Boeing Studies X-37B Evolved Crew Derivative

Starting with 6,500 lbs of payload gliding back to Earth (ignoring the
4,000 lb kick stage and consumables) arriving from the moon, lets work
backward and see what we need to start with to send a payload to the
moon.

To travel to Earth from Low Lunar Orbit requires a delta vee of 3,130
mph. With a rocket capable of 9,704 mph exhaust speed (hydrogen
oxygen) this means that we start with 8,975 pounds in lunar orbit
burning 2,475 pounds of propellant 354 pounds of hydrogen and 2,121
pounds of oxygen.

A hydrogen/oxygen rocket belt like an advanced Manned Maneuvering Unit
along with a long duration mechanical counter-pressure spacesuit,
masses 350 pounds, and carrying up to 250 pounds of payload. That's a
total of 600 pounds. To carry 600 pounds 4,025 mph from Low Lunar
Orbit to the Lunar Surface, and then 4,025 mph from Lunar Surface to
Low Lunar Orbit - leaving the OTV in orbit around the moon!

This means that the 600 pound system burns through 468 pounds going
from Lunar Orbit to Lunar Surface and another 309 pounds going from
Surface to Orbit again. That's a total 1,377 pounds taken to lunar
orbit along with the 6,500 pound system discussed above plus the 2,475
pounds of propellant the leave Lunar Orbit. A total of 9,752
pounds.

The 9,752 in Lunar Orbit had t slow by 3,130 mph arriving from Earth
before it entered Lunar Orbit. Using the same hydrogen oxygen rocket
that it used leaving lunar orbit it must burn through 3,713 pounds of
propellant. So, the total mass projected from Earth Orbit is 13,465
pounds.

At Earth orbit, the spacecraft must increase in speed by 9,035 mph to
make it to the moon. With a 9,705 mph exhaust speed this means that
the 13,465 pound payload must burn through 20,692 pounds of
propellant. So, a total of 34,157 pounds of payload must be
orbited.

With the vehicle described previously, we can orbit an OTV or one of
the miniature External Tanks described. These mass 937 pounds and
carry 10,783 pounds of propellant - a total of 11,720 pounds.

Reducing the amount carried to 9,500 pounds capacity - and launching
thre miniature External Tanks into orbit, along with the OTV carrying
a single astronaut inhabiting a Long Duration spacesuit with hydrogen/
oxygen MMU.

We require 4 launches - 3 small External Tanks - 1 OTV with astronaut
inside long duration mechanical counter pressure spacesuit and MMU.

The cryogenic fuels are equipped with a solar powered MEMS based
cryogenic refrigeration unit, to allow long-term storage of cryogenic
fuels in space.

A fleet of three launchers launch in a short period of time three
tanks. A series of three launches over a few days using a fleet of
three launchers, puts up nine tanks. A final launch from each of the
three launchers, puts up three astronauts in three separate OTV
vehicles.

Each set assembles in a linear trio - with the OTV stacked on top of
#2.

(1)(2)(3)

One and three feed propellant to the center tank (the only one with an
engine) and boost from LEO to the moon. After burning through 19,000
pounds of propellant another 1,192 pounds is burned from #2.

Tanks #1 and #3 fly nearly to the moon before falling back to Earth.
There, they enter the atmosphere and are recovered by an aircraft mid
flight.

Meanwhile #2 continues to the moon and burns through 3,713 pounds of
propellant.

Once in Lunar orbit, the astronaut with MMU loads up 777 pounds into
his/her MMU and lands on the lunar surface, burning through 468 pounds
on the way down - in two burns.

After spending some time on the lunar surface, the astronaut leaves
burning another 309 pounds - again in 2 burns rejoining the orbiting
OTV/miniET

The mini-External Tank boosts the astronaut and OTV back to Earth by
burning through the final 2,475 pounds of hydrogen/oxygen propellant.
Arriving at Earth the OTV and mini-ET separate and execute separate re-
entries.

In this way, three people can be sent to the moon.

