Carbon-carbon composites are known to
return their high strength at high temperature. This book reference
gives the tensile strength as 700 MPa and states it actually
*increases* as temperature increases to the highest measured
temperature given, 2000 K:

http://books.google.com/books?id=d52...m=22&ct=result

However, the melting point of carbon (actually it sublimates at 1
bar pressure) is about 4000 K. Since the tensile strength is actually
increasing at 2000 K quite likely it continues to increase beyond this
and likely will remain high at least up to 3000 K. Carbon-carbon for
example is used for rocket nozzles for temperatures exceeding 3000 K:

Nondestructive Characterisation of Carbon/Carbon Brake Disks Using
Ultrasonics.
"C/C composite is consisted of a fiber based on carbon precursors
embedded in a carbon matrix and has such properties as low density,
high thermal conductivity and shock resistance, low thermal expansion
and high modulus. The C/C composite is applied for structures in high
temperature condition, such as a brake disk of aircraft, a nozzle of
rocket engine and etc., because C/C composite not only withstands high
temperature approaching 3000oC, but actually increases in strength."
http://www.ndt.net/apcndt2001/papers/1109/1109.htm

TW/SNTP - TECHNICAL CONCEPTS AND DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITIES.
"The high exhaust temperature requires either a transpiration or
regeneratively cooled nozzle, or a radiation-cooled carbon-carbon
nozzle. The carbon-carbon nozzle was used as the baseline, given its
low mass and simple design. Carbon-carbon nozzles have been tested in
solid-rocket motors at temperatures up to 4000 K. But development of
coatings (TaC, ZrC and NbC are candidates) will be required to avoid
hydrogen erosion."
http://www.fas.org/nuke/space/c08tw_3.htm

Carbon-carbon composites though are porous so it is uncertain if they
can be used for hydrogen storage at high temperature. An advantage of
the carbon-carbon though is that it could be used as a single high
strength, high temperature tank rather than numerous microspheres or
microtubes.
However, microspheres or microtubes might allow higher temperatures
and/or pressures. For example synthetic diamond of micron-scale size
can be made cheaply and may have higher tensile strength than natural
diamond:

Brief Communications
Nature 421, 599-600 (6 February 2003)
Materials: Ultrahard polycrystalline diamond from graphite.
"Polycrystalline diamonds are harder and tougher than single-crystal
diamonds and are therefore valuable for cutting and polishing other
hard materials, but naturally occurring polycrystalline diamond is
unusual and its production is slow. Here we describe the rapid
synthesis of pure sintered polycrystalline diamond by direct
conversion of graphite under static high pressure and temperature.
Surprisingly, this synthesized diamond is ultrahard and so could be
useful in the manufacture of scientific and industrial tools."
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...l/421599b.html

Since these synthetic diamonds are harder than natural diamond, they
very likely also are of higher tensile strength. This page says though
there has been varying measured amounts for natural diamonds tensile
strength one experiment, and some theoretical work,
suggests it could be as high as 60 GPa:

Material properties of diamond.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materia...ies_of_diamond

And this page says at pressures of 60 GPa, 600 kilobars, diamond can
remain solid up to 6,000 K:

Modeling the Phase Diagram of Carbon.
PRL 94, 145701 (2005) PHYSICAL REVIEW LETTERS 15 APRIL 2005
http://www.amolf.nl/publications/pdf/4312.pdf

At a temperature of 6,000 K, the H2 would have an exhaust velocity of
13,200 m/s. However, there would be the problem of keeping the diamond
at the high pressure required to remain solid. You could supply the
high pressure on the inside of the diamond microspheres by the H2 gas
but how to apply the high pressure to the outside?
You would also have the problem of releasing the hydrogen when
needed. One possibility might be to expose the diamond to oxygen.
Carbon will burn in oxygen at temperatures of 600 C and above. The
carbon tanks holding the H2 at high temperature will have to be kept
in inert gas or in vacuum to prevent contact with oxygen until the H2
is to be released.
Another possibility for the high temperature material for the
microspheres or microtubes to hold the H2 might be high temperature,
refractory, materials. One is tantalum hafnium carbide, which has a
melting point of about 4,500 K. These would also need to be made to
have high tensile strength. It is common that when materials are made
into 'whiskers' at the microscale they achieve GPa tensile strengths.
One method to make the whiskers is the vapor-liquid-solid method:

Growing Crystals with the VLS Process (Vapor - Liquid - Solid)
http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/crystals.htm

It is necessary to hold the hydrogen at high pressure since it will
be a high temperature gas. For instance at room temperature, say 300
K, and at 1 bar, H2 has a density about 1/10th kg/m^3. So at 3,000 K
the pressure would be 10 bar. However, at a density of only .1 kg/m^3,
the volume would be prohibitive for tens of thousands to hundreds of
thousands of kilos of H2. So to get a reasonable volume for the H2 we
will need much higher pressure. By multiplying the density by a factor
of 1,000 to 100 kg/m^3, somewhat better than that of liquid hydrogen,
the pressure would also be multiplied by 1,000 to 10,000 bar, 1 GPa,
with the temperature kept at 3,000 K.


Bob Clark

Oh dear... this sounds like rocket science.

"the exhaust speed is also dependent in an inverse
fashion on the molecular mass of the exhaust products.
For burning H2, you get H2O with a molecular mass of 18. "

Are you saying the newer synthetic diamond rockets
would worker better than the old-fashioned steam rockets?

