...First Microscopic Images of Soil from another World...and Several Mysteries

jonathan wrote:
"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
lephone...


George wrote:

NASA said today that the hole is directly beneath a thruster, and so is
probably the result of a thruster firing when the craft landed. They also
said that that might indicate that the slab is ice.


Or dry ice... I took a Bernz-O-Matic torch to water ice with very poor results
indeed, and the total time of the landing engine's impinging on the Martian
surface would be be very low, measured in a few seconds at most.


I was wondering about that. But I think they're going to find the white
slabs and material in the trench is indeed water ice. That area has
observations from the Odyssey orbiter showing from 30% to 60%
water ice in the first meter or so. Even in the first few inches.

The poles are all covered with Co2 ice, but on the fringes surrounding
the poles is a region of water ice. Which is where they landed.
So I think that's a slab of water ice with naturally bored holes.

The data supports a ...currently active...water cycle on Mars in
these areas. Which is what life needs. I believe the best conditions
for life would be where water transitions from water-ice-vapor
and back again. Not so much in any one of those realms, but where
the transition takes place. This landing site is looking better every
day. I'm getting psyched up!

Water Mass Map from Neutron Spectrometer
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ph...-20080513.html


ASU scientist finds Martian ice is patchy and variable

"The fact that ice is present near the depth of stability in the current
Martian climate shows that the ground ice is responding to
climate cycles," he says." "This implies that water ice in the ground
can swap places with water vapor in the atmosphere as the climate
changes, he says, adding:
"The THEMIS measurements support an active water cycle on Mars,
such as other research has predicted."
http://asunews.asu.edu/stories/20070...03_marsice.htm


It really didn't help that it took so long to get the soil sample into the
test chamber - any CO2 or water ice in it might have sublimated into the
atmosphere between the time it was scooped up and the time it finally got into
the test chamber days later.
Ideally, the soil sample goes into the test chamber within a few minutes after
the arm scoops it up, to preserve any volatile ices in it.
I still have grave doubts about it finding water ice, but would happily admit
to being wrong about this if firm proof of water ice is found, because of the
profound implications of such a finding.


Here's a really nice paper on the presumed history of water ice at
the Phoenix Mars landing site. Aptly named....

THE HISTORY OF ICE AT THE PHOENIX MARS
LANDING SITE
Lunar and Planetary Science XXXIX (2008) 1479

What's interesting is this statement below is about the age
of the ice.

"It is not reliably known when the last massive ice sheet
formed [14, 5, 6] or how humidity varies with time. In total,
four climate scenarios are simulated: Precipitation 5640 ka
ago and 632 ka ago (the most recent obliquity maximum with
~35 d) with constant humidity and time �varying humidity.
Figure 3 shows preliminary model results for the vertical
ice profile, if the last ice sheet formed 632 ka ago. The massive
ice sheet is much closer to the surface than it would be had
it last formed millions of years ago."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2008/pdf/1479.pdf


Not so old as we've been led to believe all this time.
Nearer the surface means younger. And if that is ice
they've photographed so close to the surface....it must
be very young. Since the soil is thought to build from
dust accumulation from the air.

Since other data indicates Mars is just now exiting
an ice age and warming, it may be the last warm
period with liquid water near the surface could have
have been that figure of 630,000 years ago.

Not billions, maybe not even millions of years ago.
And another thing, it's pretty clear from the much
greater lag deposit at the Phoenix site that it's a much
older surface than at Meridiani, which is pure soil
with hardly a rock to be found. That implies water
ice could have been at Meridiani even more recently.

I'm going with ...all the white stuff... is water ice.






Pat


Under what conditions does carbonated salt water stay frozen?

Also, frozen hydrogen peroxide is not entirely impossible.

kk

jonathan wrote:
"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
lephone...


George wrote:

NASA said today that the hole is directly beneath a thruster, and so is
probably the result of a thruster firing when the craft landed. They also
said that that might indicate that the slab is ice.


Or dry ice... I took a Bernz-O-Matic torch to water ice with very poor results
indeed, and the total time of the landing engine's impinging on the Martian
surface would be be very low, measured in a few seconds at most.


I was wondering about that. But I think they're going to find the white
slabs and material in the trench is indeed water ice. That area has
observations from the Odyssey orbiter showing from 30% to 60%
water ice in the first meter or so. Even in the first few inches.

The poles are all covered with Co2 ice, but on the fringes surrounding
the poles is a region of water ice. Which is where they landed.
So I think that's a slab of water ice with naturally bored holes.

