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  #21  
Old June 30th 06, 08:28 AM posted to uk.sci.astronomy
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Default Higher Luminaries.

In message , Fleetie
writes
"Jonathan Silverlight" wrote
Isn't the point that Jupiter (and Saturn, only more so) is radiating
more energy than it receives? They both have internal
energy sources. Uranus, OTOH, is not radiating an excess.
IIRC, the Earth is currently radiating slightly _less_ energy than it
receives.


Interesting point, but if Earth were radiating less energy than it received,
wouldn't that mean it was warming up?

Global warming aside, cos I think that's a separate issue really, I
would definitely expect Earth to be _cooling_ (still), albeit very
slowly.


Fair enough.

There's heat remaining from Earth's formation (a lot), and
there's heat from nuclear fission inside the planet.


I think most people would argue with it being nuclear fission, unless
they believe in J Marvin Herndon's "georeactor" :-) Radioactive decay is
the usual suspect.

And, I guess,
heat from gravitational tidal forces, mainly from the Sun and the Moon.

What about Uranus then? Are you saying you think it is at thermal
equilibrium with its surroundings? (I don't know whether it is or
not.) But again, intuition suggests to me that it probably still has
residual heat to lose from its formation, and therefore probably is
doing so, which by your definition would make it net luminous.

Intesesting one. I still don't think it's as easy as people say, to
say some planets (or whatever bodies) are "luminous" and imply that
the rest aren't.

But I think that's exactly what you can say :-) Jupiter and Saturn are
radiating an excess which is detectable by remote sensing, and Uranus
isn't. And while you probably can't tell if the Earth is cooling or not
except by measurement on the ground, it's intensely luminous at radio
wavelengths!
  #22  
Old June 30th 06, 11:51 AM posted to alt.english.usage,uk.sci.astronomy
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Default Higher Luminaries.


Sjouke Burry wrote:
Phineas T Puddleduck wrote:
In article .com,
Weatherlawyer wrote:

You do realise that nuclear reactions of any sort have never been
observed on any star, don't you?


So what powers one?


Knowing (or it would seem: think I knew) that there had ben no observed
proof of a theory does not mean that I have proof of an alternative.

There again of couse it does allow me to have an alternative theory. In
fact the more alternative theories there are, the more likely that we
will not be misdirected entirely through believing just one erroneous
one.*

And how do you explain the neutrino flood emitting from the sun.
Each neutrino means some nuclear reaction has taken place.
No reactions, no neutrinos.


You know that for a fact? Or is this an ancillary theory extemporised
to allow its adjacent to go through unopposed?

*OT as this is an exemplar gratis and not a topic for discussion (by me
at least) no doubt a number of monkeys will start rattling branches and
repeating their mantras until they once again establish their faith as
the acme of logical deduction:

Consider the one theory doesn't fit any species known as evolution. No
one particular brand can be seen to work. And none can be proven by
reproduction. Yet most non thinkers believe that there is the one
theory that ALL subscribe to called THE theory of evolution.

Consider one small point in the now defunct Darwinian theory about
finches:
Because they lived on different islands, they developed different seed
opening beaks.

Did no 19th century agriculturalist point out that on any island, a
wide variety of seed would likely be available to all and that any
finch stupid enough to concentrate on one particular variety would die
out in the 11 months or so, that such seed was unavailable?

It was utter twaddle and yet widely touted as a fact. Which left any
disbelievers of the theory in the unenviable position of having to
disprove it in order to continue believing the alternative, more
sensible ones.

  #23  
Old June 30th 06, 11:53 AM posted to alt.english.usage,uk.sci.astronomy
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Default Higher Luminaries.

In article . com,
Weatherlawyer wrote:

Sjouke Burry wrote:
Phineas T Puddleduck wrote:
In article .com,
Weatherlawyer wrote:

You do realise that nuclear reactions of any sort have never been
observed on any star, don't you?

So what powers one?


Knowing (or it would seem: think I knew) that there had ben no observed
proof of a theory does not mean that I have proof of an alternative.

There again of couse it does allow me to have an alternative theory. In
fact the more alternative theories there are, the more likely that we
will not be misdirected entirely through believing just one erroneous
one.*

And how do you explain the neutrino flood emitting from the sun.
Each neutrino means some nuclear reaction has taken place.
No reactions, no neutrinos.


