PG&E signs deal for first space-based solar farm

PG&E signs deal for first space-based solar farm
http://greenwombat.blogs.fortune.cnn...ed-solar-farm/


The article says "PG&E won't spend any money until Solaren beams down
electricity", so PG&E doesn't seem to be taking on much risk in this
venture.


I've never heard of Solaren, the company which is supposedly going to build
the "space based solar farm".

http://www.solarenspace.com/

I couldn't get their website to do anything. Weird that such a "high tech"
company woudn't have much of a web presence...

Jeff
--
"Many things that were acceptable in 1958 are no longer acceptable today.
My own standards have changed too." -- Freeman Dyson

On 14 Apr, 19:54, "Jeff Findley" wrote:
PG&E signs deal for first space-based solar farmhttp://greenwombat.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/04/13/pge-signs-deal-fo...



“Space Solar Power hoax/illusion DEBUNKED” article

http://www.ghostnasa.com/posts/038sspdebunked.html

..

On Apr 14, 10:54*am, "Jeff Findley"
wrote:
PG&E signs deal for first space-based solar farmhttp://greenwombat.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/04/13/pge-signs-deal-fo...

The article says "PG&E won't spend any money until Solaren beams down
electricity", so PG&E doesn't seem to be taking on much risk in this
venture.

I've never heard of Solaren, the company which is supposedly going to build
the "space based solar farm".

http://www.solarenspace.com/

I couldn't get their website to do anything. *Weird that such a "high tech"
company woudn't have much of a web presence...

Jeff
--
"Many things that were acceptable in 1958 are no longer acceptable today.
My own standards have changed too." *-- Freeman Dyson

At $1/kwhr in wholesale bulk, selling this SBSF form of clean energy
may become their biggest challenge, although eventually it might
almost offset the global polluting and substantial resources drained
by having accomplished the satellite and terrestrial based
infrastructure to begin with.

Perhaps PG&E should be in contact with our William Mook that'll
deliver his SPS derived IR energy at a mere few cents per kwhr, and
eventually at less than a cent per kwhr. Though it's still kind of
the same thing, whereas it's all pretty much hocus-pocus words of
technological hype and otherwise obfuscation, at no actual past,
resent nor future investment risk (other than personal time) by way of
Mook himself.

~ BG

"BradGuth" wrote in message
...

This article brings a tear to my eye~

At $1/kwhr in wholesale bulk, selling this SBSF form of clean energy
may become their biggest challenge,

A big advantage of SSP is that it could be serve 'specialty' markets.
Say providing energy at peak prices, or for difficult locations.
It doesn't have to compete directly with conventional power plants.

Reinventing the Solar Power Satellite
Geoffrey A. Landis

"Even higher revenue could be achieved if the solar power satellite
could service the spot market, where instantaneous price of
electricity can, for brief periods, rise to an order of magnitude
higher than the peak-power cost. This would require a power
satellite with the ability to switch beams from one ground
location to a different ground location rapidly."
http://www.nss.org/settlement/ssp/li...rSatellite.pdf



although eventually it might
almost offset the global polluting and substantial resources drained
by having accomplished the satellite and terrestrial based
infrastructure to begin with.

Here's the thing about SSP that I keep going on about.
The prerequisites for Space Solar Power are many, starting
with a ground based solar infrastructure that has to come first.
The two compliment each other, not compete according
to the study above. It would also require low cost to orbit
space ports ect etc. All the basic infrastructure needed to
produce a true space-faring ability are needed for SSP.

By using SSP as the driving force for all this infrastructure, we
are using a goal that directly effects perhaps the three greatest
global threats that exist. Climate change, diminishing fossil fuels
and the....wars.... which should flow like water from those
problems if we ignore them.

Let's see, justifying NASA's primary goal with a moon base
that is only useful to the military, or a goal that's designed to
......SAVE THE WORLD.

