Chinese Lenses

I know three things about you:
1 you have never heard of wallmart
2 you have no concept of what it takes to make a high quality telescope

3 any money you spent on your education was wasted. none of it sank in.



I only need to know one thing about you...your name calling of others
nullifies any credibility your opinon might have.

Of course, all of what you discussed is untrue.

Might you be someone who is benefitting financially from the current
high cost of APOs?

If so, I understand your fear but please realize that the cost of APOs
is long overdue for a price adjustment.

I can't hardly wait. ;)

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I know three things about you:
1 you have never heard of wallmart
2 you have no concept of what it takes to make a high quality
telescope

3 any money you spent on your education was wasted. none of it sank
in.



I only need to know one thing about you...your name calling of others
nullifies any credibility your opinon might have.

Of course, all of what you discussed is untrue.

Might you be someone who is benefitting financially from the current
high cost of APOs?

If so, I understand your fear but please realize that the cost of
APOs
is long overdue for a price adjustment.

I can't hardly wait. ;)

the fact still remains that your opinions have no basis. and if you
dont understand that by now you never will. hence, I am done with you.

Chloe

Sounds like without name calling you have nothing to argue your case
with so now you are going to take your overpriced AP telescope and go
home to sulk?

Are you a dealer? I suspect that you have been shown the same
prototypes that I have seen and have seen the projected prices.

So what did you think? All CNCed parts, gorgeous APO glass, modeled
after the Astro Physics line. I was impressed.

Yep, can't wait for those CHEAP APOs. ;)

Chloe makes a good point. how do the chinese keep the cost down on good
APOs if the process is allready automated?

thanks
Fiona

wrote in message
oups.com...
Chloe makes a good point. how do the chinese keep the cost down on good
APOs if the process is allready automated?

thanks
Fiona


In addition to direct labor costs, i.e. that labor directly involved with
the lens grinding process there are also indirect labor costs (which can be
a much higher cost). This includes all the other non-administrative people,
from off loading raw materials to driving the goods to the docks, etc.
Overhead (fixed and administrative costs) can be largely payroll (and
benefits) as well.

Although in the early examples at least, it seems cost was controlled in
part through using cheap tube assemblies.

Ed T.

Ed T wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Chloe makes a good point. how do the chinese keep the cost down on good
APOs if the process is allready automated?

thanks
Fiona



In addition to direct labor costs, i.e. that labor directly involved with
the lens grinding process there are also indirect labor costs (which can be
a much higher cost). This includes all the other non-administrative people,
from off loading raw materials to driving the goods to the docks, etc.
Overhead (fixed and administrative costs) can be largely payroll (and
benefits) as well.

China is the Japan of yester-year. Like Japan, they too will rise to the
ocassion, and drive up their own cost of living to the extent that their
products will not be cheap, for long. In the meantime, the poor in
America benefit a la Wal-Mart, as do the wealthy a la foreign
investments. The middle class of every other nation, as usual, carries
the burden of having to deal with the roller-coaster of economic ups and
downs.

SPaul

China is not at all like Japan. Chinese workers are far more boisterous
and lack discipline. Ask any Japanese manager of a Chinese facility and
he will tell you they must be supervised very closely or quality will
suffer.

The disparity between wages in China and other industrialized countries
is so great that there can be no happy outcome. Average wages in the
U.S. are around $16 an hour versus 40 cents in China. A wage of $2 an
hour would make 50 million Chinese workers very happy, but it would
spell doom for the U.S. (or EU) economy if our average wage dropped to
that level. Wages fell 45% in the U.S. some years back -- it was called
the Great Depression.


Stephen Paul wrote:

Ed T wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

Chloe makes a good point. how do the chinese keep the cost down on good
APOs if the process is allready automated?

thanks
Fiona



In addition to direct labor costs, i.e. that labor directly involved
with the lens grinding process there are also indirect labor costs
(which can be a much higher cost). This includes all the other
non-administrative people, from off loading raw materials to driving
the goods to the docks, etc. Overhead (fixed and administrative costs)
can be largely payroll (and benefits) as well.


