CEV to be made commercially available

"Paul F. Dietz" wrote in message
...

I think it's illuminating to ask 'how would the Cold War have gone
differently if the space race hadn't happened'? I doubt much would
have changed. It eventually became clear to all that communism was
seriously flawed, so it wasn't necessary to demonstrate first
world superiority by means of large government programs.

I think that the chief flaw of communism as practised by the USSR is that
they never reached the ideal state of true communism referred to in the
founding documents thereof. If they had, with all assets controlled and
owned by all, instead of owned by the State and controlled by the privileged
few, some good might have come of it.

Neil Gerace wrote:

I think that the chief flaw of communism as practised by the USSR is that
they never reached the ideal state of true communism referred to in the
founding documents thereof. If they had, with all assets controlled and
owned by all, instead of owned by the State and controlled by the privileged
few, some good might have come of it.

No, the chief flaw was the lack of a market system to set
prices. The centralized control they tried to use was hopelessly
inept at balancing supply and demand on the huge array of products
they had to deal with. They only made it work as well as
they did (which wasn't very well) by dint of tremendous
improvisation and by the black market.

Paul

Jeff Findley wrote:
" wrote in
message ups.com...

snidely wrote:

No, no, Scott -- this is the core of what you have wrong. The public
doesn't care a fig about HERO-ASTRONAUTS unless there is a hint of
blood and gore (a bit like NASCAR). What VG, XCOR, Bigelow are selling
is PERSONAL SPACE TRAVEL, and quite a few more people are interested in
that.


Here's your problem: the public tends to identify more with astronauts
than bajillionaires. 99.99999% of the public will not only never go to
space, they'll never have the *option* of going to space. So while Joe
Billionaire spends his five million for a week on the LEO Hilton, Joe
Hero goes to the moon and represents The Best Of America.

Yet TV shows like The Osbornes, Survivor, Big Brother, The Bachelor, and
etc. get good ratings. When there is finally a LEO Hilton, how many reality
shows will set up shop in LEO? How many people who are bored watching an
astronaut perform an EVA would actually be interested in seeing a couple of
reality show contestants making out in zero gravity? Not to mention zero
gravity porn...

"Personal space travel" is decades away. "Rich guy space travel" is,
hopefully, just a few years away. It will capture the public for a
while, and then it will fade. Hopefully, the rich will keep flying and
paying so that it will actually become affordable for schmoes like the
most of us, but it'll be a while.

Yet some successful TV shows are little more than TV cameras following rich
people around. What makes these shows interesting isn't necessarily the
setting, but the way people interact. Zero gravity will put a bit of a
twist on how these sorts of people interact, and I'll bet someone with a
camera will be waiting to make a buck off filming non-astronauts in LEO.

Regardless of the interesting space twist, I live in eternal hope that
Reality TV shows are slowly going to fade as people get bored of yet
more variations on a theme.

Dave

"Scott Lowther" wrote in message
...
Pete Lynn wrote:

Do you think that NASA should not be judged, or
held accountable for the intangible wealth it
generates?


Nope.

What is the official estimate for intangible benefits from ESAS?
Breakdown?

In perpetuating the position that space is slow, complicated and
expensive, I expect that ESAS will do more to crush the spirit of the
next generation than inspire it to greater levels of achievement. So
long as space is demonstrated to be hard and inaccessible, except to the
select few, the young will continue to seek careers in other more
exciting fields.


Pete.

"Neil Gerace" wrote in message
...
"Paul F. Dietz" wrote in message
...

I think it's illuminating to ask 'how would the Cold War have gone
differently if the space race hadn't happened'? I doubt much would
have changed. It eventually became clear to all that communism was
seriously flawed, so it wasn't necessary to demonstrate first
world superiority by means of large government programs.

I think that the chief flaw of communism as practised by the USSR is that
they never reached the ideal state of true communism referred to in the
founding documents thereof. If they had, with all assets controlled and
owned by all, instead of owned by the State and controlled by the
privileged
few, some good might have come of it.

The old, "Communism really IS good if it's just given a chance." Sorry, how
many chances does it need.

I think it's just really doomed to fail since it so completely tries to
suppress the human nature of greed.

Wishful thinking doesn't make that go away.

Scott Lowther wrote:



Really? So... a hundred years from now, when two-thirds of humanity
lives *off* Earth


Now, listen very closely....it was only a TV series....the "historical
documents" weren't really sent back through time via a reverse tachyon
field....there is no such thing as dilithium crystals...there really
isn't race of warrior aliens that have heads the look like someone
drove over them with a snow tire and who drink prune juice. Women don't
really run around in chromium bras, microminiskirts, and huge hairdos
....ah, hell.
(On the other hand, if they ever did get a six-man crew on the ISS, and
then there was a nuclear war that left only three survivors on Earth...)

Pat

Pete Lynn wrote:

"Scott Lowther" wrote in message
...


Pete Lynn wrote:



Do you think that NASA should not be judged, or
held accountable for the intangible wealth it
generates?



Nope.



What is the official estimate for intangible benefits from ESAS?
Breakdown?

In perpetuating the position that space is slow, complicated and
expensive, I expect that ESAS will do more to crush the spirit of the
next generation than inspire it to greater levels of achievement.


I don;t see that. Again, Shuttle is all we've had for a quarter century,
and it has been infinitely slower, more complicated and more expensive,
for the simple fact that it went *nowhere.* And yet, during the Shuttle
era people ahve been interested enough in space to actively participate
in the X-Prize.


So
long as space is demonstrated to be hard and inaccessible, except to the
select few, the young will continue to seek careers in other more
exciting fields.


