Astronomical reform

It is clear that some attempt must be made to deal with the present
crisis despite the ability of so many people to ignore it,insofar as
the technical details which predicate the crisis come within easy
intellectual reach of every single person here and by no means require
'expert' input,the reform direction must come from those who can see
the implications of the specific error,both historically and for
future investigations of the links between the celestial and
terrestrial arenas.The need for regulation to rein in a speculative
intellectual binge is long overdue,the implication of the last
'climate' speculative ideology that humans can control global
temperatures would not only have cost trillions is far outweighed by
the descent to the lowest possible rung of intelligence in drawing
such a conclusion.Far from being removed from the debacle of
climate ,the number of planets issue, the ridiculous no center/no
circumference ideologies , dealing with the specific error is central
to the reform as the intellectual machinery from the late 17th
century is responsible for creating so much of the present havoc.

It should be unthinkable for any person here,at least those who
consider themselves to have a freedom of intelligence to discuss and
deal with matters,that our race should even hesitate when explaining
the relationship between cause and effect of a round and rotating
Earth as it applies to the twin experiences of the daylight/darkness
cycle and twilight variations at different latitudes.It is not
possible to ignore the crisis or hope that it can be dealt with
anonymously over time as the distortions which forced out the great
astronomical insights on planetary dynamics and brought in the
predictions/modelling agenda begin and end with the most basic cause
and effect of a round and rotating Earth.

Most institutions require a period of review and reform with
astronomy,coming under the dominance of empiricism,requires it most
urgently ,those who will reform and regulate it until some stable
platform is restored will not hesitate when encountering the simple
and effective proof for the rotation of the Earth in terms of
cause ,effect using known rotational speeds.It is the enormity of the
error and how obvious the proof actually is that makes the silence in
the forum so disconcerting as a sane person knows it is correct but
this proof in itself is just a beginning of a productive era which
meshes planetary dynamics with terrestrial effects in a productive way
once the 'sidereal time' ideology attached to planetary dynamics is
dealt with.

The structures of reform are unclear but one thing is certain,those
who engage in reform will meet with initial but unrelenting opposition
from the opportunistic who have had it their own 'speculative' way for
so long yet considering how poor the opportunistic do understand
planetary dynamics and their effects,this expected hostility is really
an illusion.Let them talk on as if there was nothing wrong but things
have changed and changed for good.

oriel36 wrote:
gibberish
Why do you insist on viewing the sun as the center of the universe?

On Apr 25, 11:47*am, oriel36 wrote:

It is clear that some attempt must be made to deal with the present
crisis despite the ability of so many people to ignore it...

....except that there is no crisis, it exists only in your mind.

... It is not
possible to ignore the crisis or hope that it can be dealt with
anonymously over time...

So, don't remain anonymous, write up a paper and submit it to a peer-
reviewed journal of your choice. When an article is submitted to a
peer reviewed journal, the editors send it out to other scholars in
the same field (the author's peers) to get their opinion on the
quality of the scholarship, its relevance to the field, its
appropriateness for the journal, etc. If your theories have merit,
they will be published. Pretty simple, eh? Or, perhaps you think that
you have no peers, since, so far, you have found no one who agrees
with you?

The structures of reform are unclear ...

Well, no, they are not, as outlined above.

... those who engage in reform will meet with initial but unrelenting opposition...

.... and this should be expected. People expect you to know what you
are talking about when you open your mouth, and you, my friend, have
no clue about science in general and astronomy in particular. Your
inability to learn anything new is a serious flaw in your current
quest here, and you will find no followers. You are wasting your time
here endlessly spewing your tired and stagnant drivel, and no one is
buying into it. Perhaps you should turn to a less educated group to
sell your wares.

"Study without reflection is a waste of time; reflection without study
is dangerous”
- Confucius

\Paul A

On Apr 25, 8:29*pm, jeff wrote:
oriel36 wrote:

gibberish
Why do you insist on viewing the sun as the center of the universe?

No intelligent person can ignore that twilight lengths become longer
away from the equator correlating directly with slower rotational
speeds but somehow there is such hostility to a round and rotating
Earth that it has to be holocaust conditions and if people do not
comprehend it as a crisis,which it is,they are eagerly willing
participants in this living nightmare,whether through reactions such
as your or none at all.

If somebody can think of another astronomical fact that is more basic
than a round and rotating Earth then they are welcome to it but the
reason why the transition to darkness and daylight is so rapid at the
equator is due to its 1037.5 miles it covers in an hour and taking 24
hours to turn through its 24,901 mile equatorial circumference,turning
360 degrees to be precise.

As a Christian I find it difficult in the extreme that anybody could
suffer the 'sidereal time' reasoning for it goes against every known
experienceas it is so fundamental to associate daylight/darkness with
rotation and twilight length variations with known rotational speeds
at different latitudes that it would take some sort of unknown type of
reasoning to believe otherwise.Yet it appears the participants and the
gawkers in this forum can do it and if you all can live the rest of
your lives at such a poor standard of intelligence,one never seen
before on the planet,then I have to rely on my Christian faith that
there is something else going on in the reluctance to view this as
anything but a crisis that must be dealt with immediately.