The data supports a ...currently active...water cycle on Mars in
these areas. Which is what life needs. I believe the best conditions
for life would be where water transitions from water-ice-vapor
and back again. Not so much in any one of those realms, but where
the transition takes place. This landing site is looking better every
day. I'm getting psyched up!

Water Mass Map from Neutron Spectrometer
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ph...-20080513.html


ASU scientist finds Martian ice is patchy and variable

"The fact that ice is present near the depth of stability in the current
Martian climate shows that the ground ice is responding to
climate cycles," he says." "This implies that water ice in the ground
can swap places with water vapor in the atmosphere as the climate
changes, he says, adding:
"The THEMIS measurements support an active water cycle on Mars,
such as other research has predicted."
http://asunews.asu.edu/stories/20070...03_marsice.htm


It really didn't help that it took so long to get the soil sample into the
test chamber - any CO2 or water ice in it might have sublimated into the
atmosphere between the time it was scooped up and the time it finally got into
the test chamber days later.
Ideally, the soil sample goes into the test chamber within a few minutes after
the arm scoops it up, to preserve any volatile ices in it.
I still have grave doubts about it finding water ice, but would happily admit
to being wrong about this if firm proof of water ice is found, because of the
profound implications of such a finding.


Here's a really nice paper on the presumed history of water ice at
the Phoenix Mars landing site. Aptly named....

THE HISTORY OF ICE AT THE PHOENIX MARS
LANDING SITE
Lunar and Planetary Science XXXIX (2008) 1479

What's interesting is this statement below is about the age
of the ice.

"It is not reliably known when the last massive ice sheet
formed [14, 5, 6] or how humidity varies with time. In total,
four climate scenarios are simulated: Precipitation 5640 ka
ago and 632 ka ago (the most recent obliquity maximum with
~35 d) with constant humidity and time �varying humidity.
Figure 3 shows preliminary model results for the vertical
ice profile, if the last ice sheet formed 632 ka ago. The massive
ice sheet is much closer to the surface than it would be had
it last formed millions of years ago."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2008/pdf/1479.pdf


Not so old as we've been led to believe all this time.
Nearer the surface means younger. And if that is ice
they've photographed so close to the surface....it must
be very young. Since the soil is thought to build from
dust accumulation from the air.

Since other data indicates Mars is just now exiting
an ice age and warming, it may be the last warm
period with liquid water near the surface could have
have been that figure of 630,000 years ago.

Not billions, maybe not even millions of years ago.
And another thing, it's pretty clear from the much
greater lag deposit at the Phoenix site that it's a much
older surface than at Meridiani, which is pure soil
with hardly a rock to be found. That implies water
ice could have been at Meridiani even more recently.

I'm going with ...all the white stuff... is water ice.






Pat


Under what conditions does carbonated salt water stay frozen?

Also, frozen hydrogen peroxide is not entirely impossible.

kk

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:20:20 -0700 (PDT), windbag
wrote:

Under what conditions does carbonated salt water stay frozen?

....Two points:

1) "jonathan" is a known troll. Most of us - at least, those of us
with one iota of sense - have killfiled him. Please do the same for
the sake of your sanity and ours.

2) If you *must* reply to him, trim the quotes. The less you quote,
the less he wastes bandwidth again.

Thanks!


OM
--
]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[

On Jun 18, 5:15*am, "V for Vendicar"
m wrote:
* The atmospheric pressure 2cm under a pile of sand is not practically
different than the atmospheric pressure at the surface.

* Salt.

Say what one will against them, the European and UK papers have the
best headline writers bar none: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06...wet_chemistry/

Barb
--------
"One ought, every day at least, to hear a little song, read a good
poem, see a fine picture, and if it were possible, to speak a few
reasonable words."
-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, liked geology, had mineral named after
him.

On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 20:06:13 -0700 (PDT), Belba Grubb
wrote:

Say what one will against them, the European and UK papers have the
best headline writers bar none: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06...wet_chemistry/

....Wouldn't that be "asparagii"?

OM
--
]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[

On Jun 21, 9:22 pm, windbag wrote:
jonathan wrote:
"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
lephone...

George wrote:

NASA said today that the hole is directly beneath a thruster, and so is
probably the result of a thruster firing when the craft landed. They also
said that that might indicate that the slab is ice.

Or dry ice... I took a Bernz-O-Matic torch to water ice with very poor results
indeed, and the total time of the landing engine's impinging on the Martian
surface would be be very low, measured in a few seconds at most.

I was wondering about that. But I think they're going to find the white
slabs and material in the trench is indeed water ice. That area has
observations from the Odyssey orbiter showing from 30% to 60%
water ice in the first meter or so. Even in the first few inches.