Or if it's molecular weight you want, maybe throwing old car
batteries or even spent uranium from nuclear plants out the
exhaust pipe would work, although the EPA might object
because they want unleaded fuel?

But even if you could overcome that minor problem, you still
have to lift the mass to height h before you can throw it down
again, have you considered that?

What about an inverse cost fashion?

Don't give up your day job just yet.

On Aug 29, 3:13*pm, Robert Clark wrote:
This page gives the equation for the velocity of the exhaust gas of a
rocket:

Rocket engine nozzle.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_...Analysis_of_ga...

Since the Isp (specific impulse) of a propellant in units of seconds
is found by just dividing this by 9.8 m/s^2, the Isp is maximized by
making the exhaust speed as high as possible.
In the formula this can be achieved by making the exhaust be high
temperature. Usually in rockets this is done by using a high energy
chemical reaction, such as by burning H2 with O2. However, in the
formula you see the exhaust speed is also dependent in an inverse
fashion on the molecular mass of the exhaust products. For burning H2,
you get H2O with a molecular mass of 18. Can we get the exhaust gas
simply by just H2 with a molecular mass of 2?
One way this could be done would be simply by storing the hydrogen at
high temperature. Since rocket launches last only about 8 minutes the
tanks would only have to be insulated to maintain the temperature
inside for that length of time. If we stored the hydrogen at 3000 K,
the exhaust velocity in vacuum would be 9344 m/s, significantly better
than the 4550 m/s maximum exhaust speed of H2/LOX engines.
*The problem would be storing the H2 at the high temperature and the
accompanying high pressure. Carbon-carbon composites are known to
return their high strength at high temperature. This book reference
gives the tensile strength as 700 MPa and states it *actually
*increases* as temperature increases to the highest measured
temperature given, 2000 K:

http://books.google.com/books?id=d52...lpg=PA516&dq=c...

* However, the melting point of carbon (actually it sublimates at 1
bar pressure) *is about 4000 K. Since the tensile strength is actually
increasing at 2000 K quite likely it continues to increase beyond this
and likely will remain high at least up to 3000 K. Carbon-carbon for
example is used for rocket nozzles for temperatures exceeding 3000 K:

Nondestructive Characterisation of Carbon/Carbon Brake Disks Using
Ultrasonics.
"C/C composite is consisted of a fiber based on carbon precursors
embedded in a carbon matrix and has such properties as low density,
high thermal conductivity and shock resistance, low thermal expansion
and high modulus. The C/C composite is applied for structures in high
temperature condition, such as a brake disk of aircraft, a nozzle of
rocket engine and etc., because C/C composite not only withstands high
temperature approaching 3000oC, but actually increases in strength."http://www.ndt.net/apcndt2001/papers/1109/1109.htm

TW/SNTP - TECHNICAL CONCEPTS AND DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITIES.
"The high exhaust temperature requires either a transpiration or
regeneratively cooled nozzle, or a radiation-cooled carbon-carbon
nozzle. The carbon-carbon nozzle was used as the baseline, given its
low mass and simple design. Carbon-carbon nozzles have been tested in
solid-rocket motors at temperatures up to 4000 K. But development of
coatings (TaC, ZrC and NbC are candidates) will be required to avoid
hydrogen erosion."http://www.fas.org/nuke/space/c08tw_3.htm

*Carbon-carbon composites though are porous so it is uncertain if they
can be used for hydrogen storage at high temperature. An advantage of
the carbon-carbon though is that it could be used as a single high
strength, high temperature tank rather than numerous microspheres or
microtubes.
* However, microspheres or microtubes might allow higher temperatures
and/or pressures. For example synthetic diamond of micron-scale size
can be made cheaply and may have higher tensile strength than natural
diamond:

Brief Communications
Nature 421, 599-600 (6 February 2003)
Materials: Ultrahard polycrystalline diamond from graphite.
"Polycrystalline diamonds are harder and tougher than single-crystal
diamonds and are therefore valuable for cutting and polishing other
hard materials, but naturally occurring polycrystalline diamond is
unusual and its production is slow. Here we describe the rapid
synthesis of pure sintered polycrystalline diamond by direct
conversion of graphite under static high pressure and temperature.
Surprisingly, this synthesized diamond is ultrahard and so could be
useful in the manufacture of scientific and industrial tools."http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v421/n6923/full/421599b.html

*Since these synthetic diamonds are harder than natural diamond, they
very likely also are of higher tensile strength. This page says though
there has been varying measured amounts for natural diamonds tensile
strength one experiment, and some theoretical work,
suggests it could be as high as 60 GPa:

Material properties of diamond.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materia...ies_of_diamond

*And this page says at pressures of 60 GPa, 600 kilobars, diamond can
remain solid up to 6,000 K:

Modeling the Phase Diagram of Carbon.
PRL 94, 145701 (2005) PHYSICAL REVIEW LETTERS 15 APRIL 2005http://www.amolf.nl/publications/pdf/4312.pdf