On Apr 25, 2:27*pm, oriel36 wrote:

As a Christian I find it difficult in the extreme that anybody could
suffer the 'sidereal time' reasoning for it goes against every known
experience as it is so fundamental to associate daylight/darkness with
rotation

But while we associate the daylight/darkness cycle with the Earth's
rotation, rather than being blinded by surface appearances, we allow
ourselves to notice the fact that the Sun's position is affected by
the Equation of Time, while the return of a star is not -

and this helps confirm Copernicus' insight that the Earth revolves
around the Sun, and Kepler's discovery of the elliptical nature of its
orbit -

and thus it is natural to reach the more profound conclusion that the
Earth's own rotation, as visible through comparison with the distant
stars, is very nearly uniform in terms of mechanical clock time, while
the Equation of Time is a reflection of the interaction between the
Earth's rotation and the characteristics of the Earth's orbit around
the Sun.

This is no "intellectual crisis", it is proper and intelligent
reasoning.

John Savard

On Apr 25, 1:27*pm, oriel36 wrote:

No intelligent person can ignore that twilight lengths become longer
away from the equator correlating directly with slower rotational
speeds

Read everything below, from wiki, to LEARN that twilight length is
heavily influenced by the observer's latitude, but is not limited to
his latitude, there are definitely other factors involved. You are
trying to make things too simple.

"The length of twilight after sunset and before sunrise is heavily
influenced by the latitude of the observer. In the Arctic and
Antarctic regions, twilight (if at all) can last for several hours.
There is no civil twilight at the poles within a month on either side
of the winter solstice. At the poles, civil twilight can be as long as
two weeks, while at the equator, it can go from day to night in as
little as twenty minutes. This is because at low latitudes the sun's
apparent movement is perpendicular to the observer's horizon. As one
gets closer to the Arctic and Antarctic circles, the sun's disk moves
toward the observer's horizon at a lower angle. The observer's earthly
location will pass through the various twilight zones less directly,
taking more time.
Within the polar circles, twenty-four hour daylight is encountered in
summer and in regions very close to the poles, twilight can last for
weeks on the winter side of the equinoxes. Outside the polar circles,
where the angular distance from the polar circle is less than the
angle which defines twilight (see above), twilight can continue
through local midnight near the summer solstice (June in the Northern
Hemisphere, December in the Southern Hemisphere). The precise position
of the polar circles, and thus of the regions where twilight can
continue through local midnight, varies slightly from year to year
with Earth's axial tilt... "

The length of twilight, of course, is unrelated to sidereal time,
which is simply a direct measurement of the return of a star to the
meridian, which you can easily measure for yourself, no need to take
anyone's word for it.

\Paul A

oriel36 wrote:
On Apr 25, 8:29 pm, jeff wrote:
oriel36 wrote:

gibberish
Why do you insist on viewing the sun as the center of the universe?

No intelligent person can ignore that twilight lengths become longer
away from the equator correlating directly with slower rotational
speeds

Does slower rotational speed explain the increased twilight length in
the summer?

Yes? Only an idiot would believe that.
No? So it's not a direct correlation.


but somehow there is such hostility to a round and rotating
Earth that it has to be holocaust conditions and if people do not
comprehend it as a crisis,which it is,they are eagerly willing
participants in this living nightmare,whether through reactions such
as your or none at all.

If somebody can think of another astronomical fact that is more basic
than a round and rotating Earth then they are welcome to it but the
reason why the transition to darkness and daylight is so rapid at the
equator is due to its 1037.5 miles it covers in an hour and taking 24
hours to turn through its 24,901 mile equatorial circumference,turning
360 degrees to be precise.

As a Christian I find it difficult in the extreme that anybody could
suffer the 'sidereal time' reasoning for it goes against every known
experience as it is so fundamental to associate daylight/darkness with
rotation and twilight length variations with known rotational speeds
at different latitudes that it would take some sort of unknown type of
reasoning to believe otherwise.

What has your Christianity got to do with this? Please don't mistake
your anti-intellectualist worldview for a true religious sensibility.

Yet it appears the participants and the
gawkers in this forum can do it and if you all can live the rest of
your lives at such a poor standard of intelligence,one never seen
before on the planet,then I have to rely on my Christian faith that
there is something else going on in the reluctance to view this as
anything but a crisis that must be dealt with immediately.


Once again, I have to protest; Christianity does not require a denial of
intellect, and your rejection of reason is fundamentally anti-Christian.

On 4/25/10 1:47 PM, oriel36 wrote:
It is clear that some attempt must be made to deal with the present
crisis despite the ability of so many people to ignore it,insofar as
the technical details which predicate the crisis come within easy
intellectual reach of every single person here and by no means require
'expert' input,the reform direction must come from those who can see
the implications of the specific error,both historically and for
future investigations of the links between the celestial and
terrestrial arenas.

