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Germany in space
Hi,
Today I saw in Pima Air & Space Museum two names, new to me. In the Space Exploratorium there is small booth Germany(means nazi Germany) in Space, with models of America Bomber of Eugene Sander and manned rocket of Erich Bachen. Anyone knows something specific about these 2 greatest engineers? Will appreciate any links and sources. Regards, Alex |
#2
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Germany in space
Alex wrote: Hi, Today I saw in Pima Air & Space Museum two names, new to me. In the Space Exploratorium there is small booth Germany(means nazi Germany) in Space, with models of America Bomber of Eugene Sander and manned rocket of Erich Bachen. Anyone knows something specific about these 2 greatest engineers? Will appreciate any links and sources. Regards, Antipodal Bomber: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbervogel http://www.luft46.com/misc/sanger.html Here's his report on the antipodal bomber in pdf format: http://www.astronautix.com/data/saenger.pdf Bachem Ba-349 "Natter": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachem_Ba_349 http://www.fantasyofflight.com/aircraftpages/natter.htm (I'm pretty sure that instrument in the center of the control panel is part of the automated guidance system for ascent. I assume you are supposed to keep a marker centered inside the cross hairs as the ground radar controllers direct you toward the target bombers.) http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero...t/bachemba.htm The fun thing about the Natter is how the pilot gets out of it and the end of his flight. He pulls a lever and everything in front of his seat falls away; then he unbuckles his seatbelt, reaches down and pulls the control stick out of its mounting and throws that away, then pulls another lever that deploys a parachute at the back of the plane...causing him to be hurled free as it slows down. Finally he opens his own parachute and descends separately from the rest of the aircraft. :-) Pat |
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Germany in space
On Jan 28, 2:43 am, Pat Flannery wrote: Alex wrote: Hi, Today I saw in Pima Air & Space Museum two names, new to me. In the Space Exploratorium there is small booth Germany(means nazi Germany) in Space, with models of America Bomber of Eugene Sander and manned rocket of Erich Bachen. Anyone knows something specific about these 2 greatest engineers? Will appreciate any links and sources. Regards,Antipodal Bomber:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silberv...sc/sanger.html Here's his report on the antipodal bomber in pdf format:http://www.astronautix.com/data/saenger.pdf Bachem Ba-349 "Natter":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachem_...ges/natter.htm (I'm pretty sure that instrument in the center of the control panel is part of the automated guidance system for ascent. I assume you are supposed to keep a marker centered inside the cross hairs as the ground radar controllers direct you toward the target bombers.)http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero...t/bachemba.htm The fun thing about the Natter is how the pilot gets out of it and the end of his flight. He pulls a lever and everything in front of his seat falls away; then he unbuckles his seatbelt, reaches down and pulls the control stick out of its mounting and throws that away, then pulls another lever that deploys a parachute at the back of the plane...causing him to be hurled free as it slows down. Finally he opens his own parachute and descends separately from the rest of the aircraft. :-) Pat Pat, Thanks for the story and links. Simple misspelling stopped my search. Do you know anything about other von Braun team members? Museum mentions 'few dozens', but no names and why von Braun selected them to join him in Germany and in El Paso? Thanks, Alex |
#4
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Germany in space
Alex wrote: Pat, Thanks for the story and links. Simple misspelling stopped my search. Neither Sanger or Bachem worked for the Peenemunde von Braun team; in fact, Sanger was in direct competition with von Braun's crew for funding and resource allocation. Do you know anything about other von Braun team members? Museum mentions 'few dozens', but no names and why von Braun selected them to join him in Germany and in El Paso? We got our hands on a whole slew of German scientists at the end of WW II and moved them to the U.S. under Operation Paperclip. They had a major influence on lots of our military programs, particularly in the fields of aeronautics and rocketry. Including von Braun, there were 118 former German scientists working at Fort Bliss alone. Actually it was the Pentagon and American intelligence services, along with some help from the FBI, who pretty well decided who was going where, and if they were coming to the U.S. at all. It was a case of perceived value of an individual against what their political and military history had been during the war; they could pull quite a few strings in this regard if the individual was thought very important, but there was an upper limit to what was politically possible. A lot of the von Braun team and their friends went on to popularize space exploration to the American public in the 1950s. Notable examples were Willy Ley, Fredrick Ordway, Krafft Ehricke, and Ernst Stuhlinger; who did this both in their writings and as employees of major American aerospace firms after becoming citizens. Von Braun and his team's Collier's Magazine articles and their work with Disney on the "Man In Space" series of shows were particularly important in this regard. Pat |
#5
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Germany in space