Which will resonate with the taxpayers????
The choice is obvious. Incremental ideas and steps
bring equally small budgets and public support.

The Big Idea can create the space future all of us seem to want.


s

"Jonathan" writes:

Let's see, justifying NASA's primary goal with a moon base
that is only useful to the military, or a goal that's designed to
.....SAVE THE WORLD.

Oh, all right, I'll bite. What possible military applications
would a moon base have which make it superior to, you know, earth bases
with support from earth-orbiting satellites?

--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Apr 15, 10:09�am, (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
"Jonathan" writes:
Let's see, justifying NASA's primary goal with a moon base
that is only useful to the military, or a goal that's designed to
.....SAVE THE WORLD.

� � � � Oh, all right, I'll bite. �What possible military applications
would a moon base have which make it superior to, you know, earth bases
with support from earth-orbiting satellites? �

--
� � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � Joseph Nebus
---------------------------------------------------------------------------�---

most average joes think moon visits of any kind are a waste of money,:
(L(

except travel and tourism, and perhaps robotic moon exploration.

which would advance robotics a lot, useful on earth

solar space power would be awesome if the transmission issues can be
overcome

On Apr 14, 4:14*pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
"BradGuth" wrote in message

...

This article brings a tear to my eye~

At $1/kwhr in wholesale bulk, selling this SBSF form of clean energy
may become their biggest challenge,

A big advantage of SSP is that it could be serve 'specialty' markets.
Say providing energy at peak prices, or for difficult locations.
It doesn't have to compete directly with conventional power plants.

Reinventing the Solar Power Satellite
Geoffrey A. Landis

"Even higher revenue could be achieved if the solar power satellite
could service the spot market, where instantaneous price of
electricity can, for brief periods, rise to an order of *magnitude
higher than the peak-power cost. This would require a power
satellite with the ability to switch beams from one ground
location to a different ground location rapidly."http://www.nss.org/settlement/ssp/library/2004-NASA-ReinventingTheSol...

although eventually it might
almost offset the global polluting and substantial resources drained
by having accomplished the satellite and terrestrial based
infrastructure to begin with.

Here's the thing about SSP that I keep going on about.
The prerequisites for Space Solar Power are many, starting
with a ground based solar infrastructure that has to come first.
The two compliment each other, not compete according
to the study above. It would also require low cost to orbit
space ports ect etc. All the basic infrastructure needed to
produce a true space-faring ability are needed for SSP.

By using SSP as the driving force for all this infrastructure, we
are using a goal that directly effects perhaps the three greatest
global threats that exist. Climate change, diminishing fossil fuels
and the....wars.... which should flow like water from those
problems if we ignore them.

Let's see, justifying NASA's primary goal with a moon base
that is only useful to the military, or a goal that's designed to
.....SAVE THE WORLD.

Which will resonate with the taxpayers????
The choice is obvious. Incremental ideas and steps
bring equally small budgets and public support.

The Big Idea can create the space future all of us seem to want.

s

My LSE-CM/ISS is a big idea. Relocating our moon to Earth L1 is
another big idea. SPS of most any kind via satellites isn't,
especially if the net usable energy isn't all that green or
affordable.

There is no spare loot or time to go around. So, what's next?

Terrestrial thorium reactors, wind turbines, tidal turbines,
geothermal and even solar PV and/or Stirling thermal derived energy
are perfectly doable as is, and not even all that spendy.

~ BG

On Apr 15, 7:09*am, (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
"Jonathan" writes:
Let's see, justifying NASA's primary goal with a moon base
that is only useful to the military, or a goal that's designed to
.....SAVE THE WORLD.

* * * * Oh, all right, I'll bite. *What possible military applications
would a moon base have which make it superior to, you know, earth bases
with support from earth-orbiting satellites? *

--
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Selene L1, my LSE-CM/ISS and a dipole element that reaches to within
2r of Earth.

~ BG

Joseph Nebus wrote:
Oh, all right, I'll bite. What possible military applications
would a moon base have which make it superior to, you know, earth bases
with support from earth-orbiting satellites?


Keeping an eye on the Selenites in case they try anything funny?

Pat

"BradGuth" wrote in message
...
On Apr 14, 4:14 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
"BradGuth" wrote in message

...


The Big Idea can create the space future all of us seem to want.


My LSE-CM/ISS is a big idea.

Let me sit down, fill up a big ol' bowl and get to ranting.

Here we go....


The Big Idea I was trying to convey is the notion of a /single solution/
directly solving the /most difficult/ problems the world faces.
Such as climate change and an idealized energy source of the future.
For an idea to take hold and self organize certain properties need
to be present. They're the same properties required for the creation
of all that exists. There's a simple equation for Creation.
Whether an idea, a galaxy or a forest.

The opposite extremes, or static and chaotic attractors must be at
simultaneous maximums. Creation then emerges when the two become
intractably entangled, so that one can no longer tell which dominates
the whole. When no one can no longer tell one from the other.
At this point the third dynamic attractor emerges, and cyclic
behavior spontaneously begins.

Cyclic behavior emerges from the union of classical and quantum motion.
Or said another way....

Darwin emerges from the union of the opposites of motion and light.
A planet in a water zone should define when the two opposites
of motion and energy are maximized and in balance. Where
complexity is highest.


Are ya with me here?


It's really simple, like an integral is for calculus, a cloud serves as the
abstract starting point. Condensation (static, subcritical or classical
behavior) and evaporation (chaotic, supercritical or quantum like behavior)
set in motion against each other so that neither wins. Persistently poised
at the critical point between each other. That's when the emergent dynamic
behavior suddenly begins. New behavior such as clouds, rain, tornadoes
and all the rest are created from this critical system wide balance.

Just as genetics and mutation, static and chaotic, are set against
each other via natural selection. Life emerges.

Just as the rule of law and freedom, in a persistent balance via elections
creates a dynamic society. Such organized wholes are characterized by
chaotic components (trembling) but system output which is stable, adaptive
and resilient. Which self tunes to the ideal as if by Adam Smith-like
invisible hands.

It's no different with creating an idea. One must begin with static
and chaotic attractors which are at their maximums. Then resolve
the two into a single system.

For the problem of ....Saving the World.

The static attractor is a classical frame, which is our /present reality./
The chaotic attractor is a quantum or unpredictable frame, our
....imagination... of what is to come....the /future reality/
We must them /maximize each/, which means the very largest
global problems facing us today, and also the foreseeable future.

To ..Create... a self organizing or evolving system which will settle
on the ideal solution to the greatest needs of today and the future
we must entangle those two optimized opposites so that neither
is dominant.

We do this by placing those two opposites into a single system.
So they can dynamically interact. A single system means a single
solution that can potentially and /simultaneously/ be the solutions
to the greatest present /and/ future global needs.

To find this common denominator which spans global needs, the
present and future we must simply look to nature and observe.
There is only one thing with which virtually everything on earth
has evolved around. The ultimate constant or static attractor.

The Sun.

The common denominator which can solve our greatest current
and future needs is energy. Clean, cheap and inexhaustible
energy. The ultimate or idealized solution above all and
across time involves the Sun.

One component, and the starting point, of the ultimate idea is
the Sun. The other component of our ultimate idea is the chaotic, our
imagination. The ultimate static and chaotic attractors both maximized
is the Sun and our Imagination.

As in what's the best /practical/ way we can possibly think of to create
clean, cheap and inexhaustible energy from the sun?

The rest really is grunt work, we're left with either ground based
solar power or from orbit as the two primary paths. We then maximize
and resolve them, which means from ground based first, to orbital next.

Just as the Big Idea with the Vision is Men on Mars, requiring
the stepping stone of the Moon, solving the problem of the
ideal space adventure. Space Solar Power, requiring the
stepping stone of terrestrial solar power, is the Big Idea
for the solution to SAVING THE WORLD.

