Ares-1 second stage MYSTERY

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Could a crane with HALF its max power lift TWICE the weight???
Clearly, it CAN'T.

But that's EXACTLY what "should" happen with the (latest) Ares-1
second stage!!!

The problem is explained in detail in my new article "Ares-1 second
stage MYSTERY"

http://www.ghostnasa.com/posts/017aresmystery.html

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In article
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gaetanomarano wrote:

Could a crane with HALF its max power lift TWICE the weight???
Clearly, it CAN'T.

Sure it can. It can't necessarily do it as quickly, but the total
amount lifted is a matter of energy, not of power.

On Dec 26, 3:52*am, Alan Anderson wrote:

Sure it can. *It can't necessarily do it as quickly, but the total
amount lifted is a matter of energy, not of power.

a crane can do it slicing the load in many smaller parts

but it can't lift more than its max load per part

a rocket work at its max load and can't slice and lift the payload in
two parts...

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On Dec 25, 8:37 pm, gaetanomarano wrote:
.

Could a crane with HALF its max power lift TWICE the weight???
Clearly, it CAN'T.

But that's EXACTLY what "should" happen with the (latest) Ares-1
second stage!!!

The problem is explained in detail in my new article "Ares-1 second
stage MYSTERY"

http://www.ghostnasa.com/posts/017aresmystery.html


1. Launch vehicles are not cranes and so your analogy is wrong

2. For upperstages, the thrust of the engine does not have to be near
the weight of the stage. The Delta-IV upperstage weighs over 60k lbs,
yet the upperstage engine has only 20k lb of thrust.

As for answers, you get them all the time but you choose to ignore
them

On Dec 26, 8:10 am, wrote:
On Dec 25, 8:37 pm, gaetanomarano wrote:

.

Could a crane with HALF its max power lift TWICE the weight???
Clearly, it CAN'T.

But that's EXACTLY what "should" happen with the (latest) Ares-1
second stage!!!

The problem is explained in detail in my new article "Ares-1 second
stage MYSTERY"

http://www.ghostnasa.com/posts/017aresmystery.html

1. Launch vehicles are not cranes and so your analogy is wrong

2. For upperstages, the thrust of the engine does not have to be near
the weight of the stage. The Delta-IV upperstage weighs over 60k lbs,
yet the upperstage engine has only 20k lb of thrust.

As for answers, you get them all the time but you choose to ignore
them

The Saturn IB second stage weighed 256k lb and the J-2 thrust was 225k
lb. There was also the Apollo spacecraft weight on top too

On Dec 26, 2:17*pm, wrote:

The Saturn IB second stage weighed 256k lb and the J-2 thrust was 225k
lb. *There was also the Apollo spacecraft weight on top too

BOTH your example are WRONG since a second or third stage engine could
have a low thrust only if it burns at very high altitude when the
rocket has already reached a close-to-orbital speed, while, the Ares-1
SRB is jettisoned t 55 km. and lower speed, then, it needs a powerful
engine to reach the orbit, that's why the early CLV was designed
around the SSME

the problem is that a 5th segment "could" add more thrust (then,
"should" lift more upperstages' mass) but no more burning time nor
more speed, then, the Ares-1 2nd stage engine MUST have the SAME power
of an SSME to carry a 10 mT heavier upperstages' mass

.

gaetanomarano wrote:

On Dec 26, 3:52*am, Alan Anderson wrote:

Sure it can. *It can't necessarily do it as quickly, but the total
amount lifted is a matter of energy, not of power.

a crane can do it slicing the load in many smaller parts

You didn't understand. A given crane can lift the same maximum load at
one time regardless of how much power its engine provides. More power
permits it to lift it faster, but it can lift exactly the same tonnage
using a donkey on a treadmill as it can using a gas turbine.

but it can't lift more than its max load per part

The maximum load of a crane is a matter of structural strength and force
applied through the cable, not of energy or power.

a rocket work at its max load and can't slice and lift the payload in
two parts...

A rocket's maximum load is related to its maximum thrust. Look at the
thrust provided by the two engines you're talking about. Don't worry
about their relative output; look at the actual numbers. You'll find
that the original was overpowered for the task, and the one described
now is adequate.

gaetanomarano wrote:
On Dec 26, 2:17 pm, wrote:

The Saturn IB second stage weighed 256k lb and the J-2 thrust was 225k
lb. There was also the Apollo spacecraft weight on top too

BOTH your example are WRONG since a second or third stage engine could
have a low thrust only if it burns at very high altitude when the
rocket has already reached a close-to-orbital speed, while, the Ares-1
SRB is jettisoned t 55 km. and lower speed, then, it needs a powerful
engine to reach the orbit, that's why the early CLV was designed
around the SSME

the problem is that a 5th segment "could" add more thrust (then,
"should" lift more upperstages' mass) but no more burning time nor
more speed, then, the Ares-1 2nd stage engine MUST have the SAME power
of an SSME to carry a 10 mT heavier upperstages' mass

Well, during these Christmas holidays, it's the spirit that counts.

You want problems? Try an SSME shredding itself to pieces at 8 gees.

On 26 Dic, 16:07, Alan Anderson wrote:

The maximum load of a crane is a matter of structural strength and force
applied through the cable, not of energy or power.

well, so, if the Ares-1 don't work, we can use a crane to launch the
Orion...

the SSME choice was a multi-years study while the J-2X is a LAST
MINUTE change

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On Dec 26, 11:37 am, gaetanomarano wrote:
On 26 Dic, 16:07, Alan Anderson wrote:

The maximum load of a crane is a matter of structural strength and force
applied through the cable, not of energy or power.

well, so, if the Ares-1 don't work, we can use a crane to launch the
Orion...

the SSME choice was a multi-years study while the J-2X is a LAST
MINUTE change



As usual, you are wrong on all accounts.

The SSME choice was NOT a multi-year study. Because it was not
throughly studied, the SSME was found not to be good as an upperstage
engine