On Jan 28, 1:24 pm, Pat Flannery wrote: Alex wrote: Pat, Thanks for the story and links. Simple misspelling stopped my search.Neither Sanger or Bachem worked for the Peenemunde von Braun team; in fact, Sanger was in direct competition with von Braun's crew for funding and resource allocation. Do you know anything about other von Braun team members? Museum mentions 'few dozens', but no names and why von Braun selected them to join him in Germany and in El Paso?We got our hands on a whole slew of German scientists at the end of WW II and moved them to the U.S. under Operation Paperclip. They had a major influence on lots of our military programs, particularly in the fields of aeronautics and rocketry. Including von Braun, there were 118 former German scientists working at Fort Bliss alone. Actually it was the Pentagon and American intelligence services, along with some help from the FBI, who pretty well decided who was going where, and if they were coming to the U.S. at all. It was a case of perceived value of an individual against what their political and military history had been during the war; they could pull quite a few strings in this regard if the individual was thought very important, but there was an upper limit to what was politically possible. A lot of the von Braun team and their friends went on to popularize space exploration to the American public in the 1950s. Notable examples were Willy Ley, Fredrick Ordway, Krafft Ehricke, and Ernst Stuhlinger; who did this both in their writings and as employees of major American aerospace firms after becoming citizens. Von Braun and his team's Collier's Magazine articles and their work with Disney on the "Man In Space" series of shows were particularly important in this regard. Pat Pat, You intrigued me. I didn't expect the FBI involvements, but I did expect intelligence, like the CIA or how that called that time, did some selection. I guessed von Braun role was a project manager and the system designer, but some other his teammates did care about propellant research, navigation and control (real time control and remote one), material science, etc. Von Braun became the most recognizable person from the greatest team of rocket researchers and engineers, I want to know about other brilliant people and about their genius minds to select/invent/implement such technical things like rocket control at lift off time and on its way into space. I don't believe into von Braun genius to design everything by him, but I believe into brilliant minds of dozens of his teammates and I have a great interest to know who was responsible for what in his team and what product actually was delivered by that engineer. I even don't know what kind of major took von Braun and his teammates in Universities. I guess majority of his guys were the DSP engineers, not physicists. Am I wrong? It is interesting, how people jumped into the area where they didn't have a formal training and they delivered the solutions what became an engineering classic. Unfortunately, many of these brilliant minds are forgotten now in favor of their great boss, Dr von Braun. I expect, all space research work in 1940x-1960x is not a secret anymore and, I guess, someone spent some great and fun time to describe a real history, based on documents, how a Human bean attacked the space travel task and who specifically delivered components needed to the trip. Thanks, Alex |
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Germany in space
Alex wrote: Von Braun became the most recognizable person from the greatest team of rocket researchers and engineers, I want to know about other brilliant people and about their genius minds to select/invent/implement such technical things like rocket control at lift off time and on its way into space. I don't believe into von Braun genius to design everything by him, but I believe into brilliant minds of dozens of his teammates and I have a great interest to know who was responsible for what in his team and what product actually was delivered by that engineer. Okay everybody, if this was about just Peenemunde or the Soviet effort, I might be able to take a crack at it, but my major interest has always been the machines, not the personalities behind them. So anybody out there who knows who exactly did what in regards to the German scientists at Peenemunde and in our postwar rocket program? Von Braun's real gift was that he was a very good rocket engineer who had enough knowledge in all the various aspects of rocket design that he could understand what specialists in each specific aspect were talking about, and form a group of individual specialists into a cohesive whole that heading in the desired direction with all the pieces linking up correctly, rather than everything falling apart into disorganized chaos. People who knew him said he was a pretty good scientist, but one of the most superb managers you have ever met. In that respect he reminded a lot of people of the head of the U.S. Atomic Bomb effort, J. Robert Oppenheimer. He was also an excellent public speaker, (and maybe just a little bit of a con-man) and that didn't hurt when he was arguing for funds for his projects. :-) Pat |
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Germany in space