7 days - accumulate materiel on orbit.
4 days - outbound journey
2 days - on lunar surface
4 days - return journey.

Now, replace one of the three astronautswith 909 pounds of materials
sent one way to the lunar surface in one of the vehicles. Then, two
astronauts can stay for up to 30 days on the lunar surface in a lunar
camp out.

7 days - accumulate materiel on orbit
4 days - outbound journey
30 days - on lunar surface
4 days - return journey

ALL the components are recovered - to be reused - at very low cost!

Charge any of the 10,000 people worth $100 million or more $38 million
to spend 38 days in space - and you will have paid for the astronaut
and the mission - while earning a return on investment.

The whole thing can be built for 21 people paying $38 million each -
three per month - delivered over a 7 month period using Chinese or
Russian hardware.

* * * *

ET Derived Launcher
http://www.scribd.com/doc/31261680/Etdhlrlv-Addendum

Big Moonship
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24390383/mokaerospace-3

Small Moonship
http://www.scribd.com/doc/20053585/M...space-Overview

* * * *

On Oct 7, 9:41*pm, Ed Kyle wrote:
On Oct 7, 7:48*pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

"Jorge R. Frank" wrote in messagenews:PKOdnXv4vdH0EhLTnZ2dnUVZ5q6dnZ2d@gigan ews.com...
Not to me. The X-37b makes perfect sense. It's essentially a scale
version of the shuttle, except it can stay in orbit 8 months, instead
of a week or two. And can make very large changes in it's orbit.
Exactly what the military would need in a war with the Chinese.

When the Chinese shot down their satellite, they showed
that any space hardware already in orbit would be lost
on the first day of a war. So which side can deploy the fastest
after a first strike wins. Just like the X-37b.

I would recommend studying what happened when China (a much weaker
China than today) and the U.S. battled in Korea. *Bloody stalemate
even then. *Mass attacks at night by the sound of bugles on one side,
carpet bombing on the other, neither side giving in. *Piles of dead
Marines, Army soldiers, and Peoples Liberation Army soldiers
everywhere, not to mention all of the civilians. *Then read up on the
Great Patriotic War (we call it WW II) between Germany and the USSR.
27 million dead just on the Soviet side - one in every seven people -
in a total war, which is what a China-U.S. war would be. *O.K. *Take
that and multiply times two, or ten.

No, any war between China and the U.S. would not be decided merely by
an X-37B or two. *It would be decided by bombs and shells and bullets
and knives and fists.

War between these two countries is unthinkable. * China and the U.S.
must remain friends!

*- Ed Kyle

http://www.spacelaunchreport.com

How? Two guys in a rowboat off of the Aleutians?

"Ed Kyle" wrote in message
...


No, any war between China and the U.S. would not be decided merely by
an X-37B or two. It would be decided by bombs and shells and bullets
and knives and fists.


I think the imagined scenario would be Taiwan. And controlling
the air space, the high ground, would be crucial. If we can't
protect some target from incoming missiles and jets, we can't
protect anything. Even ourselves. And that capability also
translates to the ability to shoot down missiles from rogue states
the war on terrorism in general, and even helping spread
democracy. Control of space is essential and the new
military high ground we're determined to master.


National Security Space Policy
http://www.defense.gov/home/features/2011/0111_nsss/


War between these two countries is unthinkable. China and the U.S.
must remain friends!

China must become a democracy, it's inevitable, so the
sooner the better.

I believe 9/11 has essentially started a high tech race for the
military domination of space, from the fixation on surveillance
and collateral damage. And I thnk the problem is the United States
military will soon become technologically ..too far...ahead
of everyone else as a result.

You know that old saying about 'absolute power'?

If you were the Chinese military, and clicked into this page
what would you think?
http://www.afspc.af.mil/units/index.asp



- Ed Kyle

http://www.spacelaunchreport.com

On 08/10/11 14:50, Jonathan wrote:
"Ed wrote in message
...


No, any war between China and the U.S. would not be decided merely by
an X-37B or two. It would be decided by bombs and shells and bullets
and knives and fists.


