Future Space War

In sci.space.tech Bob Martin wrote:
Read it again - the book specifically noted that they built (and
later used) a backup catapult, with its own fusion plant, concealed to
avoid bombing by the UN forces. And that the secret weapon remained a
secret long after the war ended.

Which book was this? I've read Starship Troopers and I'm trying to
figure out which of his other ones would be good/similar to that one.

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

Also interesting is "Mutineers Moon", about a quite different moon,
by David Weber.

(Bob Martin) writes:

Read it again - the book specifically noted that they built (and
later used) a backup catapult, with its own fusion plant, concealed to
avoid bombing by the UN forces. And that the secret weapon remained a
secret long after the war ended.

Which book was this? I've read Starship Troopers and I'm trying to
figure out which of his other ones would be good/similar to that one.


The book many people here are referring to and nobody is actually
naming because everybody assumes everybody else knows what it is,
is Robert A. Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", published
in 1966.

One of the classics, tMiaHM shows up on an awful lot of "top ten
science fiction novels ever" lists, so you'd need a pretty good
reason *not* to find and read it. One possible such reason is that
it is rather dated; if you can't rewind your brain forty years you
may bounce off parts of it.


The general plot is that, in 2076-as-forecast-from-1966, the denizens
of a Lunar penal colony decide they've had enough of taking orders
from Earth and organize a revolution. The particular bit that is
relevant here is their choice of weaponry - they can make small arms
locally, but their way of bringing the war to Earth is to use an
electromagnetic catapult that used to launch hundred-ton cargo barges
on an Earthward trajectory, to launch hundred-ton rocks instead.

A hundred tons of rock free-falling from the Moon to the Earth will
arrive with, and liberate on impact, kinetic energy comparable to
the Hiroshima Slum Clearance Event. So it makes for a nice show of
force.

Unfortunately, this is one of those parts that's a bit dated. In
1966, it was a reasonably well thought extrapolation, but in the
years since people who can afford to put more time into doing the
math than can even a diligent SF writer have found the relevant
scaling laws: electromagnetic catapults get a *lot* more expensive
as you make the payload bigger, and only a little more expensive
as you make the repetition rate higher.

So anything built for mercantile rather than military purposes, as
was the original lunar catapult in tMiaHM, will be designed to launch
hundred-pound buckets every second rather than hundred-ton barges every
hour. And a hundred-pound projectile will shed almost all of its energy
harmlessly in the upper atmosphere.


Still a good story, you just have to remember that much of the technical
extrapolation is obsolete.


--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
* for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *

In article nu3fc.136553$K91.350560@attbi_s02,
says...
"Bob Martin" wrote in message
om...
Read it again - the book specifically noted that they built (and
later used) a backup catapult, [...]
Which book was this? I've read Starship Troopers and I'm trying to
figure out which of his other ones would be good/similar to that one.
"The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress"

That same book also contained a bit of stealth technology: the sentient
computer (Mike) claimed he could use a pair of radars in such a way that
the bad guys on earth would think there was only one radar half-way
between the two real radars.

When I first read this, I thought Heinlein was being silly. Years later
I discovered the audio-equivalent in my own living room: two
loudspeakers, fed identical signals and equidistant from the listener
(me!), sounded exactly like one speaker half-way between the real two.

Later yet, I learned of early airplane navigation systems where two
radio stations transmitted carefully chosen signals such that the pilot
would hear a continuous signal when and only when on-course. If the
pilot was off-course, the signal he heard would tell him how to get back
on-course.

These days, it is common to use multiple transmitters of carefully
chosen signals to determine location and direction. (keyword: GPS)
--
Kevin Willoughby lid

Imagine that, a FROG ON-OFF switch, hardly the work
for test pilots. -- Mike Collins

In article ,
(Gordon D. Pusch) writes:
|
| "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress." However, it is not "similar" to
| "Starship Troopers;" it is basically a re-telling of the American
| Revolution[*] (with elements of early Australia), set in the context
| of Luna as a penal colony whose residents (both convict and free)
| were being ruthlessly exploited by the federated terran governments.
[*] Official USA Version, cleaned up of most of the embarrassing
facts. In reality, it is hard to know which side was ethically
less deserving of victory. Heinlein would have been a better
author if he had reduced the propaganda content of his writings.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

(John Schilling) wrote in message ...
(Bob Martin) writes:

Read it again - the book specifically noted that they built (and
later used) a backup catapult, with its own fusion plant, concealed to
avoid bombing by the UN forces. And that the secret weapon remained a
secret long after the war ended.

Which book was this? I've read Starship Troopers and I'm trying to
figure out which of his other ones would be good/similar to that one.


The book many people here are referring to and nobody is actually
naming because everybody assumes everybody else knows what it is,
is Robert A. Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", published
in 1966.

Ok, thanks... I'm looking at picking up a couple more of Dennis
Jenkins's books, and I'll tack that one onto the order.

"John Schilling" wrote in message
...
(Bob Martin) writes:

electromagnetic catapults get a *lot* more expensive
as you make the payload bigger, and only a little more expensive
as you make the repetition rate higher.

Can you point me to a technical discussion of the engineering of EM
catapults for launch purposes (high school or undergraduate physics level)?

--thanks

In article ,
John Schilling wrote:

The book many people here are referring to and nobody is actually
naming because everybody assumes everybody else knows what it is,
is Robert A. Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", published
in 1966.

snip

The general plot is that, in 2076-as-forecast-from-1966, the denizens
of a Lunar penal colony decide they've had enough of taking orders
from Earth and organize a revolution. The particular bit that is
relevant here is their choice of weaponry - they can make small arms
locally, but their way of bringing the war to Earth is to use an
electromagnetic catapult that used to launch hundred-ton cargo barges
on an Earthward trajectory, to launch hundred-ton rocks instead.

