What if Wernher Von Braun Given First Try To Launch First Satellite?

On May 2, 5:47*pm, "Val Kraut" wrote:
" Which is what lead to my original comment about people not really

understanding how fast the "Germans" were rehabilited (enough such
that WVB was acceptable to Joe Sixpack the US of the early 50's),
while the "Nazis" remain reviled even today. *Today we take as a
matter of course that "Nazis" are seperate from "Germans". *Sixty
seven years ago today, just a little under a week before VE day, such
a thing would have been all but unthinkable to those who'd fought the
Germans not once, but *twice* in living memory.

Maybe not exactly. I have to word this carefully. Some time ago I read an
article about the end of the war and how we demonized Hitler as a person who
seized control and not the representative of all his people. Even look at
the British propaganda - Hitler and his henchmen were targeted directly.
Songs like Hitler - he only has one ball, and spike Jones in the Fuehrer's
face. So the thinking is, Hitler is the devil or anti Christ. When he was
dead - the sins committed went with him, his people were freed. The analogy
is an anti messiah who when he died the sins of common mankind went with
him. OK a bit deep. The other thing you have to remember that while Hitler
and Mussoli were taking on western civilization, there were many "German
heritage " farm boys from Iowa and Italians from Brooklyn, dropping bombs on
the reich and marching up the "soft" underbelly of Europe and wading ashore
at D-day, some of them my relatives, fighting to end the mess. So it makes
it hard to condem a people - especially if you have to live whith them after
the war. We grabbed the major bad guys and tried them at Nuremberg - so it
wasn't like the real leaders escaped punishment. The rituals were done and
normal relationships required for western civilazation were re-established.
War is truly complicated - unfortunately the analysis "On War" by von
Clauswitz was never finished.

Thank all for your comments. Actually I am older than most of you. I
am 73 years old.
Maybe you think I am senile. So unlike most of you I lived during this
time.The feeling
at that time was that the German people during the Nazi period were
distinct from the
Nazi criminals and were themselves oppressed by them while we know
that is not true
except for a few exceptions. I remember reading in late !956 or early
1957 that the U.S.
was planning to put a satelite into space and was pleased that my
dreams of space travel
were about to begin. I was also an avid science fiction reader. I also
remember in the
summer of 1957 that the Russians had tested the first ICBM so the
Americans should
not have been as suprised as they were about Sputnik. I was a student
at the University
of Toronto and when the professor in the class I was attending
announced the failure of
the first Vanguard launch there was general laughter in the class.
As far as Von Braun goes he was a hero at the time. I knew that he
was most responsible
for the V2 but not about the slave labour which makes him a war
criminal. Actually one
of the people that worked for him Rudolf was lost his his Amercan
citizenship and was
not allowed into the U.S. I was reminded about Von Braun with an
article from
the Jerusalem Post, which not only rightly was critical of his war
record in World War 2,
but even tried to diminish his importance. Of course genius and virtue
do not necessarily
go to together but this writer did not realize this.
A particular thanks goes to Billie. I have got his book out of the
library and will read it with interest.

"Val Kraut" wrote:

" Which is what lead to my original comment about people not really
understanding how fast the "Germans" were rehabilited (enough such
that WVB was acceptable to Joe Sixpack the US of the early 50's),
while the "Nazis" remain reviled even today. Today we take as a
matter of course that "Nazis" are seperate from "Germans". Sixty
seven years ago today, just a little under a week before VE day, such
a thing would have been all but unthinkable to those who'd fought the
Germans not once, but *twice* in living memory.

Maybe not exactly. I have to word this carefully. Some time ago I read an
article about the end of the war and how we demonized Hitler as a person who
seized control and not the representative of all his people. Even look at
the British propaganda - Hitler and his henchmen were targeted directly.
Songs like Hitler - he only has one ball, and spike Jones in the Fuehrer's
face. So the thinking is, Hitler is the devil or anti Christ. When he was
dead - the sins committed went with him, his people were freed. The analogy
is an anti messiah who when he died the sins of common mankind went with
him. OK a bit deep.

You're reading an article written long after the cultural changes I
mentioned occurred - there's little wonder that it takes the post
change condition and treats it as though it were a natural and
enternal state. Not to mention that there was plenty of propoganda
that was anti-"the [Hun|Jerry]" as well.

The other thing you have to remember that while Hitler and Mussoli were
taking on western civilization, there were many "German heritage " farm
boys from Iowa and Italians from Brooklyn, dropping bombs on the reich
and marching up the "soft" underbelly of Europe and wading ashore at D-day,
some of them my relatives, fighting to end the mess. So it makes
it hard to condem a people - especially if you have to live whith them after
the war.

Hard or not, it was done. Read the words of President Roosevelt in
1944:

"Too many people here and in England hold the view that the German
people as a whole are not responsible for what has taken place – that
only a few Nazis are responsible. That unfortunately is not based on
fact. The German people must have it driven home to them that the
whole nation has been engaged in a lawless conspiracy against the
decencies of modern civilization."

(From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JCS_1067#JCS_1067)


D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

heich1 wrote:

I also remember in the summer of 1957 that the Russians had
tested the first ICBM so the Americans should not have been
as suprised as they were about Sputnik.

Given the vast difficulty the US was having in even flying an ICBM or
a sattelite launcher, I see no reason why the US shouldn't have been
surprised. Doubly so considering the short time period (a bare five
weeks) between the first successfully ICBM launch, and the launch of
Sputnik I.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

"Greg (Strider) Moore" wrote in message
m...
"The Horny Goat" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 01 May 2012 20:43:42 GMT, (Derek Lyons)
wrote:

Not widely known or understood today is just how fast the "Nazis and
Nips" were publicly rehabilitated from the bloodthirsty and implacable
Enemies Of Democracy they were portrayed as in WWII into Stalwart
Allies Against Communism.