I think the imagined scenario would be Taiwan. And controlling
the air space, the high ground, would be crucial. If we can't
protect some target from incoming missiles and jets, we can't
protect anything. Even ourselves. And that capability also
translates to the ability to shoot down missiles from rogue states
the war on terrorism in general, and even helping spread
democracy.

As that hasn't yet happened and never looks like happening can you
explain how it spreads democracy?

Control of space is essential and the new
military high ground we're determined to master.

Who's this 'we'.

There isn't any money...


War between these two countries is unthinkable. China and the U.S.
must remain friends!

China must become a democracy, it's inevitable, so the
sooner the better.

I believe 9/11 has essentially started a high tech race for the
military domination of space, from the fixation on surveillance
and collateral damage.

That was the Cold War...

If you were the Chinese military, and clicked into this page
what would you think?
http://www.afspc.af.mil/units/index.asp

That whoever wrote that was being a bit optimistic in their choice of
titles for their units.

Calling the people who run communications systems a 'Space Control
Squadron' is somehow very American...

--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...

On Oct 8, 8:50*am, "Jonathan" wrote:
"Ed Kyle" wrote in message

...

No, any war between China and the U.S. would not be decided merely by
an X-37B or two. *It would be decided by bombs and shells and bullets
and knives and fists.

I think the imagined scenario would be Taiwan. And controlling
the air space, the high ground, would be crucial. ....
Control of space is essential and the new
military high ground we're determined to master.

The U.S. loses in a conventional fight for Taiwan, no matter how you
slice it. Think about it. Taiwan is only about 100 miles from the
China mainland. It would be like China trying to prevent the U.S.
from capturing the Bahamas.

See, for example
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009...aiwan-air-war/

Space is for communications, launch detection, reconnaissance, GPS
signal sourcing, and so forth. These are vital functions, but they
still don't trump 20,000 artillery pieces, 10,000 tanks, 2,500 fighter
jets, 2.25 million foot soldiers, etc.. Witness the much weaker
Taliban (only thought to be the size of 2 or 3 U.S. Army divisions),
still not defeated 10 years on despite having none these space
resources and battling a foe that possess all of them.

Ed Kyle

http://www.spacelaunchreport.com

"William Black" wrote in message
...
On 08/10/11 14:50, Jonathan wrote:
"Ed wrote in message
...


No, any war between China and the U.S. would not be decided merely by
an X-37B or two. It would be decided by bombs and shells and bullets
and knives and fists.


I think the imagined scenario would be Taiwan. And controlling
the air space, the high ground, would be crucial. If we can't
protect some target from incoming missiles and jets, we can't
protect anything. Even ourselves. And that capability also
translates to the ability to shoot down missiles from rogue states
the war on terrorism in general, and even helping spread
democracy.

As that hasn't yet happened and never looks like happening can you explain
how it spreads democracy?



To quote the US Dept of Defense.

A Military Strategy for the New Space Environment

William J. Lynn, III
U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense.

"
Over the Middle East, censorship imposed
by autocratic states has for the first time extended into
the upper reaches of the atmosphere."

"Libya and Iran are the primary offenders, but even less
technologically developed countries such as Ethiopia
have employed jamming technologies for political
purposes."

"Space systems enable our modern way of war. They allow
our warfighters to strike with precision, to navigate with
accuracy, to communicate with certainty, and to see the
battlefield with clarity. Without them, many of our
most important military advantages evaporate."
http://www.defense.gov/home/features/2011/0111_nsss/




Control of space is essential and the new
military high ground we're determined to master.

Who's this 'we'.

Two entire US Space Air Forces, about a dozen US Space Wings
and assorted Space Squadrons, which are listed at the link below.

"More than 46,000 people, including about 21,000 active-duty
military and civilians, 13,000 contractor employees, and about
12,000 reservists and Air National Guardsmen combine
to perform Air Force Space Command missions.
http://www.afspc.af.mil/units/index.asp


While the world has been fixated on all the post 9/11 events.
The US military has been quickly and massively militarizing
space. Includung turning the US manned space program
over to the Pentagon via transferring the shuttle replacement
the X-37b, into the black budget.