On Jan 28, 6:32 pm, Pat Flannery wrote: Alex wrote: Von Braun became the most recognizable person from the greatest team of rocket researchers and engineers, I want to know about other brilliant people and about their genius minds to select/invent/implement such technical things like rocket control at lift off time and on its way into space. I don't believe into von Braun genius to design everything by him, but I believe into brilliant minds of dozens of his teammates and I have a great interest to know who was responsible for what in his team and what product actually was delivered by that engineer.Okay everybody, if this was about just Peenemunde or the Soviet effort, I might be able to take a crack at it, but my major interest has always been the machines, not the personalities behind them. So anybody out there who knows who exactly did what in regards to the German scientists at Peenemunde and in our postwar rocket program? Von Braun's real gift was that he was a very good rocket engineer who had enough knowledge in all the various aspects of rocket design that he could understand what specialists in each specific aspect were talking about, and form a group of individual specialists into a cohesive whole that heading in the desired direction with all the pieces linking up correctly, rather than everything falling apart into disorganized chaos. People who knew him said he was a pretty good scientist, but one of the most superb managers you have ever met. In that respect he reminded a lot of people of the head of the U.S. Atomic Bomb effort, J. Robert Oppenheimer. He was also an excellent public speaker, (and maybe just a little bit of a con-man) and that didn't hurt when he was arguing for funds for his projects. :-) Pat Pat, You get my question. I think, it is interesting for everyone to know who did what in Germany-America space launch. Now I know, German engineers were selected from 2 different and competing design shops. For some reason, favor was given for Dr. von Braun, probebly because he proved his rocket design managment skill and 'an excellent public speaker' skill for Hitler.How other engineers were selected to continue their work in the US? Do they really 'the cream' of these 2 competing space design shops or some human sympathy or political considerations plyed some role? If so, what happened with talants outside of work circle and with not talanted guys taken for the job? Who specificly designed components for the A-4 and the US space vehicle? How they did that? Awhile ago I surprised myself to recognize that all Russian rocket designers get University training in aerodynamics and aviation, they should be very familiar with problems in physics and chemistry. The focus of German engineering at that time was not in physics but in control theory and control applications, as one of my source said. Is it true? I have no idea what was the main research focus of American rocketers in 1940x. Any one knows? Regards, Alex |
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Germany in space
On 28 Jan 2007 20:54:34 -0800, "Alex"
wrote: I have no idea what was the main research focus of American rocketers in 1940x. Any one knows? ....Focusing past ridicule while trying to acquire funds, natch. OM -- ]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[ |
#9
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Germany in space
Alex wrote: Pat, You get my question. I think, it is interesting for everyone to know who did what in Germany-America space launch. Now I know, German engineers were selected from 2 different and competing design shops. That's way too simple for anything involving Nazi Germany. There were a whole bunch of competing firms working on things at the same time, generally in competition with each other, and most of the time with very little idea what the other groups were up to. They had at least four groups working on atomic power and bombs, including one atomic bomb project being run by the German Post Office. The Rheinbote solid-fueled long range missile was being developed as a competitor to the V-2 by Rheinmetall-Borsig, and not only did the Peenemunde team have little knowledge of it, but the German government didn't know of it at the beginning. Sanger had gotten his hands on the largest liquid oxygen tank in the Reich, and was working on his rocket ideas in direct competition with Peenemunde, but with a far smaller team. Dr. Zippermeyer was working on a vortex cannon to shoot airplanes out of the sky with slugs of compressed air. Messerschmidt was developing the Enzian SAM, Henschel was developing the Schmetterling SAM, Rheinmetall-Borsig was developing the Rheinbote SAM, and Peenemunde was developing the Wasserfall SAM.... all with very little input from the other design teams. For some reason, favor was given for Dr. von Braun, probebly because he proved his rocket design managment skill and 'an excellent public speaker' skill for Hitler.How other engineers were selected to continue their work in the US? Do they really 'the cream' of these 2 competing space design shops or some human sympathy or political considerations plyed some role? In a nutshell, The U.S. got the design brains of the Peenemunde team, and the Soviets got the production related scientists. Sanger headed for France, where the Soviets tried to locate him to convince him to come to work for them (by force if necessary) but couldn't locate him, even though he was in the phone book under his real name..because their agents took a real fondness to the Paris nightclub scene, and decided that watching the can-can dancers at the Moulin Rouge was far more fun than looking for a German rocket scientist. If so, what happened with talants outside of work circle and with not talanted guys taken for the job? Well, here's what happened...Peenemunde was in the agreed-upon Soviet zone of occupation, so before they got there, the U.S. had its troops sneak in under "Special Mission V-2" and grab everything and everyone who wasn't bolted down, and drag them into our zone of occupation, including von Braun and his team, and a whole pile of V-2s...as well as all the secret design and experimental projects paperwork on all of Peenemunde's projects. The scientists were then brought to the U.S. under "Operation Overcast" which later became "Operation Paperclip": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip What was left over was grabbed by the Soviets, who set up a design bureau in East Germany where the scientists the U.S. didn't get got to continue their work under Helmut Gottrup, who had turned down our offer to come to Fort Bliss... until one night when the Soviets held a big party for them (Bolsheviks are all about big parties), got them drunk, and then kidnapped them and their families and dragged them off to Russia and the island of Gorodomliya, northwest of Moscow. There they picked them clean of all the data they had in their heads at a new design bureau set up specificly for them, then let them return to East Germany in the late 40's and early 50's once the Soviet rocket and missile programs were up to speed. Pat |