Not sure - I routinely saw Sergeant Rock comic books with Japanese
villains into my later teen years and I was born in 1955.

I hate to break it to you, Sergeant Rock was fictional. WvB was not.

Derek was talking about real live people like Wernher Van Braun. (which
btw, I still think everyone should listen to Tom Lehrer's song Wernher Von
Baun song at least once).


ARTIST: Tom Lehrer
TITLE: Wernher Von Braun
Lyrics and Chords


Gather round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun
A man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown
"Ha, Nazi schmazi," says Wernher von Braun



Don't say that he's hypocritical
Say rather that he's apolitical
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down
That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun



Some have harsh words for this man of renown
But some think our attitude should be one of gratitude
Like the widows and cripples in old London town
Who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun

You too may be a big hero
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero
"In German oder English I know how to count down
Und I'm learning Chinese," says Wernher von Braun

You too may be a big hero
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero
"In German oder English I know how to count down
Und I'm learning Chinese," says Wernher von Braun
A bit off-topic but in-line with this post.

During th 50s Strombecker issued a model of the von Braun personnel shuttle
from the Disney Tomorrowland episode. It was reissued by Glencoe. One guy
entered a set of these models in a hobby show. One was painted black with
Nazis markings on the wings, one was olive drab with american army markings,
one was bluish silver with soviet markings etc. The message - who ever had
the bucks would get the Buck Rogers.

On Apr 30, 11:55*pm, heich1 wrote:
Suppose if the task was not given to the U.S. navy to launch the first
satellite with the Vanguard program but to
Wernher Von Braun with his Explorer program? The result is pretty
obvious. The U.S. would have beat the Russians. Explorer would have
gone up before Sputnik. A more interesting question is why the U.S.
chose the
Vanguard program? After all the Army Redstone program was more ahead.
In fact Vanguard failed several times
while Explorer was sucessful in its first try. I have the theory that
they did not want to give Von Braun the credit because of his V2
program which attacked London and also the mistreatment of the slave
workers who worked on Nazi Germany's rocket program. What is your
opinion of this? Is there any evidence of this in documents from
that time?

with von braun showing clear superiority in space launches the space
race to the moon may have never occured, and no one may have visited

On May 4, 3:01*am, "Val Kraut" wrote:
You too may be a big hero
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero
"In German oder English I know how to count down
Und I'm learning Chinese," says Wernher von Braun

A bit off-topic but in-line with this post.

During th 50s Strombecker issued a model of the von Braun personnel shuttle
from the Disney Tomorrowland episode. It was reissued by Glencoe. One guy
entered a set of these models in a hobby show. One was painted black with
Nazis markings on the wings, one was olive drab with american army markings,
one was bluish silver with soviet markings etc. The message - who ever had
the bucks would get the Buck Rogers.

I have now read Matt Bille.s book (who posted on this topic) "The
First Space Race"
and I noticed two interesting comments. First on page 82, there was
the comment by
Steward who was the head of the committee which decided which proposal
to go ahead
with, the army proposal (with Von Braun) or the Vanguard proposal that
there was some
anti-German feeling among the committee members but doubted this was a
major
influence. What this probably meant that some of the committee members
made some
anti German remarks but gave other reasons when they explained how
they were going
to vote. The vote was 5-2 for the Vanguard proposal with Steward
himself voting in the
minority.

The other comment was on page 173 was that Von Braun did not have
direct access to
Eisenhower unlike that of Korolev(the man running the Soviet Space
Program) with
Khrushchev. Of course Eisenhower as president would have to initiate
this connection
not Von Braun. So there could be some truth in my original post.

I think it was the author of "The Rocket and the Reich" who said the
original plan was stunningly cheap, using lots of war surplus rockets
in multiple stages on top of a V-2. When I heard that I immediately
wondered if there could have been a NGO funding source. The figure was
so low I can't trust my memory; $120k ?

Nils

on 5/8/2012, supposed :
I think it was the author of "The Rocket and the Reich" who said the
original plan was stunningly cheap, using lots of war surplus rockets
in multiple stages on top of a V-2. When I heard that I immediately
wondered if there could have been a NGO funding source. The figure was
so low I can't trust my memory; $120k ?

How much design work was required to turn a V2 into a staged rocket?
I'd be concerned about the static structure with the weight of other
stages on top. Also, what were those upper stages? Vanguard used a
bunch of solid fuel rocket motors for the upper stage, and didn't von
Braun do the same for Explorer's rocket?

So how much had things changed in 10 years?

/dps

--
Who, me? And what lacuna?

Snidely wrote:

on 5/8/2012, supposed :
I think it was the author of "The Rocket and the Reich" who said the
original plan was stunningly cheap, using lots of war surplus rockets
in multiple stages on top of a V-2. When I heard that I immediately
wondered if there could have been a NGO funding source. The figure was
so low I can't trust my memory; $120k ?

How much design work was required to turn a V2 into a staged rocket?
I'd be concerned about the static structure with the weight of other
stages on top. Also, what were those upper stages? Vanguard used a
bunch of solid fuel rocket motors for the upper stage, and didn't von
Braun do the same for Explorer's rocket?

So how much had things changed in 10 years?

Things hadn't changed much at all. Not have they changed down to
today - paper rockets are always cheap, and paper engineering is
always easy.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL