!!! Black Hole Gravity - speed of gravity

Painius wrote:

Also, i wonder how much c would change for a given
change of pressure? We know that the force of gravity
changes as the square of the distance, so presumably
the change of pressure would be proportional, but it is
possible that even a huge change of pressure would only
slightly affect the value of c. Can this be predicted, and
if true, do we have sensitive enough instruments to detect
a small change in c in the areas of space frequented by
us (still near very large, high-gravity objects)?


By definition c is the speed of light _in vacuo_; if you're measuring
the speed of light through any substance you're not directly
measuring c. As for the effect of pressure, a gas's index of
refraction, which is related to the speed of light through it, is
proportional to its pressure.

--
Odysseus

"Odysseus" wrote...
in message ...

Painius wrote:

Also, i wonder how much c would change for a given
change of pressure? We know that the force of gravity
changes as the square of the distance, so presumably
the change of pressure would be proportional, but it is
possible that even a huge change of pressure would only
slightly affect the value of c. Can this be predicted, and
if true, do we have sensitive enough instruments to detect
a small change in c in the areas of space frequented by
us (still near very large, high-gravity objects)?

By definition c is the speed of light _in vacuo_; if you're measuring
the speed of light through any substance you're not directly
measuring c. As for the effect of pressure, a gas's index of
refraction, which is related to the speed of light through it, is
proportional to its pressure.

--
Odysseus

'Lo Odysseus --

The idea is that we have, as far as i know, only measured the
speed of light coming from, say, Jupiter, and perhaps from other
sources, from the standpoint of our perspective on Earth. The
question is, has anyone ever measured the speed of light from a
different perspective out in space?

We are imagining, not a physical "substance" that light is traveling
through, but an extremely dense energy field, as yet undetected,
that light waves "ride" sort of like audio waves on an RF carrier.
And this energy field would appear to decrease in pressure/density
as it approaches a mass. This change in pressure/density might be
expected to result in a change in the speed of a light "beam" coming
from afar. If we could measure this speed out away from Earth
and other masses, and we find that the speed of light is significantly
different than as measured from Earth, this may be evidence of the
dense energy field we've been discussing.

happy days and
starry starry nights

--
A secret of the Universe,
So please don't breathe a word of this,
The Moon above will smile perverse
Whene'er it sees true lovers kiss--
Breathe not a single word of this.

Paine Ellsworth

"Odysseus" wrote...
in message ...

Painius wrote:

Also, i wonder how much c would change for a given
change of pressure? We know that the force of gravity
changes as the square of the distance, so presumably
the change of pressure would be proportional, but it is
possible that even a huge change of pressure would only
slightly affect the value of c. Can this be predicted, and
if true, do we have sensitive enough instruments to detect
a small change in c in the areas of space frequented by
us (still near very large, high-gravity objects)?

By definition c is the speed of light _in vacuo_; if you're measuring
the speed of light through any substance you're not directly
measuring c. As for the effect of pressure, a gas's index of
refraction, which is related to the speed of light through it, is
proportional to its pressure.

--
Odysseus

'Lo Odysseus --

The idea is that we have, as far as i know, only measured the
speed of light coming from, say, Jupiter, and perhaps from other
sources, from the standpoint of our perspective on Earth. The
question is, has anyone ever measured the speed of light from a
different perspective out in space?

We are imagining, not a physical "substance" that light is traveling
through, but an extremely dense energy field, as yet undetected,
that light waves "ride" sort of like audio waves on an RF carrier.
And this energy field would appear to decrease in pressure/density
as it approaches a mass. This change in pressure/density might be
expected to result in a change in the speed of a light "beam" coming
from afar. If we could measure this speed out away from Earth
and other masses, and we find that the speed of light is significantly
different than as measured from Earth, this may be evidence of the
dense energy field we've been discussing.

happy days and
starry starry nights

--
A secret of the Universe,
So please don't breathe a word of this,
The Moon above will smile perverse
Whene'er it sees true lovers kiss--
Breathe not a single word of this.

Paine Ellsworth

In message ,
Painius writes
"Odysseus" wrote...
in message ...