You see, the Vision is only indirectly designed to help humanity.
SSP is directly designed to be the big technological answer
for helping us save ourselves and our future.

But always problem solving within this rote static/chaotic formula.
No matter the question, or scale, reduce to opposites, maximize
and resolve the two until you inevitably reach the ultimate goal.
Kind of a Hegelian logic except each opposite to be resolved
is classical and quantum like system behavioral properties.
Static and chaotic attractors. With the two at criticality always being
the correct answer.

This is the way Nature creates. Our science should mimic Her
at all times.

If we believe in Nature, and believe in rational thought, we must
sit down and figure this out. And then relentlessly preach
this idea as far and wide as we possibly can.

My question to you, does what I say above make sense to you?
Is it easy to understand and convey to others?
What's the best way to convince others?

The Grand Unified Theory, within this kind of thinking, seems so
simple and obvious to me.

What is the smallest and largest examples in the universe of
opposites persistently poised at criticality with each other?
What is the largest and smallest phase transition states
in the universe? A cloud is a human scale example.

For the universe the smallest is between matter and energy.
The largest is between gravity and cosmic expansion.

From the smallest ....light emerges, from the largest
classical ....motion or inertia emerges.

What emerges from critical interaction of light and motion?
What emerges from the phase transition between light and motion?
What emerges when classical and quantum motion are entangled?

Darwin emerges!

A planet in a water zone would define where this balance
is best expressed. Where geology and the atmosphere are
equal partners in the system wide behavior.
Or a temperature gradient if you like.
Where neither static or chaotic rules, but thermodynamics.



Life emerges from the dynamic union of classical and quantum motion.



The best answers will never flow from one or the other.
But when both are equal partners, where complexity is highest.

You see, the search for simplicity/reducing as a means of deriving
universal law is just plain backwards. We still live in the Dark Ages.
Our search should be for criticality, for complexity. Life shows
us fundamental law, and how the physical universe works

Not the other way around, we still live in the Dark Ages.

Not for long.....and we get to watch


There is no spare loot or time to go around. So, what's next?


Terrestrial thorium reactors, wind turbines, tidal turbines,
geothermal and even solar PV and/or Stirling thermal derived energy
are perfectly doable as is, and not even all that spendy.


Space Solar Power can be a path to the hundred smaller solutions path
also. The idea is to ...start...a self organizing system, then let the system
find the best solutions. It may be SSP, it may be a hundred smaller ideas.
That doesn't matter, what matters is to get the ball rolling and let Nature
take it's course. Just because the idea may begin with SSP doesn't mean
it has to end with it. The problem solving system will go where it will.

Just as Nature does, always settling on the best solution eventually.
Whatever that may be.

hmmm...38 minutes of typing. I need to get it down to three
minutes and fifty words or less. Practice practice practice.
Kinda like this writer from a century and a half ago....
What a much better way of expressing ideas like self organization
and emergence.



............................

'Tis Opposites -- entice --
Deformed Men -- ponder Grace --
Bright fires -- the Blanketless --
The Lost -- Day's face --

...............................


Growth of Man -- like Growth of Nature --
Gravitates within --
Atmosphere, and Sun endorse it --
Bit it stir -- alone --

Each -- its difficult Ideal
Must achieve -- Itself --
Through the solitary prowess
Of a Silent Life --

Effort -- is the sole condition --
Patience of Itself --
Patience of opposing forces --
And intact Belief --

Looking on -- is the Department
Of its Audience --
But Transaction -- is assisted
By no Countenance --

............................................


I thought that nature was enough
Till Human nature came
But that the other did absorb
As Parallax a Flame --

Of Human nature just aware
There added the Divine
Brief struggle for capacity
The power to contain

Is always as the contents
But give a Giant room
And you will lodge a Giant
And not a smaller man