Lamination as a tool for distinguishing microbial and metazoan biosystems

Ralph Nesbitt wrote:
"Thomas Lee Elifritz" wrote in message
...

November 11, 2004

Aidan Karley wrote:


The discovery of life on Mars is likely to be the product of a
lot of boring, detail work, not a sudden startling discovery
(particularly from the archives that have already been scanned by
full-time geologists as the data is coming in). IF it ever happens.
That's a word "IF", which you'll find in your dictionary beyond
"certain" and before "impossible".

plonk

That was so easy.

Thomas Lee Elifritz


The gentleman makes a resonable argument against your position in his
complete post. IMHO to snip a portion of an argument you aparrently are not
comfortable responding to, then ignoring the balance makes you a candidate
for the way you treat others that question your arguments.

PLONK
Ralph Nesbitt


Interesting that the argument is shifting to "was there ever life on
Mars" from "is there life on Mars". Also "was there ever water on mars"
from "is there significant water on Mars". So the adventure goes on.

November 11, 2004

Ralph Nesbitt wrote:

PLONK



Let's see if anything you post is worth reading :

http://www.google.com/groups?safe=im...bitt&lr=&hl=en

Let's get more specific :

http://www.google.com/groups?as_q=el...bitt&lr=&hl=en

Nope. Nothing much there.

plonk

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

In article , Bob Ehrlich wrote:
Also "was there ever water on mars"
from "is there significant water on Mars". So the adventure goes on.

That's the way that science works (with fits and starts G).

--
Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland,
Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233

In article , Ralph
Nesbitt wrote:
That was so easy.

Thomas Lee Elifritz

The gentleman makes a resonable argument against your position in his
complete post.

I wasn't even aware that Elifritz was in the discussion. He's
been in my killfile for several weeks (I clear my kill file regularly,
and take pleasure in reinstating the Min's of the world. I'd not
noticed Elifritz before my recent return to being connected, but it
took less than a week for him to find his way there.

--
Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland,
Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233

in article , jonathan at wrote on
11/10/04 6:33 PM:




Warm mineral rich hydrothermal systems are also considered
to have the highest biological potential of any context.
Combined with the vast deposits of iron in the form of
hematite, and high concentrations of sulfates, provide
a context highly consistent with sulfate reducing bacteria.
Which is the type of bacteria thought to have been the
very earliest to evolve.

.....and high concentrations of sulfates, provide
a context highly consistent with sulfate reducing bacteria.?????

You got it backwards Try INCONSISTENT

JGM

"gresham" wrote in message
...
in article , jonathan at wrote on
11/10/04 6:33 PM:




Warm mineral rich hydrothermal systems are also considered
to have the highest biological potential of any context.
Combined with the vast deposits of iron in the form of
hematite, and high concentrations of sulfates, provide
a context highly consistent with sulfate reducing bacteria.
Which is the type of bacteria thought to have been the
very earliest to evolve.

....and high concentrations of sulfates, provide
a context highly consistent with sulfate reducing bacteria.?????

You got it backwards Try INCONSISTENT



What? Sulfates in anaerobic conditions are ideal
for sulfur reducing bacteria.



"Sulfate is used as a sulfur source by many organisms; in doing so
they reduce sulfate to sulfhydryl groups in organic sulfur compounds.
Sulfate-reducing bacteria carry out the dissimilative reduction of sulfate
to hydrogen sulfide in anaerobic environments. These organisms use
organic compounds or H2 as a source of electrons to reduce sulfate."


"There are some regions on the ocean floor of high biological activity.
These are hydrothermal vents from which hot, mineral-rich water emanates.
The water contains reduced sulfur compounds that serve as energy sources
for S-oxidizing chemolithotrophs. These autotrophic bacteria perform
the function fulfilled by photosynthetic organisms on the earth's surface
-- they are the primary producers of the ecosystem. Dense populations
of invertebrate animals are found near the vents. However, they do
not eat the sulfur bacteria, but rather form symbiotic associations
with them."
http://cwx.prenhall.com/bookbind/pub...e-content.html







JGM

"Jo Schaper" wrote in message
...
jonathan wrote:

"Nowhere known to me on earth are spherical concretions found in
anywhere nearly the concentration we have been shown within the
layered substrate in that Martian crater or in adjacent areas
where the concretions seem to have weathered (or have been
knocked) ex situ.