There isn't any money...


"... national security space programs comprise ..21 percent of Air Force
investment accounts." "The president's budget request for fiscal 2012
includes a total of $8.76 billion for research, development testing
and evaluation and procurement of Air Force space programs."
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123247455

But remember the X-37b is in the black budget.


"US Forces 'black' budget = 2nd biggest military on Earth
Secret space programme bigger than NASA"

1) Mainstream US armed forces $490bn-odd

2) UK armed forces $60bn

3) Chinese armed forces $58bn

4) French armed forces $54bn

5) "Black" US forces $50bn+

6) Japanese Self-Defence forces $44bn
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05..._black_budget/




War between these two countries is unthinkable. China and the U.S.
must remain friends!


China's military budget rate of growth.
Looks like a race to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PL..._1999-2008.GIF






China must become a democracy, it's inevitable, so the
sooner the better.

I believe 9/11 has essentially started a high tech race for the
military domination of space, from the fixation on surveillance
and collateral damage.

That was the Cold War...

If you were the Chinese military, and clicked into this page
what would you think?
http://www.afspc.af.mil/units/index.asp

That whoever wrote that was being a bit optimistic in their choice of
titles for their units.

Calling the people who run communications systems a 'Space Control
Squadron' is somehow very American...


Funny how so many believe we have all kinds of
things in our secret military budget. But when
we brag, somehow it becomes less believable.

That's ok, in a few years all these various space
systems will come together. And the US will have
the ability to instantly strike anywhere on Earth
in any weather with virtually no collateral damage.
At the push of a button, without leaving
behind a shred of evidence.

With lasers, things will just explode for no
apparent reason.




--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...

On Sat, 8 Oct 2011 09:49:43 -0700 (PDT), Ed Kyle
wrote:

The U.S. loses in a conventional fight for Taiwan, no matter how you
slice it. Think about it. Taiwan is only about 100 miles from the
China mainland. It would be like China trying to prevent the U.S.
from capturing the Bahamas.

But we don't have to win. We just need to make the cost unacceptably
high for China to try and take Taiwan.

See, for example
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009...aiwan-air-war/

"Wired" isn't exactly a reputable source, though. A week or two ago,
that same blog implied that NASA's new SLS rocket is really an
undercover weapon for the Pentagon.

Brian

On 08/10/11 18:34, Jonathan wrote:

That's ok, in a few years all these various space
systems will come together. And the US will have
the ability to instantly strike anywhere on Earth
in any weather with virtually no collateral damage.
At the push of a button, without leaving
behind a shred of evidence.

With lasers, things will just explode for no
apparent reason.

I'll have some of whatever he's smoking...

Only nowhere near as much, and not as often...

--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...

Total development cost - less than $400 million.

Naw folks this is Baal targeting some of the Stargate related
projects. Most the workers and the main force of the project
were relocated at site Gimmel and its related local gates. The
alien ships will soon be in orbit so defeat and enslavement
are assured for the masses other than the 3 million enlighten
ones already gone from our midst.

I think some over estimate humanity in their wilder dreams.........Trig

On 10/08/2011 04:05 PM, Brian Thorn wrote:
On Sat, 8 Oct 2011 09:49:43 -0700 (PDT), Ed Kyle
wrote:

The U.S. loses in a conventional fight for Taiwan, no matter how you
slice it. Think about it. Taiwan is only about 100 miles from the
China mainland. It would be like China trying to prevent the U.S.
from capturing the Bahamas.

But we don't have to win. We just need to make the cost unacceptably
high for China to try and take Taiwan.

See, for example
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009...aiwan-air-war/

"Wired" isn't exactly a reputable source, though. A week or two ago,
that same blog implied that NASA's new SLS rocket is really an
undercover weapon for the Pentagon.

Right. Wired was never a reputable source for any story other than
computer technology, and even in that field they've lost a considerable
amount of credibility since the turn of the century.