A hundred tons of rock free-falling from the Moon to the Earth will
arrive with, and liberate on impact, kinetic energy comparable to
the Hiroshima Slum Clearance Event. So it makes for a nice show of
force.

Unfortunately, this is one of those parts that's a bit dated. In
1966, it was a reasonably well thought extrapolation, but in the
years since people who can afford to put more time into doing the
math than can even a diligent SF writer have found the relevant
scaling laws: electromagnetic catapults get a *lot* more expensive
as you make the payload bigger, and only a little more expensive
as you make the repetition rate higher.

There's also a serious problem that RAH overestimated some
of the physical effects of high velocity impactors. One example would
be a strike near the UK which is supposed to cause problems up the
Thames. Unfortunately, if you run the numbers, the ripple that hits
London is a couple of inches high, maybe.

RAH could have BOTECed this from Glasstone's _The Effects of
Nuclear Weapons_ but I don't of any evidence he owned a copy.


So anything built for mercantile rather than military purposes, as
was the original lunar catapult in tMiaHM, will be designed to launch
hundred-pound buckets every second rather than hundred-ton barges every
hour. And a hundred-pound projectile will shed almost all of its energy
harmlessly in the upper atmosphere.

There's also the question of why exactly someone would design a
grain barge of any size to be able to reach the ground at Mach 25. What
possible good could come of this?


Still a good story, you just have to remember that much of the technical
extrapolation is obsolete.

IMO, the last good novel RAH wrote, ignoring the squicky bits.

--
"The keywords for tonight are Caution and Flammability."
JFK, _Bubba Ho Tep_

John Schilling wrote:

(Bob Martin) writes:


Read it again - the book specifically noted that they built (and
later used) a backup catapult, with its own fusion plant, concealed to
avoid bombing by the UN forces. And that the secret weapon remained a
secret long after the war ended.


Which book was this? I've read Starship Troopers and I'm trying to
figure out which of his other ones would be good/similar to that one.



The book many people here are referring to and nobody is actually
naming because everybody assumes everybody else knows what it is,
is Robert A. Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", published
in 1966.

One of the classics, tMiaHM shows up on an awful lot of "top ten
science fiction novels ever" lists, so you'd need a pretty good
reason *not* to find and read it. One possible such reason is that
it is rather dated; if you can't rewind your brain forty years you
may bounce off parts of it.


The general plot is that, in 2076-as-forecast-from-1966, the denizens
of a Lunar penal colony decide they've had enough of taking orders
from Earth and organize a revolution. The particular bit that is
relevant here is their choice of weaponry - they can make small arms
locally, but their way of bringing the war to Earth is to use an
electromagnetic catapult that used to launch hundred-ton cargo barges
on an Earthward trajectory, to launch hundred-ton rocks instead.

A hundred tons of rock free-falling from the Moon to the Earth will
arrive with, and liberate on impact, kinetic energy comparable to
the Hiroshima Slum Clearance Event. So it makes for a nice show of
force.

Unfortunately, this is one of those parts that's a bit dated. In
1966, it was a reasonably well thought extrapolation, but in the
years since people who can afford to put more time into doing the
math than can even a diligent SF writer have found the relevant
scaling laws: electromagnetic catapults get a *lot* more expensive
as you make the payload bigger, and only a little more expensive
as you make the repetition rate higher.

So anything built for mercantile rather than military purposes, as
was the original lunar catapult in tMiaHM, will be designed to launch
hundred-pound buckets every second rather than hundred-ton barges every
hour. And a hundred-pound projectile will shed almost all of its energy
harmlessly in the upper atmosphere.

Not if it's a streamlined rod.
IIRC there was a proposal for such a weapon in LEO.
http://www.jerrypournelle.com/cgi-bi...ange/mega.html
"As an example for discussion, consider the system this author has described
under the name "THOR". Thor consists of orbiting steel rods perhaps 20 feet long
by one foot in diameter. They contain minimal terminal guidance capability, and
a means of locating themselves and their targets through GPS. They can strike
fixed targets with CEP approaching 25 feet. Few elements of air and naval power
are invulnerable to bombardment by kinetic energy weapons from space. No ship
can withstand the impact of 20 feet of steel rod at velocities greater than
12,000 feet per second. Airfields wont fare much better."


--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org

"Greg" wrote
"Dirk Bruere at Neopax" wrote
A megaton nuke exploded in space will wipe out every bit of unshielded
electronics for around 800 miles around the ground zero.
That means computers, car ignition systems, telephones, radios, TVs etc
It would wipe out a modern nation's economy overnight.

Many backup generator systems are unlikly to be affected. Wipe a
modern nations economy--i doubt it. Unless the economy was already in
big decline and fall. Life would go on.

Note that many space based sats will *not* be affected ie
geo-stationary sats

Actually, the prompt dose from a megaton exoatmospheric detonation would
kill every non-military geo-sat in line of sight. With no atmospheric
shielding, the dose rate would cause catastrophic damage to many systems at
that distance. Hardening against dose rate threats is very expensive and
only the military is willing to pay for it (and not on all platforms).

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 00:21:21 -0400, Kevin Willoughby
carved upon a tablet of
ether:

That same book also contained a bit of stealth technology: the sentient
computer (Mike) claimed he could use a pair of radars in such a way that
the bad guys on earth would think there was only one radar half-way
between the two real radars.

When I first read this, I thought Heinlein was being silly. Years later
I discovered the audio-equivalent in my own living room: two
loudspeakers, fed identical signals and equidistant from the listener
(me!), sounded exactly like one speaker half-way between the real two.

It's also a common way of spoofing the older (and dumber) ARM missile
seekers.

--
Rupert Boleyn
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."