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Lamination as a tool for distinguishing microbial and metazoan biosystems
Lamination as a tool for distinguishing microbial and metazoan biosystems from inert structures Conclusion: "Lamination often indicates the presence of microbial or microbially dominated biosystems. Furthermore, laminated structures are an important borderline to distinguish micro and macroorganisms, although such a distinction is relative. Both the presence and absence of lamination are lawful phenomena based on the fundamental physical and biological/biogeochemical principles." http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lpi/scholz.pdf 'nuff said! http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2443L2M1.HTML Jonathan s |
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jonathan wrote:
Lamination as a tool for distinguishing microbial and metazoan biosystems from inert structures Conclusion: "Lamination often indicates the presence of microbial or microbially dominated biosystems. Furthermore, laminated structures are an important borderline to distinguish micro and macroorganisms, although such a distinction is relative. Both the presence and absence of lamination are lawful phenomena based on the fundamental physical and biological/biogeochemical principles." http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lpi/scholz.pdf 'nuff said! http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2443L2M1.HTML Jonathan s BULL**** |
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November 9, 2004
Bob Ehrlich wrote: jonathan wrote: Lamination as a tool for distinguishing microbial and metazoan biosystems from inert structures Conclusion: "Lamination often indicates the presence of microbial or microbially dominated biosystems. Furthermore, laminated structures are an important borderline to distinguish micro and macroorganisms, although such a distinction is relative. Both the presence and absence of lamination are lawful phenomena based on the fundamental physical and biological/biogeochemical principles." http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lpi/scholz.pdf 'nuff said! http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2443L2M1.HTML Jonathan s BULL**** Hmmm, let's see, jonathan offers us a the title to a scientific conference paper, a link to scientific conference paper, a quote from the paper, and a link to an image, but Bob only offers us BS. jonathan or Bob? So many choices, so little time. I think I'll have to go with jonathan on this one. plonk Thomas Lee Elifritz http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net |
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"Bob Ehrlich" wrote in message ... jonathan wrote: Lamination as a tool for distinguishing microbial and metazoan biosystems from inert structures Conclusion: "Lamination often indicates the presence of microbial or microbially dominated biosystems. Furthermore, laminated structures are an important borderline to distinguish micro and macroorganisms, although such a distinction is relative. Both the presence and absence of lamination are lawful phenomena based on the fundamental physical and biological/biogeochemical principles." http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lpi/scholz.pdf 'nuff said! http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2443L2M1.HTML Jonathan s BULL**** It's always helpful to say why you think so. The thing is Bob, that laminated rocks are pervasive at Meridiani, they are everywhere there. That needs an explanation. Why are there so many repetitive layers in an environment that seems comparatively static? And why is iron and hematite in such abundance? Maybe this is why? "It is this common association of microbes and iron deposition on earth that has spurred hopes that robot crafts exploring the hematite anomaly of Mars' Meridiani Planum might find evidence for ancient life. The hematite deposits of Meridiani Planum [7], regardless of their exact origin, are considered to be a favorable host for microorganisms that might have been associated with their formation [8]." http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1369.pdf "Spacecraft observations of the landing area for one of NASA's two Mars rovers now indicate there likely was an enormous sea or lake covering the region in the past, according to a new University of Colorado at Boulder study." http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/2004/261.html Lots of water, iron and laminated (bio)sedimentary rocks. Lots of soil that shouldn't be there under the present conditions and lots of mysterious spheres. This just reeks not of geology, but an ecosystem. But if this still isn't enough, there's a simple logical argument that is difficult to refute. Countless spheres show the same asymmetrical features, such as an off-center slash and a single aperture. Asymmetrical features are a product of random processes, so there should be a random distribution of sizes, shapes etc. Yet one sphere after another shows the ...very same...asymmetrical features. Virtually identical and to the horizon. This contradiction means a non-living explanation for the spheres is logically ruled out. Only life can make near perfect copies of itself. Jonathan s |
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In article , Jonathan wrote:
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems,sci.geo.ge ology,sci.space.policy What on earth is this being posted to poetry groups for? This is classic trolling behaviour, which is not really what your normally reasonable (overenthusiastic perhaps, but not classic kookery). I'm not really sure what the relevance to "space policy" is, apart from it's got to do with an established space mission, but I suppose that's sufficient relevance. Lamination can be formed by both organic and inorganic mechanisms. No geologist worth their salt is unfamiliar with multiple ways that it can be formed, so in interpreting any particular deposit you have to look at the entirety of the evidence. Conclusion: "Lamination often indicates the presence of microbial or microbially dominated biosystems. I think that your eyes are reading the letters "often" but your brain is hearing "utterly invariably". -- Aidan Karley, Aberdeen, Scotland, Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233 |
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"Aidan Karley" wrote in message . invalid... In article , Jonathan wrote: Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems,sci.geo.ge ology,sci.space.policy What on earth is this being posted to poetry groups for? Those are the ngs I post to normally. They don't mind much. This is classic trolling behavior, which is not really what your normally reasonable (overenthusiastic perhaps, but not classic kookery). Trolling is an attempt to make fools of others. Cross-posting is more an attempt to draw attention to oneself, a bit childish perhaps, but not mean-spirited as in a troll. I'm not really sure what the relevance to "space policy" is, apart from it's got to do with an established space mission, but I suppose that's sufficient relevance. Lamination can be formed by both organic and inorganic mechanisms. I agree absolutely. The big question is to figure out which it is. From Dr Farmer, head of Nasa's Astrobiology Program and a primary source for my opinions on this subject. "At all scales of observation, problems often arise when trying to distinguish between biological and inorganic features in the ancient rock record. Stromatolites, defined as laminated biosedimentary fabrics formed by the trapping and binding of sediments and/or precipitation of minerals by microorganisms (Walter 1977), are sometimes impossible to distinguish from finely laminated sediments formed by inorganic processes" http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/taphon.pdf According to Dr Farmer a primary method of answering which is the case is through looking for anomalous concentrations of trace metals. Morphological Biosignatures and the Search for Life on Mars "Determining the location of potential paleobiological repositories on Mars requires an understanding of the martian surface in terms of elemental abundances and mineralogy. This variety of hematite on Earth forms only in the presence of large amounts of water, and typically at elevated (hydrothermal) temperatures (Christensen et al., 2000)." http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/morpho.pdf It should be clear Meridiani is shaped by underground water. This outcrop water flow seems obvious to me. http://mars.gh.wh.uni-dortmund.de/me...5L7L7.jpg.html http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...NP1909L0M1.JPG Warm mineral rich hydrothermal systems are also considered to have the highest biological potential of any context. Combined with the vast deposits of iron in the form of hematite, and high concentrations of sulfates, provide a context highly consistent with sulfate reducing bacteria. Which is the type of bacteria thought to have been the very earliest to evolve. No geologist worth their salt is unfamiliar with multiple ways that it can be formed, so in interpreting any particular deposit you have to look at the entirety of the evidence. This geologist provided a nice explanation of bacterial concretions, which also fit nicely with the observations. "The geologists employed by NASA-JPL must not be very well- informed on research during recent years concerning the function of bacteria in a vast array of diagenetic (rock forming) processes and, including the nucleation and growth of concretions. Yet, in my research into diagenesis in paleoichnites (ancient traces such as animal tracks and their fossilized droppings, coprolites) it has been necessary to get into current research on that, in order to better understand the things my colleagues and I in paleoichnology find in streambeds and in broader areas of anciently tracked-upon substrates." "Nowhere known to me on earth are spherical concretions found in anywhere nearly the concentration we have been shown within the layered substrate in that Martian crater or in adjacent areas where the concretions seem to have weathered (or have been knocked) ex situ. Wherever I have found concretions in Early Cretaceous substrates (Barremian-Aptian) they have formed where the 'muck' that was turned to rock (likely with the help of bacteria) was (when wet, in dinosaur times) full of organic material and bacteria, both ferrophagic (iron eating) and other." "In the wet, mushy or 'muddy' environment, the resulting micro- concretion slowly grows (sometimes incorporating or encapsulating adjacent grains of silt or sand, sometimes simply by crystalline growth from colloidally suspended silica crystallizing and pushing adjacent silt ahead of its growth, sometimes by a combination of the two processes), increasing its diameter spherically across time. If conditions for the bacterial colony's growth are episodic, one can sometimes see (upon slicing the concretion) rather distinct concentric layers of growth that formed the