You know that for a fact? Or is this an ancillary theory extemporised
to allow its adjacent to go through unopposed?


Neutrino observations?

*OT as this is an exemplar gratis and not a topic for discussion (by me
at least) no doubt a number of monkeys will start rattling branches and
repeating their mantras until they once again establish their faith as
the acme of logical deduction:

Consider the one theory doesn't fit any species known as evolution. No
one particular brand can be seen to work. And none can be proven by
reproduction. Yet most non thinkers believe that there is the one
theory that ALL subscribe to called THE theory of evolution.

Consider one small point in the now defunct Darwinian theory about
finches:
Because they lived on different islands, they developed different seed
opening beaks.

Did no 19th century agriculturalist point out that on any island, a
wide variety of seed would likely be available to all and that any
finch stupid enough to concentrate on one particular variety would die
out in the 11 months or so, that such seed was unavailable?

It was utter twaddle and yet widely touted as a fact. Which left any
disbelievers of the theory in the unenviable position of having to
disprove it in order to continue believing the alternative, more
sensible ones.



AH so you're an idiot then. You used a lot of words, but all it did was
reveal your stupidity

--
The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.

e=pc / p=hk

Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orangey jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson why
parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology.

Official emperor of sci.physics, head mumbler of the "Cult of INSANE SCIENCE".
Please pay no attention to my butt poking forward, it is expanding.

Relf's Law?
"Bull**** repeated to the limit of infinity asymptotically approaches
the odour of roses."

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  #24  
Old June 30th 06, 11:59 AM posted to alt.english.usage,uk.sci.astronomy,alt.usenet.kooks
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Posts: n/a
Default Higher Luminaries.

In article . com,
Weatherlawyer wrote:

Sjouke Burry wrote:
Phineas T Puddleduck wrote:
In article .com,
Weatherlawyer wrote:

You do realise that nuclear reactions of any sort have never been
observed on any star, don't you?

So what powers one?


Knowing (or it would seem: think I knew) that there had ben no observed
proof of a theory does not mean that I have proof of an alternative.

There again of couse it does allow me to have an alternative theory. In
fact the more alternative theories there are, the more likely that we
will not be misdirected entirely through believing just one erroneous
one.*

And how do you explain the neutrino flood emitting from the sun.
Each neutrino means some nuclear reaction has taken place.
No reactions, no neutrinos.


You know that for a fact? Or is this an ancillary theory extemporised
to allow its adjacent to go through unopposed?

*OT as this is an exemplar gratis and not a topic for discussion (by me
at least) no doubt a number of monkeys will start rattling branches and
repeating their mantras until they once again establish their faith as
the acme of logical deduction:

Consider the one theory doesn't fit any species known as evolution. No
one particular brand can be seen to work. And none can be proven by
reproduction. Yet most non thinkers believe that there is the one
theory that ALL subscribe to called THE theory of evolution.

Consider one small point in the now defunct Darwinian theory about
finches:
Because they lived on different islands, they developed different seed
opening beaks.

Did no 19th century agriculturalist point out that on any island, a
wide variety of seed would likely be available to all and that any
finch stupid enough to concentrate on one particular variety would die
out in the 11 months or so, that such seed was unavailable?

It was utter twaddle and yet widely touted as a fact. Which left any
disbelievers of the theory in the unenviable position of having to
disprove it in order to continue believing the alternative, more
sensible ones.



We got a live one here.

--
The greatest enemy of science is pseudoscience.

e=pc / p=hk

Jaffa cakes. Sweet delicious orangey jaffa goodness, and an abject lesson why
parroting information from the web will not teach you cosmology.

Official emperor of sci.physics, head mumbler of the "Cult of INSANE SCIENCE".
Please pay no attention to my butt poking forward, it is expanding.

Relf's Law?
"Bull**** repeated to the limit of infinity asymptotically approaches
the odour of roses."

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  #25  
Old June 30th 06, 09:35 PM posted to alt.english.usage,uk.sci.astronomy
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Posts: n/a
Default Higher Luminaries.

Mike Williams wrote in
:

Wasn't it Gene E. Bloch who wrote:

We have discovered new objects larger than Pluto circling our own
star. They are Kuyper Belt objects with orbits beyond that of
Pluto, and as I recall, there are already two of them known to be
larger than Pluto.

So far, I don't want to demote Pluto, and I don't want to accept
the new ones as planets.