*At a temperature of 6,000 K, the H2 would have an exhaust velocity of
13,200 m/s. However, there would be the problem of keeping the diamond
at the high pressure required to remain solid. You could supply the
high pressure on the inside of the diamond microspheres by the H2 gas
but how to apply the high pressure to the outside?
*You would also have the problem of releasing the hydrogen when
needed. One possibility might be to expose the diamond to oxygen.
Carbon will burn in oxygen at temperatures of 600 C and above. The
carbon tanks holding the H2 at high temperature will have to be kept
in inert gas or in vacuum to prevent contact with oxygen until the H2
is to be released.
*Another possibility for the high temperature material for the
microspheres or microtubes to hold the H2 might be high temperature,
refractory, materials. One is tantalum hafnium carbide, which has a
melting point of about 4,500 K. These would also need to be made to
have high tensile strength. It is common that when materials are made
into 'whiskers' at the microscale they achieve GPa tensile strengths.
One method to make the whiskers is the vapor-liquid-solid method:

Growing Crystals with the VLS Process (Vapor - Liquid - Solid)http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/crystals.htm

*It is necessary to hold the hydrogen at high pressure since it will
be a high temperature gas. For instance at room temperature, say 300
K, and at 1 bar, H2 has a density about 1/10th kg/m^3. So at 3,000 K
the pressure would be 10 bar. However, at a density of only .1 kg/m^3,
the volume would be prohibitive for tens of thousands to hundreds of
thousands of kilos of H2. So to get a reasonable volume for the H2 we
will need much higher pressure. By multiplying the density by a factor
of 1,000 to 100 kg/m^3, somewhat better than that of liquid hydrogen,
the pressure would also be multiplied by 1,000 to 10,000 bar, 1 GPa,
with the temperature kept at 3,000 K.

* * Bob Clark

The book reference:

http://books.google.com/books?id=d52...m=22&ct=result

also shows that carbon fiber initially dips in tensile strength at
high temperatures but then starts rising again as you approach 2000K
so they may as well retain their strength at 3000K. So it may work to
use them as microtubes since their tensile strength can be 10 times
greater than carbon-carbon composites: 7 GPa, 1,000,000 psi. However,
it still needs to be determined if they can retain this strength
radially as hollow tubes.
The highest known strength would be obtained by carbon nanotubes or
fullerenes. Experiments have shown they can have tensile strength as
high as 150 GPa. A problem with using them however is the hydrogen
molecule is so small that in experiments with nanotubes at high
pressures some of the hydrogen leaks out between the carbon atoms of
the nanotubes. Perhaps this can be solved with multiwalled nanotubes
or fullerene "onions" by having the layers be arranged so that a
carbon atom of one layer blocks the opening in another layer.

Bob Clark

Dear Robert Clark:

"Robert Clark" wrote in message
...
....
The highest known strength would be obtained by carbon
nanotubes or fullerenes. Experiments have shown they
can have tensile strength as high as 150 GPa. A problem
with using them however is the hydrogen molecule is so
small that in experiments with nanotubes at high
pressures some of the hydrogen leaks out between the
carbon atoms of the nanotubes. Perhaps this can be
solved with multiwalled nanotubes or fullerene "onions" by
having the layers be arranged so that a carbon atom of
one layer blocks the opening in another layer.

High temperature hydrogen will attack the carbon matrix, and you
will have a massive failure.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1091643

David A. Smith

On Aug 30, 12:44 pm, "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)"
wrote:
Dear Robert Clark:

"Robert Clark" wrote in message

...
...

The highest known strength would be obtained by carbon
nanotubes or fullerenes. Experiments have shown they
can have tensile strength as high as 150 GPa. A problem
with using them however is the hydrogen molecule is so
small that in experiments with nanotubes at high
pressures some of the hydrogen leaks out between the
carbon atoms of the nanotubes. Perhaps this can be
solved with multiwalled nanotubes or fullerene "onions" by
having the layers be arranged so that a carbon atom of
one layer blocks the opening in another layer.

High temperature hydrogen will attack the carbon matrix, and you
will have a massive failure.http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1091643

David A. Smith

An interesting article. Specifically it is about H3:

Trihydrogen cation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trihydrogen_cation

This is apparently highly reactive. Anyone know the energy release
when reacted with oxygen?
H3 appears when hydrogen is ionized. Perhaps it won't be too
prevalent at the lower end of the temperatures I mentioned, say at
3000 K.
We might be able to coat the carbon tanks with highly refractory
materials such as tantalum hafnium carbide which has a melting point
of 4500 K.

Bob Clark

On Aug 30, 6:25 am, Robert Clark wrote:
On Aug 29, 3:13 pm, Robert Clark wrote:



This page gives the equation for the velocity of the exhaust gas of a
rocket:

Rocket engine nozzle.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_...Analysis_of_ga...

Since the Isp (specific impulse) of a propellant in units of seconds
is found by just dividing this by 9.8 m/s^2, the Isp is maximized by
making the exhaust speed as high as possible.
In the formula this can be achieved by making the exhaust be high
temperature. Usually in rockets this is done by using a high energy
chemical reaction, such as by burning H2 with O2. However, in the
formula you see the exhaust speed is also dependent in an inverse
fashion on the molecular mass of the exhaust products. For burning H2,
you get H2O with a molecular mass of 18. Can we get the exhaust gas
simply by just H2 with a molecular mass of 2?
One way this could be done would be simply by storing the hydrogen at
high temperature. Since rocket launches last only about 8 minutes the
tanks would only have to be insulated to maintain the temperature
inside for that length of time. If we stored the hydrogen at 3000 K,
the exhaust velocity in vacuum would be 9344 m/s, significantly better
than the 4550 m/s maximum exhaust speed of H2/LOX engines.
The problem would be storing the H2 at the high temperature and the
accompanying high pressure. Carbon-carbon composites are known to
return their high strength at high temperature. This book reference
gives the tensile strength as 700 MPa and states it actually
*increases* as temperature increases to the highest measured
temperature given, 2000 K:

http://books.google.com/books?id=d52...lpg=PA516&dq=c...