concretion, but where conditions for growth are constant, the concretion may show a crystalline pattern with virtually no concentric layering." http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/.../m03-035.shtml And this description of how bacterial concretions form is highly consistent with the pictures of the spheres. In the following pic at the lower left is a sphere showing just such a growth pattern. http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...8P2956M2M1.JPG And there's plenty more contextual evidence that is consistent with an ecosystem shaped by bacteria. I'll stop here and wait for the next question. I bet I can answer it g. Try me, that's the whole point of this post, is to see if anyone can poke holes in this view. Not a troll, but an invitation to debate a possibly timeless and magnificent discovery. Jonathan s Conclusion: "Lamination often indicates the presence of microbial or microbially dominated biosystems. I think that your eyes are reading the letters "often" but your brain is hearing "utterly invariably". -- Aidan Karley, Aberdeen, Scotland, Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233 |
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jonathan wrote:
"Nowhere known to me on earth are spherical concretions found in anywhere nearly the concentration we have been shown within the layered substrate in that Martian crater or in adjacent areas where the concretions seem to have weathered (or have been knocked) ex situ. You must not be familiar with the concentrations of cave pearls, where said pearls coat the floors of rooms many meters square in area, and formed when these (usually sandy) cave floors are intermittently flooded with calcite rich water. Now, near as we know, these are not aseptic locations, and the microbes there can affect the rates at which cave pearls form, but the microbes themselves do not create the pearls. |
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In article , Jonathan wrote:
According to Dr Farmer a primary method of answering which is the case is through looking for anomalous concentrations of trace metals. Which is why the rovers are equipped with the X-ray tools - to get the chemistry. Warm mineral rich hydrothermal systems are also considered to have the highest biological potential of any context. Certainly interesting. But they are not the *only* game in town. and high concentrations of sulfates, provide a context highly consistent with sulfate reducing bacteria. Which is the type of bacteria thought to have been the very earliest to evolve. Some people have suggested it. Other people have suggested other bacteria. And the horizontal mobility of bacterial genes renders the question very moot. I'm not aware of any "consensus" opinion that isn't disputed by another (equally respectable) "consensus". Try me, that's the whole point of this post, The only question that I've really got is, how many regular readers of the poetry groups have you asked if they enjoy being cross-posted on these messages (cross-posting cut down to sci.geo.geology and sci.space.policy, btw). I notice that you don't consider it relevant to post whatever poetry-related thoughts you have here, which is probably keeping you out of a lot of people's killfiles. I look at rocks for my living. I look at *boring* rocks for my living to be precise (I look at *interesting* rocks for fun). I've not seen anything particularly interesting in any of the links that you've posted. They're sandy sediments with cross bedding. Film at 11. They show that Mars had an early, moist period. Film at 11. They show that there was hydrothermal activity in the early Martian geology. Film at 11. The discovery of life on Mars is likely to be the product of a lot of boring, detail work, not a sudden startling discovery (particularly from the archives that have already been scanned by full-time geologists as the data is coming in). IF it ever happens. That's a word "IF", which you'll find in your dictionary beyond "certain" and before "impossible". -- Aidan Karley, Aberdeen, Scotland, Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233 |
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November 11, 2004
Aidan Karley wrote: The discovery of life on Mars is likely to be the product of a lot of boring, detail work, not a sudden startling discovery (particularly from the archives that have already been scanned by full-time geologists as the data is coming in). IF it ever happens. That's a word "IF", which you'll find in your dictionary beyond "certain" and before "impossible". plonk That was so easy. Thomas Lee Elifritz http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net |
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"Thomas Lee Elifritz" wrote in message ... November 11, 2004 Aidan Karley wrote: The discovery of life on Mars is likely to be the product of a lot of boring, detail work, not a sudden startling discovery (particularly from the archives that have already been scanned by full-time geologists as the data is coming in). IF it ever happens. That's a word "IF", which you'll find in your dictionary beyond "certain" and before "impossible". plonk That was so easy. Thomas Lee Elifritz The gentleman makes a resonable argument against your position in his complete post. IMHO to snip a portion of an argument you aparrently are not comfortable responding to, then ignoring the balance makes you a candidate for the way you treat others that question your arguments. PLONK Ralph Nesbitt |
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