I'd imagine most people would be happy with that if we could
produce a sensible objective definition of "planet" that gives
that result and can also be used when we start to observe Pluto
sized objects in other solar systems.

The problem is that any sensible criterion would be expected to
either include both Pluto and 2003-UB313 and some other large KBOs
that are only fractionally smaller, or exclude them all. The only
thing that Pluto has going for it, that 2003-UB313 doesn't, is
history.


Yeah. And as we know, history counts. Press coverage does too.

Also, Clyde Tombaugh, from all I've read, was a really nice guy, and
reasonably modest. He deserves a planet :-)

In truth, I don't think it matters much what the Pluto-sized
objects, Pluto included, get called, and I suspect that the IAU
might end up with a classification scheme that is a bit fuzzy in
that size range. Conservative thinking will rule: Pluto's already a
planet, but the other ones are far away, cold, and dark, and they're
just parvenus anyway.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Gino) ... letters617blochg3251
(replace the numbers by "at" and "dotcom")
  #26  
Old July 1st 06, 09:06 AM posted to alt.english.usage,uk.sci.astronomy
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Posts: n/a
Default Higher Luminaries.


Gene E. Bloch wrote:

Also, Clyde Tombaugh, from all I've read, was a really nice guy, and
reasonably modest. He deserves a planet :-)


I think that someone being a nice guy is about the worst reason
considered so far for calling Pluto a planet. OTOH, what is to be done
for all the conceited buffoons intent on taking me to task for having
one or two opinions that they can't get their heads around?

Un name them? Disenfranchise their spheres?

In truth, I don't think it matters much what the Pluto-sized objects, Pluto included,
get called, and I suspect that the IAU might end up with a classification scheme
that is a bit fuzzy in that size range.


Quite so. They are a long way from home. Even our great, great, grand
children will hold that opinion, no doubt.

Conservative thinking will rule: Pluto's already a planet, but the other ones are far
away, cold, and dark, and they're just parvenus anyway.


One major problem is that Christendom has run out of western pagan gods
to name them. Which begs the question: How international is the IAU?

Since the Kuiper belt seems to occupy the abode that Bode's law would
indicate holds the next planetary orbit after Uranus, would that put
Neptune in the spot as the largest asteroid so far known?

And what is the next distance out that fits in the law? Is there
anything at that (what is the term?) orbital distance?

  #27  
Old July 5th 06, 02:11 AM posted to alt.english.usage,uk.sci.astronomy
Gene E. Bloch
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Default Higher Luminaries.

On 7/01/2006, Weatherlawyer posted this:
Gene E. Bloch wrote:

Also, Clyde Tombaugh, from all I've read, was a really nice guy, and
reasonably modest. He deserves a planet :-)


I think that someone being a nice guy is about the worst reason
considered so far for calling Pluto a planet. OTOH, what is to be done
for all the conceited buffoons intent on taking me to task for having
one or two opinions that they can't get their heads around?

Un name them? Disenfranchise their spheres?


I think you're just being silly in the above two paragraphs...I believe
that "nice guy" is a great reason, and I think those "conceited
buffoons" believe that the one having trouble with various ideas is
you. I know that I do.

In truth, I don't think it matters much what the Pluto-sized objects, Pluto
included, get called, and I suspect that the IAU might end up with a
classification scheme that is a bit fuzzy in that size range.


Quite so. They are a long way from home. Even our great, great, grand
children will hold that opinion, no doubt.

Conservative thinking will rule: Pluto's already a planet, but the other
ones are far away, cold, and dark, and they're just parvenus anyway.


One major problem is that Christendom has run out of western pagan gods
to name them. Which begs the question: How international is the IAU?


Begs the question? It has no relationship to the question. It is the
IAU that names astronomical objects, not Christendom.

The IAU is very international, more so than World Cup Soccer/Football.

Since the Kuiper belt seems to occupy the abode that Bode's law would
indicate holds the next planetary orbit after Uranus, would that put
Neptune in the spot as the largest asteroid so far known?


Bode's law is not a law, but an approximate relationship that Bode and
Titius noted a while back (latter 18th century).

It calls for an empty space where Neptune is; Pluto fills the slot
after Uranus.

The Kuiper Belt is a belt - at 30 to 50 AU, it is far wider than the
narrow zone that Bode's law would imply (which would be at ~40 AU,
Pluto's neighborhood). Also, objects well beyond the 50 AU distance are
known. (I misspelled Kuiper in another post in this thread - life's
tough.)