However, the melting point of carbon (actually it sublimates at 1
bar pressure) is about 4000 K. Since the tensile strength is actually
increasing at 2000 K quite likely it continues to increase beyond this
and likely will remain high at least up to 3000 K. Carbon-carbon for
example is used for rocket nozzles for temperatures exceeding 3000 K:

Nondestructive Characterisation of Carbon/Carbon Brake Disks Using
Ultrasonics.
"C/C composite is consisted of a fiber based on carbon precursors
embedded in a carbon matrix and has such properties as low density,
high thermal conductivity and shock resistance, low thermal expansion
and high modulus. The C/C composite is applied for structures in high
temperature condition, such as a brake disk of aircraft, a nozzle of
rocket engine and etc., because C/C composite not only withstands high
temperature approaching 3000oC, but actually increases in strength."http://www.ndt.net/apcndt2001/papers/1109/1109.htm

TW/SNTP - TECHNICAL CONCEPTS AND DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITIES.
"The high exhaust temperature requires either a transpiration or
regeneratively cooled nozzle, or a radiation-cooled carbon-carbon
nozzle. The carbon-carbon nozzle was used as the baseline, given its
low mass and simple design. Carbon-carbon nozzles have been tested in
solid-rocket motors at temperatures up to 4000 K. But development of
coatings (TaC, ZrC and NbC are candidates) will be required to avoid
hydrogen erosion."http://www.fas.org/nuke/space/c08tw_3.htm

Carbon-carbon composites though are porous so it is uncertain if they
can be used for hydrogen storage at high temperature. An advantage of
the carbon-carbon though is that it could be used as a single high
strength, high temperature tank rather than numerous microspheres or
microtubes.
However, microspheres or microtubes might allow higher temperatures
and/or pressures. For example synthetic diamond of micron-scale size
can be made cheaply and may have higher tensile strength than natural
diamond:

Brief Communications
Nature 421, 599-600 (6 February 2003)
Materials: Ultrahard polycrystalline diamond from graphite.
"Polycrystalline diamonds are harder and tougher than single-crystal
diamonds and are therefore valuable for cutting and polishing other
hard materials, but naturally occurring polycrystalline diamond is
unusual and its production is slow. Here we describe the rapid
synthesis of pure sintered polycrystalline diamond by direct
conversion of graphite under static high pressure and temperature.
Surprisingly, this synthesized diamond is ultrahard and so could be
useful in the manufacture of scientific and industrial tools."http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v421/n6923/full/421599b.html

Since these synthetic diamonds are harder than natural diamond, they
very likely also are of higher tensile strength. This page says though
there has been varying measured amounts for natural diamonds tensile
strength one experiment, and some theoretical work,
suggests it could be as high as 60 GPa:

Material properties of diamond.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materia...ies_of_diamond

And this page says at pressures of 60 GPa, 600 kilobars, diamond can
remain solid up to 6,000 K:

Modeling the Phase Diagram of Carbon.
PRL 94, 145701 (2005) PHYSICAL REVIEW LETTERS 15 APRIL 2005http://www.amolf.nl/publications/pdf/4312.pdf

At a temperature of 6,000 K, the H2 would have an exhaust velocity of
13,200 m/s. However, there would be the problem of keeping the diamond
at the high pressure required to remain solid. You could supply the
high pressure on the inside of the diamond microspheres by the H2 gas
but how to apply the high pressure to the outside?
You would also have the problem of releasing the hydrogen when
needed. One possibility might be to expose the diamond to oxygen.
Carbon will burn in oxygen at temperatures of 600 C and above. The
carbon tanks holding the H2 at high temperature will have to be kept
in inert gas or in vacuum to prevent contact with oxygen until the H2
is to be released.
Another possibility for the high temperature material for the
microspheres or microtubes to hold the H2 might be high temperature,
refractory, materials. One is tantalum hafnium carbide, which has a
melting point of about 4,500 K. These would also need to be made to
have high tensile strength. It is common that when materials are made
into 'whiskers' at the microscale they achieve GPa tensile strengths.
One method to make the whiskers is the vapor-liquid-solid method:

Growing Crystals with the VLS Process (Vapor - Liquid - Solid)http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/crystals.htm

It is necessary to hold the hydrogen at high pressure since it will
be a high temperature gas. For instance at room temperature, say 300
K, and at 1 bar, H2 has a density about 1/10th kg/m^3. So at 3,000 K
the pressure would be 10 bar. However, at a density of only .1 kg/m^3,
the volume would be prohibitive for tens of thousands to hundreds of
thousands of kilos of H2. So to get a reasonable volume for the H2 we
will need much higher pressure. By multiplying the density by a factor
of 1,000 to 100 kg/m^3, somewhat better than that of liquid hydrogen,
the pressure would also be multiplied by 1,000 to 10,000 bar, 1 GPa,
with the temperature kept at 3,000 K.