Painius wrote:

Also, i wonder how much c would change for a given
change of pressure? We know that the force of gravity
changes as the square of the distance, so presumably
the change of pressure would be proportional, but it is
possible that even a huge change of pressure would only
slightly affect the value of c. Can this be predicted, and
if true, do we have sensitive enough instruments to detect
a small change in c in the areas of space frequented by
us (still near very large, high-gravity objects)?

By definition c is the speed of light _in vacuo_; if you're measuring
the speed of light through any substance you're not directly
measuring c. As for the effect of pressure, a gas's index of
refraction, which is related to the speed of light through it, is
proportional to its pressure.

--
Odysseus

'Lo Odysseus --

The idea is that we have, as far as i know, only measured the
speed of light coming from, say, Jupiter, and perhaps from other
sources, from the standpoint of our perspective on Earth. The
question is, has anyone ever measured the speed of light from a
different perspective out in space?

We haven't even done that, if you believe Ralph Sansbury :-)
Measurements of the binary pulsar apparently show that the speed of
gravity (whatever that means) equals the speed of light. Do those
measurements assume that the speed of light is the same as it is here,
or do they actually measure the speed?
--
What have they got to hide? Release the full Beagle 2 report.
Remove spam and invalid from address to reply.

In message ,
Painius writes
"Odysseus" wrote...
in message ...

Painius wrote:

Also, i wonder how much c would change for a given
change of pressure? We know that the force of gravity
changes as the square of the distance, so presumably
the change of pressure would be proportional, but it is
possible that even a huge change of pressure would only
slightly affect the value of c. Can this be predicted, and
if true, do we have sensitive enough instruments to detect
a small change in c in the areas of space frequented by
us (still near very large, high-gravity objects)?

By definition c is the speed of light _in vacuo_; if you're measuring
the speed of light through any substance you're not directly
measuring c. As for the effect of pressure, a gas's index of
refraction, which is related to the speed of light through it, is
proportional to its pressure.

--
Odysseus

'Lo Odysseus --

The idea is that we have, as far as i know, only measured the
speed of light coming from, say, Jupiter, and perhaps from other
sources, from the standpoint of our perspective on Earth. The
question is, has anyone ever measured the speed of light from a
different perspective out in space?

We haven't even done that, if you believe Ralph Sansbury :-)
Measurements of the binary pulsar apparently show that the speed of
gravity (whatever that means) equals the speed of light. Do those
measurements assume that the speed of light is the same as it is here,
or do they actually measure the speed?
--
What have they got to hide? Release the full Beagle 2 report.
Remove spam and invalid from address to reply.

Adam The electron is in the quantum realm. It is not right to think of
it having a solid surface like the Earth. Think of it more like the gas
planet Jupiter. Lots of sameness,as spin absorbing, emitting
photons,and clouds for surface. Don't think of an electron as a solid
particle. We don't think of neutrons,or protons structures as one
particle but composed of many sub-particles,and messenger particles plus
neutrinos. The electron cloud has an axis,and has the features of a
spinning top,that gives it gyroscope physics. My "Spin is in theory" is
short and easy to comprehend. It takes in quantum gravity,and how the
graviton gives its message of attraction to all there is. No
fudging allowed Bert

Adam The electron is in the quantum realm. It is not right to think of
it having a solid surface like the Earth. Think of it more like the gas
planet Jupiter. Lots of sameness,as spin absorbing, emitting
photons,and clouds for surface. Don't think of an electron as a solid
particle. We don't think of neutrons,or protons structures as one
particle but composed of many sub-particles,and messenger particles plus
neutrinos. The electron cloud has an axis,and has the features of a
spinning top,that gives it gyroscope physics. My "Spin is in theory" is
short and easy to comprehend. It takes in quantum gravity,and how the
graviton gives its message of attraction to all there is. No
fudging allowed Bert

Paine,
Although i had "officially exited" this thread to begin
another one with OG, i gotta hop back in briefly to address one
statement where you sed:

...this energy field would appear to
decrease in pressure/density as it
approaches a mass. This change in
pressure/density might be expected to
result in a change in the speed of a light
"beam" coming from afar. If we could
measure this speed out away from Earth
and other masses, and we find that the
speed of light is significantly different
than as measured from Earth, this may
be evidence of the dense energy field
we've been discussing.