You must not be familiar with the concentrations of cave pearls,


I've seen plenty of pics of them. And every little bowl
is different from the next one due to different water flow etc.
And none of them have asymetrical features such as a
single aperture or off-center slash, but are highly
symmetrical since they were formed by moving water.
When you show me a collection of pearls all showing the
same unique indentations and covering an area the size of
Wyoming as they do at Meridiani, then we'll talk~



BIOGENIC STRUCTURES FROM A HYPERSALINE LAKE
IN THE BAHAMAS.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2001/pdf/1068.pdf

"Results and Discussion: Our FE-SEM analy-sis
indicates a range of microbial life forms on the frac-tured
stromatolite surfaces. Spheroidal features are the
most common, with four distinct populations, charac-terized
by their highly uniform intrapopulation sizes:
The large spheres (Fig. 1) and medium spheres' populations (Fig. 2)
are isolated from each other and the other two smaller populations.
Most of the large spheres have uniform surface indentations.
Most of the medium spheres are clustered together in
aggregates of three or four."

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...nity_m182.html

"The small and tiny spheres
are closely associated with each other."

http://mars.gh.wh.uni-dortmund.de/me...5L6L6.jpg.html

"...chemical analysis may provide additional insights
into the origin of the tiny spheres.
Water on the Martian surface may have
formed subtidal pools formed that are similar to Storr's
Lake. Stromatolites, which are essentially bacterial
colonies on an enormous scale, could be the first step
in life's mass aggregation in any environment where
bacteria-like organisms live."



where
said pearls coat the floors of rooms many meters square in area, and
formed when these (usually sandy) cave floors are intermittently flooded
with calcite rich water. Now, near as we know, these are not aseptic
locations, and the microbes there can affect the rates at which cave
pearls form, but the microbes themselves do not create the pearls.

in article , jonathan at wrote on
11/11/04 9:25 PM:


"gresham" wrote in message
...
in article , jonathan at wrote on
11/10/04 6:33 PM:




Warm mineral rich hydrothermal systems are also considered
to have the highest biological potential of any context.
Combined with the vast deposits of iron in the form of
hematite, and high concentrations of sulfates, provide
a context highly consistent with sulfate reducing bacteria.
Which is the type of bacteria thought to have been the
very earliest to evolve.

....and high concentrations of sulfates, provide
a context highly consistent with sulfate reducing bacteria.?????

You got it backwards Try INCONSISTENT



What? Sulfates in anaerobic conditions are ideal
for sulfur reducing bacteria.

Yes indeed, but the presents of sulfates cannot be used as evidence that
sulfur reducing bacteria are in any way indicated.

As you point out:

"Sulfate is used as a sulfur source by many organisms; in doing so
they reduce sulfate to sulfhydryl groups in organic sulfur compounds.
Sulfate-reducing bacteria carry out the dissimilative reduction of sulfate
to hydrogen sulfide in anaerobic environments. These organisms use
organic compounds or H2 as a source of electrons to reduce sulfate."

Q.E.D Sulfates indicate the lack of sulfur reducing bacteria

By the way ...where do the organisms find the 'H2'...Oh yes and how do
you explain the high SO4 in overpressure shales? Or for that matter the
sulfate in salt dome cap rock??

AND:

"There are some regions on the ocean floor of high biological activity.
These are hydrothermal vents from which hot, mineral-rich water emanates.
The water contains reduced sulfur compounds that serve as energy sources
for S-oxidizing chemolithotrophs. These autotrophic bacteria perform
the function fulfilled by photosynthetic organisms on the earth's surface
-- they are the primary producers of the ecosystem. Dense populations
of invertebrate animals are found near the vents. However, they do
not eat the sulfur bacteria, but rather form symbiotic associations
with them."
http://cwx.prenhall.com/bookbind/pub...ives/deluxe-co
ntent.html

Gee these guys could eat the other guys **** and both would get fat!


JGM

in article , jonathan at wrote on
11/11/04 9:49 PM:


"Jo Schaper" wrote in message
...
jonathan wrote:

"Nowhere known to me on earth are spherical concretions found in
anywhere nearly the concentration we have been shown within the
layered substrate in that Martian crater or in adjacent areas
where the concretions seem to have weathered (or have been
knocked) ex situ.

You must not be familiar with the concentrations of cave pearls,

Gee am I the only person who has seen those giant (6 ft+) spherical
concretions found near the U. of Ohio ??

"Aidan Karley" wrote in message
. invalid...
In article , Ralph
Nesbitt wrote:
That was so easy.

Thomas Lee Elifritz

The gentleman makes a resonable argument against your position in his
complete post.

I wasn't even aware that Elifritz was in the discussion. He's
been in my killfile for several weeks (I clear my kill file regularly,
and take pleasure in reinstating the Min's of the world. I'd not
noticed Elifritz before my recent return to being connected, but it
took less than a week for him to find his way there.

--
Aidan Karley,

Elifritz partially quoted a a response by you to another post, then
belittled it. The partial quote by itself without context was not rational
to the thread. This he emphasized.

For calling his hand for doing such, he responded with a holier than thou
belittling response as if he were King/Moderator of SGG & SPP.
Ralph Nesbitt