China is the Japan of yester-year. Like Japan, they too will rise to the
ocassion, and drive up their own cost of living to the extent that their
products will not be cheap, for long. In the meantime, the poor in
America benefit a la Wal-Mart, as do the wealthy a la foreign
investments. The middle class of every other nation, as usual, carries
the burden of having to deal with the roller-coaster of economic ups and
downs.

SPaul

You missed the point and argued with me in your first paragraph.

And then agreed with me in your second.

Tim Killian wrote:
China is not at all like Japan. Chinese workers are far more boisterous
and lack discipline. Ask any Japanese manager of a Chinese facility and
he will tell you they must be supervised very closely or quality will
suffer.

The disparity between wages in China and other industrialized countries
is so great that there can be no happy outcome. Average wages in the
U.S. are around $16 an hour versus 40 cents in China. A wage of $2 an
hour would make 50 million Chinese workers very happy, but it would
spell doom for the U.S. (or EU) economy if our average wage dropped to
that level. Wages fell 45% in the U.S. some years back -- it was called
the Great Depression.


Stephen Paul wrote:

Ed T wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

Chloe makes a good point. how do the chinese keep the cost down on good
APOs if the process is allready automated?

thanks
Fiona



In addition to direct labor costs, i.e. that labor directly involved
with the lens grinding process there are also indirect labor costs
(which can be a much higher cost). This includes all the other
non-administrative people, from off loading raw materials to driving
the goods to the docks, etc. Overhead (fixed and administrative
costs) can be largely payroll (and benefits) as well.



China is the Japan of yester-year. Like Japan, they too will rise to
the ocassion, and drive up their own cost of living to the extent that
their products will not be cheap, for long. In the meantime, the poor
in America benefit a la Wal-Mart, as do the wealthy a la foreign
investments. The middle class of every other nation, as usual, carries
the burden of having to deal with the roller-coaster of economic ups
and downs.

SPaul

Ed T wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Chloe makes a good point. how do the chinese keep the cost down on
good
APOs if the process is allready automated?

thanks
Fiona


In addition to direct labor costs, i.e. that labor directly involved
with
the lens grinding process there are also indirect labor costs (which
can be
a much higher cost). This includes all the other non-administrative
people,
from off loading raw materials to driving the goods to the docks,
etc.
Overhead (fixed and administrative costs) can be largely payroll (and

benefits) as well.

Although in the early examples at least, it seems cost was controlled
in
part through using cheap tube assemblies.

Ed T.

shouldnt those costs be the same for all telescopes. when you eliminate
the cost of the glass, surface, and tube assembly isnt the cost of
shipping and administration based solely on wheight and number of units
respectively. if the cost of manufacture is negligable why does a cheap
chinese achromat cost ten times as much as a cheap newt of the same
size?

If one examines the "process" that produces a quality APO, it is hardly
automated to the extent it could be and will be.

As Ed points out, there is always labor costs with only a small portion
of that cost attributed to the optician who does the optical work. The
biggest share of the "labor cost" is the margin that the retail segment
has required. Distributor to customer direct sales over the Internet
has been and will continue to reduce this portion substantially in the
coming years.

Other costs are the mechanical subassembly which includes fit and
finish. This portion of the effort can be automated to a great extent.
One needs to remember that China is just beginning to use state of the
art technology and automation which will GREATLY lower prices of high
end products like APOs. The introduction of CNC into the production
effort will result in the fit and finish we are accustomed to APOs.
Adjustable cell mount prototypes are already designed and being
circulated to replace the crude mounts that see being sold today.
Focusers are following the same development trend with several models
already sitting on the shelf. One design option that surprised me was
the use of carbon fiber in a protoype tube assembly for a LARGE APO
being considered for export.

The introduction of economical high quality coatings because of the
volume of optics generated today in China allows performance that has
not been available until now. The quantities of optical glass being
used is now allowing for economies of scale that would not have been
possible just a few years ago. Simply put, the raw materials are CHEAP
because of the volumes being used.

As we saw the Japanese manufacturing progress from trash to high tech
in the past, we are seeing the Chinese follow the same path but at a
much accelerated rate. The current manufacturers of low volume high
margin custom APOs are in for incredible competition in the coming
years as the Chinese expand to compete in these high profit markets.