I'm sorry, Gerald, but the only crisis is of your own making. The
rest of us are doing fine.

On Apr 26, 12:38*am, OG wrote:
oriel36 wrote:
On Apr 25, 8:29 pm, jeff wrote:
oriel36 wrote:

gibberish
Why do you insist on viewing the sun as the center of the universe?

No intelligent person can ignore that twilight lengths become longer
away from the equator correlating directly with slower rotational
speeds

Does slower rotational speed explain the increased twilight length in
the summer?

Yes? *Only an idiot would believe that.
No? *So it's not a direct correlation.


A person who does not think that there is a direct correlation between
latitudinal rotational speeds and twilight lengths is in the same
league of intelligence as a person who does not think there is a
direct correlation between daily rotation and the daylight/darkness
cycle because of latitudinal variations in daylight/darkness
throughout the year.A person at the equator travelling at 1037.5 miles
per hour through the circle of illumination experiences a rapid
transit to darkness,people at 60 degrees latitude North and South
experience longer twilights as they pass through the circle of
illumination more slowly at 800 miles per hour therefore the
correlation is direct and strictly a property of a round and rotating
Earth for the daylight/darkness cycle is bound together with twilight
variations in such a way that it is impossible to separate them from
the independent motion of daily rotation.There is not the slightest
indication of anything controversial between cause and effect yet here
we are in the 21st century stuck in a one sided discussion involving
the planet and an absolute refusal to consider what are basic
astronomical facts and I am considered insane for believing that the
Earth rotates once in 24 hours.


There is no need for this,none of it,yet the 'sidereal time' reasoning
is behind the modelling/predictions agendas and the speculative binge
that emerges from that approach and I offer you to revisit the
correlation between an independent rotating Earth and the consequences
which show up at different latitudes in terms of twilight variations,
a reasonable person would draw the same conclusions while I will say
nothing about those who cannot. You already acknowledged rotational
speeds at different latitudes which determine that the Earth is round
as well as rotating and therefore has specific dimensions contained in
the following table when combining the rotational characteristics
contained in the imaginary lines of longitude ( 1 degree/4 minutes)
and latitudes lines which contain the information on the shape of the
planet -

http://www.ncgia.ucsb.edu/education/...s/table02.html



What has your Christianity got to do with this? Please don't mistake
your anti-intellectualist worldview for a true religious sensibility.


My Christianity has everything to do with this for no Christian could
support astronomical views that do not rise to a level where the cause
and effect of a round and rotating Earth are ignored or denied and
this is exactly what is happening here and in the wider community.One
of the great Christians was St Paul,a man who openly stated that he
once detested Christians to the point of hunting them down but his
intelligence was such that he could not do this for any length of time
and eventually became one of its greatest proponents in a most
dramatic way.The idea is that no intelligence person can knowingly
maintain a hatred against something which is magnificent and astronomy
is just that.

People may convince themselves that 'experts' have a good handle on
things and defer involvement but any reasonably interested person can
see that the experts have no regard for the reasoning which led to the
discovery of planetary dynamics,if they did,I would not have to spend
8 years trying to explain verifiable technical and historical points
surrounding the rotation of the Earth in 24 hours as it applies to the
calendar system,the Ra/Dec observational convenience,the longitude
problem and any amount of productive avenues that are gridlocked
because it would offend the followers of Flamsteed/Newton.The
deliberate silence alone makes this a holocaust,and I do not use the
word lightly,because of the impact this error has had and continues to
have and considering that our race barely escaped a reckless
conclusion based on a minor atmospheric gas and the idea that humans
can control global temperatures,this being a tributary of the original
predictions/modelling agenda which uses 'sidereal time' as a basis for
planetary dynamics.





Yet it appears the participants and the
gawkers in this forum can do it and if you all can live the rest of
your lives at such a poor standard of intelligence,one never seen
before on the planet,then I have to rely on my Christian faith that
there is something else going on in the reluctance to view this as
anything but a crisis that must be dealt with immediately.

Once again, I have to protest; Christianity does not require a denial of
intellect, and your rejection of reason is fundamentally anti-Christian.

I have to accept that there is something else going on here as under
normal circumstances there would not be the slightest indication that
there is anything controversial in the technical details which
correlate twilight lengths to rotational speeds organised around the
Earth's daily rotation .

On Apr 26, 1:02*am, oriel36 wrote:

A person who does not think that there is a direct correlation between
latitudinal rotational speeds and twilight lengths

You are absolutely right that the length of twilight is directly
correlated to twilight length.

It is also, of course, directly correlated to the width of the
twilight band, and this has to do with the angle the terminator makes
to the circle of latitude involved.

The criticisms of your statements in regard of twilight lengths have
to do with you apparently minimizing the importance of this second
correlation, or with it not being necessary to fully evaluate
latitudinal rotational speed to deal with twilight length (the width
of the twilight band can be expressed in degrees rather than miles, so
that one can exclude the scale factor of the Earth's radius). Not in
denying the correlation you note.

John Savard