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From Russia, Without Love



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 15th 03, 06:11 AM
Rand Simberg
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Default From Russia, Without Love

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:46:55 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
(ed kyle) made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:

(Rand Simberg) wrote in message ...
...is the title of this week's Fox News column, in which I discuss the
difference between the Russian and American space programs, and
propose moving ISS into a useful orbit.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,102931,00.html

By my figuring, it would take 322 tonnes of storable
propellant (OMS-type, ISP=316 sec) to impose the
suggested 3,100 meter per second plane change on the
187 tonne ISS. It would take 14 EELV Heavy or 17 STS
launches just to haul up the propellant! A bit more
than $1 billion for that.


You assume that it will be done with American vehicles.

Probably cheaper to put a
completely new space station into the 28 degree orbit.


Perhaps, but not if it cost anywhere near as much as this one...

Though it doesn't necessarily have to come down to 28 degrees. Even
bringing it down to forty would be a big improvement, which would
halve the cost.

--
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
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  #12  
Old November 15th 03, 07:29 AM
Pat Flannery
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Default From Russia, Without Love

Rand Simberg wrote:


As for changing the inclination, it is an interesting idea. Chemical
rockets obviously wouldn't do it for anything close to $1 billion.



I think they would actually, as long as you purchased from the
Russians. Of course, after the first few, you'd have to launch them
from Kourou, but as I understand, that deal only costs about three
hundred million or so.



I don't think this is a very good idea, as it still doesn't solve the
basic problem of the ISS not being much use for anything (except in my
"artificial reef near Pago-Pago" plan); but if you were going to do
this, then I would suggest that ion engines be used. You save a lot of
weight in propellants, while getting more test time for ion motors which
can be used in regard to future space missions- as well as giving the
ISS a on-board ability to boost its own orbit without the need for other
spacecraft to give it a nudge due to orbital decay.

Pat

  #13  
Old November 15th 03, 08:29 AM
Rand Simberg
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Default From Russia, Without Love

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 22:29:04 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Pat Flannery made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

I don't think this is a very good idea, as it still doesn't solve the
basic problem of the ISS not being much use for anything (except in my
"artificial reef near Pago-Pago" plan);


It renders it slightly useful, rather than almost totally unuseful.

but if you were going to do
this, then I would suggest that ion engines be used. You save a lot of
weight in propellants, while getting more test time for ion motors which
can be used in regard to future space missions- as well as giving the
ISS a on-board ability to boost its own orbit without the need for other
spacecraft to give it a nudge due to orbital decay.


I've no objection to that, though you can only use them for a fraction
of the orbit.

--
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
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Here's my email address for autospammers:

  #14  
Old November 15th 03, 09:58 AM
Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker
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Default From Russia, Without Love

Am Fri, 14 Nov 2003 23:29:06 -0800 (PST) schrieb "Rand Simberg":

I don't think this is a very good idea, as it still doesn't solve the
basic problem of the ISS not being much use for anything (except in my
"artificial reef near Pago-Pago" plan);


It renders it slightly useful, rather than almost totally unuseful.


Sorry. I don't see the point. Which "slightly usefulness" do you want
to achieve with that? Is it really an increase in usefulness? Is that
worth its cost and negative side effects?



cu, ZiLi aka HKZL (Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker)
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  #15  
Old November 15th 03, 10:48 AM
Pat Flannery
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Default From Russia, Without Love

Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker wrote:



It renders it slightly useful, rather than almost totally unuseful.



Sorry. I don't see the point. Which "slightly usefulness" do you want
to achieve with that? Is it really an increase in usefulness? Is that
worth its cost and negative side effects?



I'm still trying to figure out the meaning of the term "totally
unuseful"; wouldn't a more straightforward way of saying this be
"totally useless"? (hell, "unuseful" isn't even in spellcheck.) Off to
The Columbia School Of Journalism's remedial summer school courses with
you, Mr. Simberg! And take off that fedora- it looks silly on Mr.
Drudge, and it looks silly on you. :-)

Mr. Cronkite, Guidance Counselor

  #16  
Old November 15th 03, 02:59 PM
CL Vancil
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Default From Russia, Without Love

(ed kyle) wrote in message . com...
h (Rand Simberg) wrote in message ...
...is the title of this week's Fox News column, in which I discuss the
difference between the Russian and American space programs, and
propose moving ISS into a useful orbit.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,102931,00.html

By my figuring, it would take 322 tonnes of storable
propellant (OMS-type, ISP=316 sec) to impose the
suggested 3,100 meter per second plane change on the
187 tonne ISS. It would take 14 EELV Heavy or 17 STS
launches just to haul up the propellant! A bit more
than $1 billion for that. Probably cheaper to put a
completely new space station into the 28 degree orbit.


Yes, or a dozen Shuttle-Cs...just another use for heavier lift.

--Chris Vancil

  #17  
Old November 15th 03, 03:09 PM
Eric Chomko
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Default From Russia, Without Love

LooseChanj ) wrote:
: On or about Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:53:08 -0800 (PST), Eric Chomko
: made the sensational claim that:
: Excuse me, but what is a "recovering aerospace engineer"?

: I expect it's a lot like a recovering alcoholic.

So is this forum in effect his 12 step program?

Eric

: --
: This is a siggy | To E-mail, do note | This space is for rent
: It's properly formatted | who you mean to reply-to | Inquire within if you
: No person, none, care | and it will reach me | Would like your ad here

  #18  
Old November 15th 03, 04:03 PM
Rand Simberg
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Default From Russia, Without Love

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 00:58:10 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

Am Fri, 14 Nov 2003 23:29:06 -0800 (PST) schrieb "Rand Simberg":

I don't think this is a very good idea, as it still doesn't solve the
basic problem of the ISS not being much use for anything (except in my
"artificial reef near Pago-Pago" plan);


It renders it slightly useful, rather than almost totally unuseful.


Sorry. I don't see the point. Which "slightly usefulness" do you want
to achieve with that? Is it really an increase in usefulness?


Yes.

Is that
worth its cost and negative side effects?


Probably, since there are no negative side effects other than reduced
earth viewing, if the Russians launch from Kourou.

--
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
Swap the first . and @ and throw out the ".trash" to email me.
Here's my email address for autospammers:

 




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