Bob Clark

The book reference:

http://books.google.com/books?id=d52...lpg=PA516&dq=c...

also shows that carbon fiber initially dips in tensile strength at
high temperatures but then starts rising again as you approach 2000K
so they may as well retain their strength at 3000K. So it may work to
use them as microtubes since their tensile strength can be 10 times
greater than carbon-carbon composites: 7 GPa, 1,000,000 psi. However,
it still needs to be determined if they can retain this strength
radially as hollow tubes.
The highest known strength would be obtained by carbon nanotubes or
fullerenes. Experiments have shown they can have tensile strength as
high as 150 GPa. A problem with using them however is the hydrogen
molecule is so small that in experiments with nanotubes at high
pressures some of the hydrogen leaks out between the carbon atoms of
the nanotubes. Perhaps this can be solved with multiwalled nanotubes
or fullerene "onions" by having the layers be arranged so that a
carbon atom of one layer blocks the opening in another layer.

Bob Clark

There's no problem in using commercial basalt composites (plasma
metallic coated if need be) for safe containment of h2o2, much less
that of the c12h26 or whatever else gets the most thrust energy/kg out
of the h2o2.

~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

On Aug 30, 10:52*am, BradGuth wrote:
On Aug 30, 6:25 am, Robert Clark wrote:



On Aug 29, 3:13 pm, Robert Clark wrote:

This page gives the equation for the velocity of the exhaust gas of a
rocket:

Rocket engine nozzle.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_...Analysis_of_ga...

Since the Isp (specific impulse) of a propellant in units of seconds
is found by just dividing this by 9.8 m/s^2, the Isp is maximized by
making the exhaust speed as high as possible.
In the formula this can be achieved by making the exhaust be high
temperature. Usually in rockets this is done by using a high energy
chemical reaction, such as by burning H2 with O2. However, in the
formula you see the exhaust speed is also dependent in an inverse
fashion on the molecular mass of the exhaust products. For burning H2,
you get H2O with a molecular mass of 18. Can we get the exhaust gas
simply by just H2 with a molecular mass of 2?
One way this could be done would be simply by storing the hydrogen at
high temperature. Since rocket launches last only about 8 minutes the
tanks would only have to be insulated to maintain the temperature
inside for that length of time. If we stored the hydrogen at 3000 K,
the exhaust velocity in vacuum would be 9344 m/s, significantly better
than the 4550 m/s maximum exhaust speed of H2/LOX engines.
*The problem would be storing the H2 at the high temperature and the
accompanying high pressure. Carbon-carbon composites are known to
return their high strength at high temperature. This book reference
gives the tensile strength as 700 MPa and states it *actually
*increases* as temperature increases to the highest measured
temperature given, 2000 K:

http://books.google.com/books?id=d52...lpg=PA516&dq=c...

* However, the melting point of carbon (actually it sublimates at 1
bar pressure) *is about 4000 K. Since the tensile strength is actually
increasing at 2000 K quite likely it continues to increase beyond this
and likely will remain high at least up to 3000 K. Carbon-carbon for
example is used for rocket nozzles for temperatures exceeding 3000 K:

Nondestructive Characterisation of Carbon/Carbon Brake Disks Using
Ultrasonics.
"C/C composite is consisted of a fiber based on carbon precursors
embedded in a carbon matrix and has such properties as low density,
high thermal conductivity and shock resistance, low thermal expansion
and high modulus. The C/C composite is applied for structures in high
temperature condition, such as a brake disk of aircraft, a nozzle of
rocket engine and etc., because C/C composite not only withstands high
temperature approaching 3000oC, but actually increases in strength."http://www.ndt.net/apcndt2001/papers/1109/1109.htm

TW/SNTP - TECHNICAL CONCEPTS AND DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITIES.
"The high exhaust temperature requires either a transpiration or
regeneratively cooled nozzle, or a radiation-cooled carbon-carbon
nozzle. The carbon-carbon nozzle was used as the baseline, given its
low mass and simple design. Carbon-carbon nozzles have been tested in
solid-rocket motors at temperatures up to 4000 K. But development of
coatings (TaC, ZrC and NbC are candidates) will be required to avoid
hydrogen erosion."http://www.fas.org/nuke/space/c08tw_3.htm

*Carbon-carbon composites though are porous so it is uncertain if they
can be used for hydrogen storage at high temperature. An advantage of
the carbon-carbon though is that it could be used as a single high
strength, high temperature tank rather than numerous microspheres or
microtubes.
* However, microspheres or microtubes might allow higher temperatures
and/or pressures. For example synthetic diamond of micron-scale size
can be made cheaply and may have higher tensile strength than natural
diamond:

Brief Communications
Nature 421, 599-600 (6 February 2003)
Materials: Ultrahard polycrystalline diamond from graphite.
"Polycrystalline diamonds are harder and tougher than single-crystal
diamonds and are therefore valuable for cutting and polishing other
hard materials, but naturally occurring polycrystalline diamond is
unusual and its production is slow. Here we describe the rapid
synthesis of pure sintered polycrystalline diamond by direct
conversion of graphite under static high pressure and temperature.
Surprisingly, this synthesized diamond is ultrahard and so could be
useful in the manufacture of scientific and industrial tools."http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v421/n6923/full/421599b.html

*Since these synthetic diamonds are harder than natural diamond, they
very likely also are of higher tensile strength. This page says though
there has been varying measured amounts for natural diamonds tensile
strength one experiment, and some theoretical work,
suggests it could be as high as 60 GPa:

Material properties of diamond.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materia...ies_of_diamond

*And this page says at pressures of 60 GPa, 600 kilobars, diamond can
remain solid up to 6,000 K:

Modeling the Phase Diagram of Carbon.
PRL 94, 145701 (2005) PHYSICAL REVIEW LETTERS 15 APRIL 2005http://www..amolf.nl/publications/pdf/4312.pdf

*At a temperature of 6,000 K, the H2 would have an exhaust velocity of
13,200 m/s. However, there would be the problem of keeping the diamond
at the high pressure required to remain solid. You could supply the
high pressure on the inside of the diamond microspheres by the H2 gas
but how to apply the high pressure to the outside?
*You would also have the problem of releasing the hydrogen when
needed. One possibility might be to expose the diamond to oxygen.
Carbon will burn in oxygen at temperatures of 600 C and above. The
carbon tanks holding the H2 at high temperature will have to be kept
in inert gas or in vacuum to prevent contact with oxygen until the H2
is to be released.
*Another possibility for the high temperature material for the
microspheres or microtubes to hold the H2 might be high temperature,
refractory, materials. One is tantalum hafnium carbide, which has a
melting point of about 4,500 K. These would also need to be made to
have high tensile strength. It is common that when materials are made
into 'whiskers' at the microscale they achieve GPa tensile strengths.
One method to make the whiskers is the vapor-liquid-solid method:

Growing Crystals with the VLS Process (Vapor - Liquid - Solid)http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/crystals.htm

*It is necessary to hold the hydrogen at high pressure since it will
be a high temperature gas. For instance at room temperature, say 300
K, and at 1 bar, H2 has a density about 1/10th kg/m^3. So at 3,000 K
the pressure would be 10 bar. However, at a density of only .1 kg/m^3,
the volume would be prohibitive for tens of thousands to hundreds of
thousands of kilos of H2. So to get a reasonable volume for the H2 we
will need much higher pressure. By multiplying the density by a factor
of 1,000 to 100 kg/m^3, somewhat better than that of liquid hydrogen,
the pressure would also be multiplied by 1,000 to 10,000 bar, 1 GPa,
with the temperature kept at 3,000 K.

* * Bob Clark

* The book reference:

http://books.google.com/books?id=d52...lpg=PA516&dq=c...

*also shows that carbon fiber initially dips in tensile strength at
high temperatures but then starts rising again as you approach 2000K
so they may as well retain their strength at 3000K. So it may work to
use them as microtubes since their tensile strength can be 10 times
greater than carbon-carbon composites: 7 GPa, *1,000,000 psi. However,
it still needs to be determined if they can retain this strength
radially as hollow tubes.
*The highest known strength would be obtained by carbon nanotubes or
fullerenes. Experiments have shown they can have tensile strength as
high as 150 GPa. A problem with using them however is the hydrogen
molecule is so small that in experiments with nanotubes at high
pressures some of the hydrogen leaks out between the carbon atoms of
the nanotubes. Perhaps this can be solved with multiwalled nanotubes
or fullerene "onions" by having the layers be arranged so that a
carbon atom of one layer blocks the opening in another layer.

* * Bob Clark

There's no problem in using commercial basalt composites (plasma
metallic coated if need be) for safe containment of h2o2, much less
that of the c12h26 or whatever else gets the most thrust energy/kg out
of the h2o2.

* ~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

Hydrogen peroxide as fuel is stupid. Enormously stupid.

Its' like mixing liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen together in one
tank stupid.

On Aug 30, 1:19 pm, Eric Gisse wrote:
On Aug 30, 10:52 am, BradGuth wrote:



On Aug 30, 6:25 am, Robert Clark wrote:

On Aug 29, 3:13 pm, Robert Clark wrote:

This page gives the equation for the velocity of the exhaust gas of a
rocket:

Rocket engine nozzle.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_...Analysis_of_ga...

Since the Isp (specific impulse) of a propellant in units of seconds
is found by just dividing this by 9.8 m/s^2, the Isp is maximized by
making the exhaust speed as high as possible.
In the formula this can be achieved by making the exhaust be high
temperature. Usually in rockets this is done by using a high energy
chemical reaction, such as by burning H2 with O2. However, in the
formula you see the exhaust speed is also dependent in an inverse
fashion on the molecular mass of the exhaust products. For burning H2,
you get H2O with a molecular mass of 18. Can we get the exhaust gas
simply by just H2 with a molecular mass of 2?
One way this could be done would be simply by storing the hydrogen at
high temperature. Since rocket launches last only about 8 minutes the
tanks would only have to be insulated to maintain the temperature
inside for that length of time. If we stored the hydrogen at 3000 K,
the exhaust velocity in vacuum would be 9344 m/s, significantly better
than the 4550 m/s maximum exhaust speed of H2/LOX engines.
The problem would be storing the H2 at the high temperature and the
accompanying high pressure. Carbon-carbon composites are known to
return their high strength at high temperature. This book reference
gives the tensile strength as 700 MPa and states it actually
*increases* as temperature increases to the highest measured
temperature given, 2000 K:

http://books.google.com/books?id=d52...lpg=PA516&dq=c...