The poles are all covered with Co2 ice, but on the fringes surrounding
the poles is a region of water ice. Which is where they landed.
So I think that's a slab of water ice with naturally bored holes.

The data supports a ...currently active...water cycle on Mars in
these areas. Which is what life needs. I believe the best conditions
for life would be where water transitions from water-ice-vapor
and back again. Not so much in any one of those realms, but where
the transition takes place. This landing site is looking better every
day. I'm getting psyched up!

Water Mass Map from Neutron Spectrometer
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ph...-20080513.html

ASU scientist finds Martian ice is patchy and variable

"The fact that ice is present near the depth of stability in the current
Martian climate shows that the ground ice is responding to
climate cycles," he says." "This implies that water ice in the ground
can swap places with water vapor in the atmosphere as the climate
changes, he says, adding:
"The THEMIS measurements support an active water cycle on Mars,
such as other research has predicted."
http://asunews.asu.edu/stories/20070...03_marsice.htm

It really didn't help that it took so long to get the soil sample into the
test chamber - any CO2 or water ice in it might have sublimated into the
atmosphere between the time it was scooped up and the time it finally got into
the test chamber days later.
Ideally, the soil sample goes into the test chamber within a few minutes after
the arm scoops it up, to preserve any volatile ices in it.
I still have grave doubts about it finding water ice, but would happily admit
to being wrong about this if firm proof of water ice is found, because of the
profound implications of such a finding.

Here's a really nice paper on the presumed history of water ice at
the Phoenix Mars landing site. Aptly named....

THE HISTORY OF ICE AT THE PHOENIX MARS
LANDING SITE
Lunar and Planetary Science XXXIX (2008) 1479

What's interesting is this statement below is about the age
of the ice.

"It is not reliably known when the last massive ice sheet
formed [14, 5, 6] or how humidity varies with time. In total,
four climate scenarios are simulated: Precipitation 5640 ka
ago and 632 ka ago (the most recent obliquity maximum with
~35 d) with constant humidity and time �varying humidity.
Figure 3 shows preliminary model results for the vertical
ice profile, if the last ice sheet formed 632 ka ago. The massive
ice sheet is much closer to the surface than it would be had
it last formed millions of years ago."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2008/pdf/1479.pdf

Not so old as we've been led to believe all this time.
Nearer the surface means younger. And if that is ice
they've photographed so close to the surface....it must
be very young. Since the soil is thought to build from
dust accumulation from the air.

Since other data indicates Mars is just now exiting
an ice age and warming, it may be the last warm
period with liquid water near the surface could have
have been that figure of 630,000 years ago.

Not billions, maybe not even millions of years ago.
And another thing, it's pretty clear from the much
greater lag deposit at the Phoenix site that it's a much
older surface than at Meridiani, which is pure soil
with hardly a rock to be found. That implies water
ice could have been at Meridiani even more recently.

I'm going with ...all the white stuff... is water ice.

Pat

Under what conditions does carbonated salt water stay frozen?

Also, frozen hydrogen peroxide is not entirely impossible.

kk

Why no mass spectrometer readings?

- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

"BradGuth" wrote
Why no mass spectrometer readings?

Give them time.

Water ice frost has been photographed on the surface of mars by various mars
landers. So the finding of water ice frost is nothing new. It does support
the idea that there is a large quantity of water ice below the surface
however - which is what the radar indicated.