And what is the next distance out that fits in the law? Is there
anything at that (what is the term?) orbital distance?


After 38.8 (Pluto) would come 77.2. The Oort cloud is expected to be
out in light year territory, or around 50000 AU, extending to even
twice that, so it has no cozy relationship to 77 AU.

I had to check a bit with the aid of Google to get some numbers about
Oort and Kuiper, but as a result, I trust what I said above better than
my unaided memory would have provided. Of course, I didn't try to be
accurate to the nearest kilometer.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Gino)
letters617blochg3251
(replace the numbers by "at" and "dotcom")


  #28  
Old July 5th 06, 07:56 AM posted to alt.english.usage,uk.sci.astronomy
Odysseus[_1_]
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Posts: 534
Default Higher Luminaries.

In article ,
Gene E. Bloch wrote:

On 7/01/2006, Weatherlawyer posted this:


snip

And what is the next distance out that fits in [Bode's] law? Is there
anything at that (what is the term?) orbital distance?


After 38.8 (Pluto) would come 77.2. The Oort cloud is expected to be
out in light year territory, or around 50000 AU, extending to even
twice that, so it has no cozy relationship to 77 AU.


The object provisionally designated 2003 UB313, but nicknamed "Xena"
while it awaits an official name and number, averages about 68 AU. 90377
Sedna's perihelion is about 76 AU, but its mean distance from the Sun is
more like 500 AU. They also have highly inclined orbits. These minor
planets, well beyond the Kuiper Belt, are classified as "Scattered-Disk
Objects".

--
Odysseus
  #29  
Old July 5th 06, 05:17 PM posted to alt.english.usage,uk.sci.astronomy
Weatherlawyer
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Posts: 79
Default Higher Luminaries.


Odysseus wrote:
In article ,
Gene E. Bloch ignoring the title of this thread, wrote:

After 38.8 (Pluto) would come 77.2. The Oort cloud is expected to be
out in light year territory, or around 50000 AU, extending to even
twice that, so it has no cozy relationship to 77 AU.


The object provisionally designated 2003 UB313, but nicknamed "Xena"
while it awaits an official name and number, averages about 68 AU. 90377
Sedna's perihelion is about 76 AU, but its mean distance from the Sun is
more like 500 AU. They also have highly inclined orbits. These minor
planets, beyond the Kuiper Belt, are classified as "Scattered-Disk Objects".


In so many years from now when there aare decent research vehicle up
there (once we get rid of the Texas Maffia) maybe we will come to know
more about the Titius Bode thing.

The trouble with self contented Geneii is that they think in terms of
averages where astrometry is a little more precise. There are reams of
pages of these newly discovered outer space objects.

Who is to say where the point of balance is if they were all pulled
together.

  #30  
Old July 6th 06, 01:10 AM posted to alt.english.usage,uk.sci.astronomy
Gene E. Bloch
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Posts: 5
Default Higher Luminaries.

On 7/05/2006, Weatherlawyer posted this:

....

In so many years from now when there aare decent research vehicle up
there (once we get rid of the Texas Maffia) maybe we will come to know
more about the Titius Bode thing.


We know all there is to know about "the Titius Bode thing". It is a
formula that encapsulated the observed distances of the planets into a
simple and approximate relationship of no physical significance. It was
not at all accurate when it was proposed, and fell apart rather quickly
as more planets were discovered in our system.

The trouble with self contented Geneii is that they think in terms of
averages where astrometry is a little more precise. There are reams of
pages of these newly discovered outer space objects.


What are Geneii? It seems not to be a word in English or Latin.

Astrometry is relatively precise these days, now that we have very
accurate satellite-borne telescopes and huge radio telescope
interferometers, but what has that to do with our attempts to find
Kuiper and Oort objects?

Quite often, astronomers are very happy to estimate some of the numbers
they care about within a factor of two.

Who is to say where the point of balance is if they were all pulled
together.


Obviously the point of balance - if you mean the centroid of these
objects - is at or very near the sun. If you literally mean "if they
were all pulled together", then the point of balance is the point we
pull them together to. But I still can't ascribe any useful meaning to
your remark.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Gino)
letters617blochg3251
(replace the numbers by "at" and "dotcom")


 




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