Launched into orbit before 1950

Here is an odd thing I remember reading somewhere and can not find
again.
During the high altitude testing at White Sands with V-2s , there was
an experiment creating 'Artificial Meteors'(I am not sure what was
meant by this) by launching rifle grenades at or near apogee.
I seem to remember reading that one of the researchers at White Sands
speculated that some shrapnel from this experiment given a fluke
direction and motion could have temporarily gone into orbit about the
earth.
(Of course there would have been no way of proving it.)
Anybody remember this?
(This could of happened as early as 10 years before Sputnik.)

On Oct 3, 3:06 pm, Al wrote:
Here is an odd thing I remember reading somewhere and can not find
again.
During the high altitude testing at White Sands with V-2s , there was
an experiment creating 'Artificial Meteors'(I am not sure what was
meant by this) by launching rifle grenades at or near apogee.
I seem to remember reading that one of the researchers at White Sands
speculated that some shrapnel from this experiment given a fluke
direction and motion could have temporarily gone into orbit about the
earth.
(Of course there would have been no way of proving it.)
Anybody remember this?
(This could of happened as early as 10 years before Sputnik.)

http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbchron.html

17 December 1946

Zwicky has recruited many professional and amateur
astronomers and meteor observers to help track the flight
of the missile; they are positioned at sites all over New
Mexico and into Arizona. Over 30 cameras are installed
within a 20-mile radius of the launch site, including an
8-inch Schmidt telescope shipped from Mt Palomar,
California. Other cameras are carried aloft in aircraft to
assist in triangulation of the rocket's path. In addition,
astronomers Vesto M Slipher, of the Lowell Observatory
at Flagstaff, Arizona; Edwin F Carpenter, at Kitt Peak,
Arizona; and Lincoln LaPaz (a noted authority on
meteors) at Albuquerque, are primed to track the test.
The 18-inch Schmidt telescope hundreds of miles away
at Mt Palomar is trained on the sky over White Sands
as well, but poor weather obstructs its view.

V-2 number 17 is launched at 10:12 PM MDT on a
vertical trajectory, aimed for maximum altitude. Its
engine burns for 70 seconds, longer than any other V-2
in the entire US flight test program, and a peak velocity
of over 5,400 feet per second (nearly 3,700 mph) is
achieved. The rocket streaks to an altitude of some 116
miles before exploding. Ground observers as far away as
Arizona are able to easily track the rocket's exhaust,
and even after the engine runs out of fuel, its glowing
nozzle components are clearly visible as it soars into
space. Unfortunately, the artificial meteors are never
seen; the conclusion is that the grenades may not
have fired.

Zwicky is determined to pursue the experiments and
has ambitious plans to launch similar shaped-charge
artificial meteors from multistage rockets, balloons,
artillery pieces, and aircraft. He is obstructed, however,
by Harvard astronomer Fred Whipple, an influential
member of rocket science committees, who reverses
his earlier support for the project and now steadfastly
refuses to allow further such experimentation on the
grounds that the technology is immature and unreliable.
Whipple unaccountably accuses Zwicky of misuse of
public property and threatens to sue him. Zwicky will
only be permitted to conduct another similar
experiment in October 1957, but he remains angry
about Whipple's obstructionism for decades.

On December 11-12, 1950, Whipple heads a White
Sands upper-atmosphere research project called "T-Day"
in which launches of four Army Signal Corps Aerobee
sounding rockets equipped with grenade charges are
conducted in parallel with Signal Corps high-altitude
balloon flights and a night launch of the large Navy
Viking VI rocket, all timed to coincide with the maximum
of the Geminid meteor shower. Zwicky is excluded from
the event.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would suggest that a rocket that has a maximum velocity
of 3,700 MPH has AbZero ability to place anything into a
17,500 MPH orbit.

Andre

On Oct 3, 12:06 pm, Al wrote:
Here is an odd thing I remember reading somewhere and can not find
again.
During the high altitude testing at White Sands with V-2s , there was
an experiment creating 'Artificial Meteors'(I am not sure what was
meant by this) by launching rifle grenades at or near apogee.
I seem to remember reading that one of the researchers at White Sands
speculated that some shrapnel from this experiment given a fluke
direction and motion could have temporarily gone into orbit about the
earth.
(Of course there would have been no way of proving it.)
Anybody remember this?
(This could of happened as early as 10 years before Sputnik.)

I remember something like this in an issue of Aviation Week a day or
three after the launch of Sputnik 1. It's similar to the idea that a
suborbital launch of ball barring-sized beads went into solar orbit a
year or so before Luna 1 did. Interesting to speculate, but since
there's no practical way to prove it and no information was ever
received, it just ends up being Nationalistic 'Sour Grapes'.

Al wrote:
Here is an odd thing I remember reading somewhere and can not find
again.
During the high altitude testing at White Sands with V-2s , there was
an experiment creating 'Artificial Meteors'(I am not sure what was
meant by this) by launching rifle grenades at or near apogee.
I seem to remember reading that one of the researchers at White Sands
speculated that some shrapnel from this experiment given a fluke
direction and motion could have temporarily gone into orbit about the
earth.
(Of course there would have been no way of proving it.)
Anybody remember this?
(This could of happened as early as 10 years before Sputnik.)



It's described on this page: http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbchron.html
Since they were using shaped charge rifle grenades, the "thorn" (that's
the nickname of the metal projectile that comes out of the shaped charge
when it detonates) would be going at very high speed, but I doubt at
anywhere near what would be needed to achieve orbit. But it would neatly
explain "green fireball" sightings, as the liner that's ejected from a
shaped charge and forms into the thorn is made of copper, and copper
burns with a bright green light.
Besides making artificial meteors, they might have been playing around
with a concept for a direct-ascent antisatellite system... as the
projectiles would have been able to rise to very high altitudes...or
working on ways to create decoys for incoming ballistic missiles to use
against enemy ABMs.

Pat

On Oct 3, 5:08 pm, Pat Flannery wrote:
Al wrote:
Here is an odd thing I remember reading somewhere and can not find
again.
During the high altitude testing at White Sands with V-2s , there was
an experiment creating 'Artificial Meteors'(I am not sure what was
meant by this) by launching rifle grenades at or near apogee.
I seem to remember reading that one of the researchers at White Sands
speculated that some shrapnel from this experiment given a fluke
direction and motion could have temporarily gone into orbit about the
earth.
(Of course there would have been no way of proving it.)
Anybody remember this?
(This could of happened as early as 10 years before Sputnik.)

It's described on this page:http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbchron.html
Since they were using shaped charge rifle grenades, the "thorn" (that's
the nickname of the metal projectile that comes out of the shaped charge
when it detonates) would be going at very high speed, but I doubt at
anywhere near what would be needed to achieve orbit. But it would neatly
explain "green fireball" sightings, as the liner that's ejected from a
shaped charge and forms into the thorn is made of copper, and copper
burns with a bright green light.
Besides making artificial meteors, they might have been playing around
with a concept for a direct-ascent antisatellite system... as the
projectiles would have been able to rise to very high altitudes...or
working on ways to create decoys for incoming ballistic missiles to use
against enemy ABMs.

Pat

Back in the pre-Redstone days, someone at JPL figured out that a WAC
Corporal with Loki upper stages could, in theory, land an empty beer
can on the Moon.

Andre Lieven wrote:
http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbchron.html

Dear God, somebody knows about that website besides me! ;-)
I wish UFX was still out there.


I would suggest that a rocket that has a maximum velocity
of 3,700 MPH has AbZero ability to place anything into a
17,500 MPH orbit.


A hollow charge projectile can shoot a "thorn" out at around Mach 5, but
that's still far, far short of orbital velocity, particularly given the
fact that the V-2 was launched vertically, so the hollow charge
projectile would have to get all of its horizontal orbital velocity on
its own, after reaching a appropriate height above the atmosphere.

Pat

On Oct 4, 5:27 am, Pat Flannery wrote:
Andre Lieven wrote:
http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbchron.html

Dear God, somebody knows about that website besides me! ;-)

Well, I found out about it by looking for the information that the OP
had asked about. High speed net access is a nifty thing.

I wish UFX was still out there.

?

I would suggest that a rocket that has a maximum velocity
of 3,700 MPH has AbZero ability to place anything into a
17,500 MPH orbit.

A hollow charge projectile can shoot a "thorn" out at around Mach 5,
but that's still far, far short of orbital velocity, particularly given the
fact that the V-2 was launched vertically, so the hollow charge
projectile would have to get all of its horizontal orbital velocity on
its own, after reaching a appropriate height above the atmosphere.

Indeed. Even if the V-2 could have provided about 5,000 MPH of
horizontal velocity ( And, it couldn't, at altitude ), then the
grenades
would have still needed to impart 12,500 MPH more of it. Not possible
then.

So, this was a tale of old female spouses... g

Andre

On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:24:04 -0700, Matt wrote:


Back in the pre-Redstone days, someone at JPL figured out that a WAC
Corporal with Loki upper stages could, in theory, land an empty beer
can on the Moon.

I find that unlikely, technicaly. However, which beer company would
have funded that project?

On Oct 4, 3:19 pm, Alan Jones wrote:
On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:24:04 -0700, Matt wrote:
Back in the pre-Redstone days, someone at JPL figured out that a WAC
Corporal with Loki upper stages could, in theory, land an empty beer
can on the Moon.

I find that unlikely, technicaly. However, which beer company would
have funded that project?

From my back of the envelope calculations, it's utterly impossible.
But it's hard to get good data on the rockets involved. For instance,
what is the empty mass of a Loki?