Again, the change in lightspeed is referanced from an 'outside'
referance frame, a concept that OG seems to be having trouble 'getting'.
'Frinstance, referanced from 'outside' the Earth's
gravity well, lightspeed decreases in the decreasing density/pressure of
the gravity well. From outside, we see light climbing out of the gravity
well redshifted. Yet from the 'inside' frame, c is a constant 300,000
km/s HERE at the Earth's surface locally, and THERE in deep space,
locally. The difference is in the density of the spatial medium between
'here' and 'there'. From 'inside', we see the *effect* of the difference
as either redshift or blueshift of light coming from 'outside'.
Also, as OG has pointed out in the other thread, the
length of measuring rods changes in exact proportion to density change.
And that length change is referanced from the 'outside' frame.

It may seem counterintuitive at first, that as the accelerating flow
approaches Earth's surface, pressure/density within the flow decreases.
But this is what happens in all of nature's sinks, such as cyclones and
whirlpools. Think venturi.
Exiting thread (again). oc

Paine,
Although i had "officially exited" this thread to begin
another one with OG, i gotta hop back in briefly to address one
statement where you sed:

...this energy field would appear to
decrease in pressure/density as it
approaches a mass. This change in
pressure/density might be expected to
result in a change in the speed of a light
"beam" coming from afar. If we could
measure this speed out away from Earth
and other masses, and we find that the
speed of light is significantly different
than as measured from Earth, this may
be evidence of the dense energy field
we've been discussing.

Again, the change in lightspeed is referanced from an 'outside'
referance frame, a concept that OG seems to be having trouble 'getting'.
'Frinstance, referanced from 'outside' the Earth's
gravity well, lightspeed decreases in the decreasing density/pressure of
the gravity well. From outside, we see light climbing out of the gravity
well redshifted. Yet from the 'inside' frame, c is a constant 300,000
km/s HERE at the Earth's surface locally, and THERE in deep space,
locally. The difference is in the density of the spatial medium between
'here' and 'there'. From 'inside', we see the *effect* of the difference
as either redshift or blueshift of light coming from 'outside'.
Also, as OG has pointed out in the other thread, the
length of measuring rods changes in exact proportion to density change.
And that length change is referanced from the 'outside' frame.

It may seem counterintuitive at first, that as the accelerating flow
approaches Earth's surface, pressure/density within the flow decreases.
But this is what happens in all of nature's sinks, such as cyclones and
whirlpools. Think venturi.
Exiting thread (again). oc

You still havent explained what you mean when you say that the electron (or
electron cloud) spins at the rate of c!! I have read and somewhat
understand that the electron is thought of as a cloud (based on the
uncertainty principle), but have never heard before that its spin is at the
rate of c. As far as I understand current theory 'spin' is not actually the
same as a spinning top, just like the color of a quark is not actually its
color. If that is the case then it would not be correct to even talk about
rate of spin. But it is possible that I misunderstand that or that you have
an alternate theory. But so far we have not succeeded in communicating from
you to me what it is you mean exactly by spin = c. So what do you mean
specifically, about that and ignoring for the moment any mispeaking on my
part and focussing on what YOU mean.

"G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote in message
...
Adam The electron is in the quantum realm. It is not right to think of
it having a solid surface like the Earth. Think of it more like the gas
planet Jupiter. Lots of sameness,as spin absorbing, emitting
photons,and clouds for surface. Don't think of an electron as a solid
particle. We don't think of neutrons,or protons structures as one
particle but composed of many sub-particles,and messenger particles plus
neutrinos. The electron cloud has an axis,and has the features of a
spinning top,that gives it gyroscope physics. My "Spin is in theory" is
short and easy to comprehend. It takes in quantum gravity,and how the
graviton gives its message of attraction to all there is. No
fudging allowed Bert