However, the melting point of carbon (actually it sublimates at 1
bar pressure) is about 4000 K. Since the tensile strength is actually
increasing at 2000 K quite likely it continues to increase beyond this
and likely will remain high at least up to 3000 K. Carbon-carbon for
example is used for rocket nozzles for temperatures exceeding 3000 K:

Nondestructive Characterisation of Carbon/Carbon Brake Disks Using
Ultrasonics.
"C/C composite is consisted of a fiber based on carbon precursors
embedded in a carbon matrix and has such properties as low density,
high thermal conductivity and shock resistance, low thermal expansion
and high modulus. The C/C composite is applied for structures in high
temperature condition, such as a brake disk of aircraft, a nozzle of
rocket engine and etc., because C/C composite not only withstands high
temperature approaching 3000oC, but actually increases in strength."http://www.ndt.net/apcndt2001/papers/1109/1109.htm

TW/SNTP - TECHNICAL CONCEPTS AND DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITIES.
"The high exhaust temperature requires either a transpiration or
regeneratively cooled nozzle, or a radiation-cooled carbon-carbon
nozzle. The carbon-carbon nozzle was used as the baseline, given its
low mass and simple design. Carbon-carbon nozzles have been tested in
solid-rocket motors at temperatures up to 4000 K. But development of
coatings (TaC, ZrC and NbC are candidates) will be required to avoid
hydrogen erosion."http://www.fas.org/nuke/space/c08tw_3.htm

Carbon-carbon composites though are porous so it is uncertain if they
can be used for hydrogen storage at high temperature. An advantage of
the carbon-carbon though is that it could be used as a single high
strength, high temperature tank rather than numerous microspheres or
microtubes.
However, microspheres or microtubes might allow higher temperatures
and/or pressures. For example synthetic diamond of micron-scale size
can be made cheaply and may have higher tensile strength than natural
diamond:

Brief Communications
Nature 421, 599-600 (6 February 2003)
Materials: Ultrahard polycrystalline diamond from graphite.
"Polycrystalline diamonds are harder and tougher than single-crystal
diamonds and are therefore valuable for cutting and polishing other
hard materials, but naturally occurring polycrystalline diamond is
unusual and its production is slow. Here we describe the rapid
synthesis of pure sintered polycrystalline diamond by direct
conversion of graphite under static high pressure and temperature.
Surprisingly, this synthesized diamond is ultrahard and so could be
useful in the manufacture of scientific and industrial tools."http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v421/n6923/full/421599b.html

Since these synthetic diamonds are harder than natural diamond, they
very likely also are of higher tensile strength. This page says though
there has been varying measured amounts for natural diamonds tensile
strength one experiment, and some theoretical work,
suggests it could be as high as 60 GPa:

Material properties of diamond.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materia...ies_of_diamond

And this page says at pressures of 60 GPa, 600 kilobars, diamond can
remain solid up to 6,000 K:

Modeling the Phase Diagram of Carbon.
PRL 94, 145701 (2005) PHYSICAL REVIEW LETTERS 15 APRIL 2005http://www.amolf.nl/publications/pdf/4312.pdf

At a temperature of 6,000 K, the H2 would have an exhaust velocity of
13,200 m/s. However, there would be the problem of keeping the diamond
at the high pressure required to remain solid. You could supply the
high pressure on the inside of the diamond microspheres by the H2 gas
but how to apply the high pressure to the outside?
You would also have the problem of releasing the hydrogen when
needed. One possibility might be to expose the diamond to oxygen.
Carbon will burn in oxygen at temperatures of 600 C and above. The
carbon tanks holding the H2 at high temperature will have to be kept
in inert gas or in vacuum to prevent contact with oxygen until the H2
is to be released.
Another possibility for the high temperature material for the
microspheres or microtubes to hold the H2 might be high temperature,
refractory, materials. One is tantalum hafnium carbide, which has a
melting point of about 4,500 K. These would also need to be made to
have high tensile strength. It is common that when materials are made
into 'whiskers' at the microscale they achieve GPa tensile strengths.
One method to make the whiskers is the vapor-liquid-solid method:

Growing Crystals with the VLS Process (Vapor - Liquid - Solid)http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/crystals.htm

It is necessary to hold the hydrogen at high pressure since it will
be a high temperature gas. For instance at room temperature, say 300
K, and at 1 bar, H2 has a density about 1/10th kg/m^3. So at 3,000 K
the pressure would be 10 bar. However, at a density of only .1 kg/m^3,
the volume would be prohibitive for tens of thousands to hundreds of
thousands of kilos of H2. So to get a reasonable volume for the H2 we
will need much higher pressure. By multiplying the density by a factor
of 1,000 to 100 kg/m^3, somewhat better than that of liquid hydrogen,
the pressure would also be multiplied by 1,000 to 10,000 bar, 1 GPa,
with the temperature kept at 3,000 K.

Bob Clark

The book reference:

http://books.google.com/books?id=d52...lpg=PA516&dq=c...

also shows that carbon fiber initially dips in tensile strength at
high temperatures but then starts rising again as you approach 2000K
so they may as well retain their strength at 3000K. So it may work to
use them as microtubes since their tensile strength can be 10 times
greater than carbon-carbon composites: 7 GPa, 1,000,000 psi. However,
it still needs to be determined if they can retain this strength
radially as hollow tubes.
The highest known strength would be obtained by carbon nanotubes or
fullerenes. Experiments have shown they can have tensile strength as
high as 150 GPa. A problem with using them however is the hydrogen
molecule is so small that in experiments with nanotubes at high
pressures some of the hydrogen leaks out between the carbon atoms of
the nanotubes. Perhaps this can be solved with multiwalled nanotubes
or fullerene "onions" by having the layers be arranged so that a
carbon atom of one layer blocks the opening in another layer.