#10
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Germany in space
On Jan 29, 7:57 am, Pat Flannery wrote: Alex wrote: Pat, You get my question. I think, it is interesting for everyone to know who did what in Germany-America space launch. Now I know, German engineers were selected from 2 different and competing design shops.That's way too simple for anything involving Nazi Germany. There were a whole bunch of competing firms working on things at the same time, generally in competition with each other, and most of the time with very little idea what the other groups were up to. They had at least four groups working on atomic power and bombs, including one atomic bomb project being run by the German Post Office. The Rheinbote solid-fueled long range missile was being developed as a competitor to the V-2 by Rheinmetall-Borsig, and not only did the Peenemunde team have little knowledge of it, but the German government didn't know of it at the beginning. Sanger had gotten his hands on the largest liquid oxygen tank in the Reich, and was working on his rocket ideas in direct competition with Peenemunde, but with a far smaller team. Dr. Zippermeyer was working on a vortex cannon to shoot airplanes out of the sky with slugs of compressed air. Messerschmidt was developing the Enzian SAM, Henschel was developing the Schmetterling SAM, Rheinmetall-Borsig was developing the Rheinbote SAM, and Peenemunde was developing the Wasserfall SAM.... all with very little input from the other design teams. For some reason, favor was given for Dr. von Braun, probebly because he proved his rocket design managment skill and 'an excellent public speaker' skill for Hitler.How other engineers were selected to continue their work in the US? Do they really 'the cream' of these 2 competing space design shops or some human sympathy or political considerations plyed some role?In a nutshell, The U.S. got the design brains of the Peenemunde team, and the Soviets got the production related scientists. Sanger headed for France, where the Soviets tried to locate him to convince him to come to work for them (by force if necessary) but couldn't locate him, even though he was in the phone book under his real name..because their agents took a real fondness to the Paris nightclub scene, and decided that watching the can-can dancers at the Moulin Rouge was far more fun than looking for a German rocket scientist. If so, what happened with talants outside of work circle and with not talanted guys taken for the job?Well, here's what happened...Peenemunde was in the agreed-upon Soviet zone of occupation, so before they got there, the U.S. had its troops sneak in under "Special Mission V-2" and grab everything and everyone who wasn't bolted down, and drag them into our zone of occupation, including von Braun and his team, and a whole pile of V-2s...as well as all the secret design and experimental projects paperwork on all of Peenemunde's projects. The scientists were then brought to the U.S. under "Operation Overcast" which later became "Operation Paperclip":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip What was left over was grabbed by the Soviets, who set up a design bureau in East Germany where the scientists the U.S. didn't get got to continue their work under Helmut Gottrup, who had turned down our offer to come to Fort Bliss... until one night when the Soviets held a big party for them (Bolsheviks are all about big parties), got them drunk, and then kidnapped them and their families and dragged them off to Russia and the island of Gorodomliya, northwest of Moscow. There they picked them clean of all the data they had in their heads at a new design bureau set up specificly for them, then let them return to East Germany in the late 40's and early 50's once the Soviet rocket and missile programs were up to speed. Pat Pat, A lot of new names! Thanks for the big picture about space research in Germany. Looks like if Nazi could be more organized and more disciplined then they were in WW II they could change the war path. I mean, if they could follow by the US example, when all greatest nuclear minds worked for one project only, the Manhattan project, who knows how history could be alternated. Interesting to find more details about those tens (hundreds?) German companies involved in the space run, about people who runs so advanced projects, about their greatest achievements that time and what was an obstacle, they were not able to overrun quickly before the end of the War. I'm going to look for names Pat mentioned, I want to know more details about each company specific contribution into space run. So far, my 1st discovery is about Helmut Gottrup. Accordingly http://www.spaceline.org/history/ 6.html and http://www.beaconschool.org/departments/history/docs/ 11historypaper2.pdf, Helmut Gottrup and his team involvements into Russian space run had been very limited - they helped Russian to re- build the V-2 rocket for their own research and prototyping. No sources I found to prove Dr. Helmut Gottrup involvements into other aspects of Soviet space exploration. I see in this small example how different was the US approach to the space run from the USSR technology. The US entirely relied on imported German genius and Russian used Germans very limited to relay on its own talents. Will look for other names and details. Alex |
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