Ah. So you assume that ESAS will send out hit teams to Scaled Composites
and XCOR and Space-X to whack those trying on thier own?

--
"The only thing that galls me about someone burning the American flag is how unoriginal it is. I mean if you're going to pull the Freedom-of-speech card, don't be a hack, come up with something interesting. Fashion Old Glory into a wisecracking puppet and blister the system with a scathing ventriloquism act, or better yet, drape the flag over your head and desecrate it with a large caliber bullet hole." Dennis Miller

"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote in message
.net...
The old, "Communism really IS good if it's just given a chance." Sorry,
how
many chances does it need.

I was pointing out that the USSR never actually achieved communism.

Paul F. Dietz ) wrote:
: Eric Chomko wrote:

: The only blather here is in your brain! You can't grasp that the leaders
: of your party are exactly who to blame based upon keeping the status quo
: WRT funding of an inefficient manned space program. IOW, a blue state NASA
: would never get away with running a manned space program like red state
: NASA is currently doing. Where is Congress on this?

: 'My party'? Are you laboring under the misapprehension that I voted
: for W? (Not that this has any relevance to whether NASA manned space
: efforts are wasteful.)

So you voted for Kerry and Gore? You, a flat-earth liberal? What a joke!

: : You clearly have serious neurotic ticks involving war and W. Do try
: : to distinguish between your hallucinations and what I am actually saying.
:
: You're never clear on what you're saying. You choose to be vague.

: I'm crystal clear in my statements. You just have serious problems
: reading and understanding.

Then state what you do. Heck I told you that I once worked on the Spacelab
project and you almost soiled your shorts ridiculing me for it. The only
neurotic tick is yours WRT manned spaceflight.

: : The military has space applications that are cost-justified. Recon
: : sats, weather sats, communications, early warning, navigation, to name
: : a few. Why should I consider space 'off-limits' to the military?
:
: Perhaps because NASA was set up to be non-military by its very nature. Or
: did you miss that part?

: Um... what? Bizarre non sequitur there, Chomko.

No it isn't. You have a problem with the manned spaceflight budget and I
have a problem with the DOD budget. Given that, my comment is relevant

: : I can't think of anything in *manned* spaceflight that would be
: : very useful to the military, and the military apparently can't see
: : anything either.
:
: At least not yet. So because there is no manned military application of
: space, you're against manned spaceflight?

: No.

Just the cost? What percentage of what it is would make you happy?

: Wait, before you start
: questioning my logic, answer this: If in fact, you support civilian manned
: spaceflight, are you simply against using public funds?

: I consider use of private funds to be a matter for those who
: own those funds. Personally, I am not inclined to invest
: in this area. Those who consider this mistaken are welcome
: to prove me wrong and become wealthy in the process.

: As for public funds, I'm not against support of manned spaceflight
: in principle, but in practice there doesn't seem to have been
: a situation where it has made sense.

Art, in an of itself, doesn't make sense. When are you going to get that
manned spaceflight is more of an artform than it is science?! Are you
really that much of a "think-inside-the-box" sort of guy?

On the same token, life doesn't make sense...

Can you justify war as art?

: : Typical logic and integrity-free net slime...
:
: Yes, Paul, you are close mineded, as well you should be, because you
: simply have all the answers.

: And the answers say you're full of ****, Chomko.

Better than being an angry little man, such as you are...

Eric

: Paul

Paul F. Dietz ) wrote:
: Seriously bEric Chomko wrote:

: : So effing what, fool? I'm not critiquing NASA's manned space program
: : because of state colors. I'm critiquing it because it's a waste of money.
:
: Yet, you have no wherewithall to drop the blame on the proper doorstep.
: Why? Too affraid, too timid or too clueless?

: Too sane to share your bizarre fixation.

Mission Planning - MSFC - Alabama
Mission Control - JSC - Texas
Launch Facility - KSC - Florida

There is manned spaceflight in a nutshell. Last I checked, they are all
red states.

I wonder if, since 1994 and the GOP takeover of Congress, if manned
spaceflight accountability -as you yourself are bitching about- doesn't
coincide. Pure coincidence?

: : The point is not that the environment is prototypical, the point is
: : that it doesn't connect at all with real external goals. We're going
: : to the moon because we're going to the moon, apparently.
:
: No, we are going because it is time to go back.

: This is vacuous and circular.

No it isn't, it's real!

: New technology with the
: same Apollo goals is still more than Apollo.

: And still less than rational.

Your life isn't rational!! .......Mr Spock

: And the third time might be
: in 30+ years with THAT new technology. But eventually the goal is to make
: the moon self-sustaining as a colony. Do you not agree?

: I do not agree that that is an end in itself. It may be a means to
: an end, but colonies need an economic base. ESAS will do little to
: bring lunar colonization closer, because it doesn't address the economic
: barriers.

You are putting the cart before the horse. Exploration leads to discovery.
You can't have colonization before discovery. Columbus proved that.

: And to make a colony requires next steps, be they baby or otherwise...

: But the idea that ESAS is that next step is a fallacy of linear
: thinking. Kind of like the idea that the first step to reaching
: the moon is climbing trees.

No the first step to reaching the moon was putting Alan Shepard into
space.

: So do you believe Apollo was a waste? Shouldn't have happened, etc.?

: Right. Going to burn me at the stake now?

No. You're entitled to your own opinion, despite how flawed I think it is.

I suspect that we both agree that the crowning achievement of the first
half of the 20th century was the allied victory of WWII. What is the
second half's major moment? I say it was Apollo. What do you say?

Eric

: Paul