Bob Clark

There's no problem in using commercial basalt composites (plasma
metallic coated if need be) for safe containment of h2o2, much less
that of the c12h26 or whatever else gets the most thrust energy/kg out
of the h2o2.

~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

Hydrogen peroxide as fuel is stupid. Enormously stupid.

Its' like mixing liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen together in one
tank stupid.

Your profound but typically foolish nayism is noted.

The combined fuel and bulk of h2o2 oxidizer as fly-by-rocket energy
density that isn't cryogenic or having to be pressurized is actually
offering a fairly good Isp, especially once taking the all inclusive
GLOW inert mass into account.

~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

Brad,

We've gone over this before.

The only person who is naysaying around here is YOU!

You don't want to hear, or remember things that run counter to what
you want to be true - regardless of their truth or falsity. lol. Why
is that Brad? Because of the way those beliefs allow you to FEEL
about yourself. haha.. GIVE IT UP ASSHOLE! lol.

Check it out dude; - these are FACTS - not fiction - so, i realize you
have a little difficulty dealing with them;

As a monopropellant rocket at 98% concentration specific impulse is
160 seconds. (the SSME has a specific impulse of 455 seconds)

As a fuel it contains 2.7 MJ/kg (gasoline contains 46.9 MJ/kg)

As a cost-effective fuel it costs $40 per kg

http://www.h2o2-4u.com/price.html

gasoline costs $1.20 per kg

The high costs are the result of the difficulty of manufacturing the
stuff and its instability.

The high costs have to do with the method by which hydrogen peroxide
is manufactured. About 500,000 tons of hydrogen peroxide is produced
in the USA each year, primarily as "green" bleaching agents such as
perborates and percarbonates for the paper and textile industries.
Other significant uses include wastewater treatment and
hydrometallurgical processes (for example, the extraction of uranium
by oxidation).

The most widely used processing method is the AO (Autoxidation)
process. A reaction mixture is fed to the first reactor which contains
a carrier solvent and anthraquinones (usually 2-ethyl or 2-pentyl-
anthraquinone). A stream containing the hydrocarbon-based carrier
solvent is usually referred to as the "work solution". This first
reactor in the series of two is known as the hydrogenator as hydgrogen
is also fed to this reactor and a hydrogenation reaction occurs over a
Ni or Pd catalysts.

The products from the hydrogenator are filtered (to remove catalyst
particles) and cooled before being fed to the second reactor which is
referred to as the oxidizer. In the second reactor, air or oxygen
enriched air is introduced to the work solution to reverse the
previous reaction via oxidation.

The contaminated air from the oxidizer is fed to a carbon adsorption
unit and then to a vent condenser. The work solution, now containing
nearly 40% hydrogen peroxide by weight, is cooled once again before
being fed to a liquid-liquid extraction unit. Water is fed to the
extractor and acts as the extracting agent. The hydrogen peroxide is
miscible in water while the solvents are not. Then the H2O2-water
layer can be removed and sent to Vacuum Column I and the solvent is
sent to be purified before it is recycled.

Feed to Vacuum Column I is preheated with the column condensate
(mostly water) which is then either refluxed back to the column or
sent to the extractor. In some cases, there are multiple columns to
separate the H2O2-water mixture from the extractor depending on the
deserved purity of the product). While water is removed as an overhead
product, the hydrogen peroxide is further concentrated as the bottom
product. Finally, the hydrogen peroxide product is cooled before being
treated with an inhibitor (to prevent oxidation) and sent to storage.

So, there you have it.

Now, despite its high cost, and despite its low energy content,
hydrogen peroxide has seen use as a rocket propellant, and as fuel in
specialty applications, like torpedoes that have to work underwater
without air.

I have even suggested Brad that if you have a better way to make H2O2
- than the process described above - one that is cheaper and more
productive - then the first step is to implement that process and OWN
the BLEACH markets. After that, you can do whatever the hell you
want! lol.

You'd be a billionaire.

There are even applications that H2O2 would be ideally suited for that
could be developed. These applications are niche markets, but they're
still HUGE..

A 60% solution of the stuff, does not pose an explosion risk - but
would be dandy to drive a small steam source to power a MEMs scale
steam turbine to power laptops and portable equipment reliably. In
resonse to a request from you Brad I even worked out a technique to
use H2O2 as a solvent in an ink to produce self powered inkjet
printheads. haha - that is, you have portable inkjet printers that
are powered by the ink they use.

H2O2 with 2.7 MJ/kg despite its terrible energy density is about 5x as
energy dense as a lithium ion battery. So, you could have a dandy
little package for cell phones or laptops that would last 5x longer
than batteries, and be recharged with $1 refills purchase at your
local CVS.

This would make several billions - per year. - something to do after
you've dominated the bleach markets.

A larger version might also even drive a pollution free electric car -
like the Tesla - but you wouldn't be able to recharge it efficiently
and the mess you'd have if you had a wreck! You'd have to carry
hundreds of gallons of the stuff ...and you'd never really compete
with batteries - a refill would cost nearly a thousand dollars - but
there are those that would proudly pay it I'm sure - ifyou advertised
properly - and they did it with a solar panel attached to the
equipment.

So, Brad, despite your idea being dumb, i have worked out a way for
you to develop this economically - and for two years you've done
nothing, while at the same time, totally ignored reality.

Which proves what I said at the outset. You don't care about
reality. You only care about how running your mouth makes you feel -
and that's you in a nutshell.
..



..