BradGuth wrote:
On Jun 21, 9:22 pm, windbag wrote:
jonathan wrote:
"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
lephone...
George wrote:
NASA said today that the hole is directly beneath a thruster, and so is
probably the result of a thruster firing when the craft landed. They also
said that that might indicate that the slab is ice.
Or dry ice... I took a Bernz-O-Matic torch to water ice with very poor results
indeed, and the total time of the landing engine's impinging on the Martian
surface would be be very low, measured in a few seconds at most.
I was wondering about that. But I think they're going to find the white
slabs and material in the trench is indeed water ice. That area has
observations from the Odyssey orbiter showing from 30% to 60%
water ice in the first meter or so. Even in the first few inches.
The poles are all covered with Co2 ice, but on the fringes surrounding
the poles is a region of water ice. Which is where they landed.
So I think that's a slab of water ice with naturally bored holes.
The data supports a ...currently active...water cycle on Mars in
these areas. Which is what life needs. I believe the best conditions
for life would be where water transitions from water-ice-vapor
and back again. Not so much in any one of those realms, but where
the transition takes place. This landing site is looking better every
day. I'm getting psyched up!
Water Mass Map from Neutron Spectrometer
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ph...-20080513.html
ASU scientist finds Martian ice is patchy and variable
"The fact that ice is present near the depth of stability in the current
Martian climate shows that the ground ice is responding to
climate cycles," he says." "This implies that water ice in the ground
can swap places with water vapor in the atmosphere as the climate
changes, he says, adding:
"The THEMIS measurements support an active water cycle on Mars,
such as other research has predicted."
http://asunews.asu.edu/stories/20070...03_marsice.htm
It really didn't help that it took so long to get the soil sample into the
test chamber - any CO2 or water ice in it might have sublimated into the
atmosphere between the time it was scooped up and the time it finally got into
the test chamber days later.
Ideally, the soil sample goes into the test chamber within a few minutes after
the arm scoops it up, to preserve any volatile ices in it.
I still have grave doubts about it finding water ice, but would happily admit
to being wrong about this if firm proof of water ice is found, because of the
profound implications of such a finding.
Here's a really nice paper on the presumed history of water ice at
the Phoenix Mars landing site. Aptly named....
THE HISTORY OF ICE AT THE PHOENIX MARS
LANDING SITE
Lunar and Planetary Science XXXIX (2008) 1479
What's interesting is this statement below is about the age
of the ice.
"It is not reliably known when the last massive ice sheet
formed [14, 5, 6] or how humidity varies with time. In total,
four climate scenarios are simulated: Precipitation 5640 ka
ago and 632 ka ago (the most recent obliquity maximum with
~35 d) with constant humidity and time �varying humidity.
Figure 3 shows preliminary model results for the vertical
ice profile, if the last ice sheet formed 632 ka ago. The massive
ice sheet is much closer to the surface than it would be had
it last formed millions of years ago."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2008/pdf/1479.pdf
Not so old as we've been led to believe all this time.
Nearer the surface means younger. And if that is ice
they've photographed so close to the surface....it must
be very young. Since the soil is thought to build from
dust accumulation from the air.
Since other data indicates Mars is just now exiting
an ice age and warming, it may be the last warm
period with liquid water near the surface could have
have been that figure of 630,000 years ago.
Not billions, maybe not even millions of years ago.
And another thing, it's pretty clear from the much
greater lag deposit at the Phoenix site that it's a much
older surface than at Meridiani, which is pure soil
with hardly a rock to be found. That implies water
ice could have been at Meridiani even more recently.
I'm going with ...all the white stuff... is water ice.
Pat
Under what conditions does carbonated salt water stay frozen?

Also, frozen hydrogen peroxide is not entirely impossible.

kk

Why no mass spectrometer readings?

- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

because most americans are as stupid as bradguth. he would NEVER read
the data if they published it. he would make up his own, and ask for
some one else to write super computer graphics to prove it.

josephus
--
I go sailing in the summer
and look at stars in the winter,
"Everybody is ignorant but on different subjects"
--Will Rogers
Its not what you know that gets you in trouble
its what you know that aint so.
--josh billings.

Flat ice... Under a rocket thruster?

It would have sublimed away a long time ago.


"Pat Flannery" wrote
We talking dry ice or water ice here?
Temperature, heating by solar illumination, atmospheric pressure, and the
insulating properties of the soil over the ice all change its ability to
sublimate into the atmosphere.
Personally, I think there's nothing but CO2 "dry ice" there.
But, who knows?

Looks like it's water ice frost. Quite frankly I'm surprised at it's form
just under the surface of the sand.

Water ice frost has been photographed by landers on the surface of mars, so
it's not unprecedented. But clearly there is a large reservior of water
just under the surface in that region, just as the orbital obsrevations
suggested.

Congratulations to the scientists who built the orbiter.


"Pat Flannery" wrote
What interests me is the NASA "liquid water" ejections on the side of the
crater photos from around a year back.

The consensus opinion now, is that they were not caused by water but by
the collapse of a column of sand.

"Pat Flannery" wrote
At Mars surface temperatures, the triple point of CO2 needs only pressure
to allow CO2 to exist in a liquid form.. and those "water ejections" came
out of the side of the crater from around a hundred feet or more depth -
never on the surface.

I'm suspicious myself. Look at this image.

http://www.ufoarea.com/pictures/mars_comp_trees_veg.jpg



Also I would love to see close up photo's of these structures.
Ignore the web pages, they are just used as an image repository for my
purposes.


http://historyandmystery.homestead.c...Mars_trees.jpg

http://paranormal.about.com/library/..._trees1_lg.jpg

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgur...3Doff%26sa%3DN