Does anyone doubt theres life beyond earth?

"Sylvia Else" wrote in message ...

And while I'm sure you've heard of it, google Fermi Paradox

Although the answer to that may just be that it's too damned difficult both
to travel between the stars, and to make oneself noticed by other means.


Oh by no means is absence of proof mean proof of absence, but it does make
one wonder.

I mean there are a LOT of answers to the Fermi Paradox.

It could be we are the first.
It could be that spacetravel is just too hard, no matter what level of
intelligence.
It could be that intelligent species end up wiping themselves out (nuclear
war, genetically engineered superbug)
It could be that intelligent species invent the ultraInternet and jack in
and upload and never see any reason to leave home.
It could be reasons we've never thought of (or can't even think of.)

I often wonder if there's some "physics" dead-end. i.e. every race
eventually tries to build some physics experiment, but doesn't fully
understand the level of physics they're playing with and end up wiping
themselves out in a blackhole or the like (along the lines of the fears of
the microblackholes feared by the LHC).


Maybe if we were more intelligence we'd see ways, but here's the rub -
evolution gave us intelligence because it helped us survive a severe
drought in Africa, not so that we could become a starfaring race. Once we'd
evolved the intelligence required to cope, we stopped evolving in that
direction.

Any other race would likely face the same obstacle.

Sylvia.





--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net

Greg (Strider) Moore wrote:
"Doug Freyburger" wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:

Maybe if we were more intelligence we'd see ways, but here's the rub -
evolution gave us intelligence because it helped us survive a severe
drought in Africa, not so that we could become a starfaring race ...

There is the hope of genetic engineering. When/if it becomes regularly
available a large number of parents will want their children to have
more intelligence because there is a high correlation between below
average intelligence and lack of success in life ...

Except there's no real proof that intelligence guarantees success any better
than other evolutionary strategies.

Within humanity there is only correlation that low intelligence goes
with low material success. Once a bit above average in intellegence the
correlation becomes very poor.

If you look at almost any numbers, I'd say microbes are by far more
successful.

They'd had a lot more time.

There's a very real chance that intelligence could end up as an evolutionary
dead-end.

Could be. Time will tell.

If nothing else, only humans seem to have come up ways that could pretty
much wipe ourselves out.

Plenty of other species have gone extinct. I bet plenty figured out
ways to cause it themselves in various ways.

On Sunday, June 10, 2012 7:19:04 PM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:
anyone? and why?

Prove the flying spaghetti monster does not exist.

"Doug Freyburger" wrote in message ...

Greg (Strider) Moore wrote:
"Doug Freyburger" wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:

Maybe if we were more intelligence we'd see ways, but here's the rub -
evolution gave us intelligence because it helped us survive a severe
drought in Africa, not so that we could become a starfaring race ...

There is the hope of genetic engineering. When/if it becomes regularly
available a large number of parents will want their children to have
more intelligence because there is a high correlation between below
average intelligence and lack of success in life ...

Except there's no real proof that intelligence guarantees success any
better
than other evolutionary strategies.

Within humanity there is only correlation that low intelligence goes
with low material success. Once a bit above average in intellegence the
correlation becomes very poor.

Material success is hardly the only or even best criteria. Hell, it appears
the more education one has, the less off-spring they have.

Note the birth-rates in some "1st-world" countries have fallen BELOW
replacement numbers. It seems that intelligent people are willing to breed
themselves out of existence. ;-)


If you look at almost any numbers, I'd say microbes are by far more
successful.

They'd had a lot more time.

So? The point is they're in more niches and there's more of them. There's
only ONE known intelligent species on Earth.


There's a very real chance that intelligence could end up as an
evolutionary
dead-end.

Could be. Time will tell.

If nothing else, only humans seem to have come up ways that could pretty
much wipe ourselves out.

Plenty of other species have gone extinct. I bet plenty figured out
ways to cause it themselves in various ways.

I'd doubt it. Figuring out a way to cause oneself to go extinct requires
intelligence. We don't know of any other species that has reached sentience
here on Earth.




--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net

I'd doubt it. *Figuring out a way to cause oneself to go extinct requires
intelligence. *We don't know of any other species that has reached sentience
here on Earth.

Greg D. Moore


thats simple, just fail to reproduce....

humans extinct........ cause failure to reproduce

"bob haller" wrote in message
...


I'd doubt it. Figuring out a way to cause oneself to go extinct requires
intelligence. We don't know of any other species that has reached
sentience
here on Earth.

Greg D. Moore


thats simple, just fail to reproduce....

humans extinct........ cause failure to reproduce

And your response at times makes me wonder if you're a failed AI.

Seriously.

What the hell are you trying to say here.




--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net

"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
On 12/06/2012 7:29 AM, jonathan wrote:
"Sylvia wrote in message
...
And while I'm sure you've heard of it, google Fermi Paradox

Although the answer to that may just be that it's too damned difficult
both to travel between the stars, and to make oneself noticed by other
means.

Maybe if we were more intelligence we'd see ways, but here's the rub -
evolution gave us intelligence because it helped us survive a severe
drought in Africa, not so that we could become a starfaring race. Once
we'd evolved the intelligence required to cope, we stopped evolving in
that direction.


I still can't believe how few people have a basic
understanding of evolution. Evolutionary events
follow a power-law distribution. Which is analogous
to an earthquake, countless minor events leading up
to the rare 'big one'. You just described one
of those big ones as happening at a 'critical point'.
Where some system is on the edge or tipping point
for it's survival, and suddenly, as if like magic, along
comes intelligence and now the Earth can sustain
orders of magnitude more life than before.

Intelligence opened up an enormous new possibility
space to explore, wide open and without any natural
competition to slow the expansion.

Well here we are at another of those 'critical points'.
And along comes things like the Internet, connecting
billions of individual minds into a massively parallel
network.

We're in the middle of the next great evolutionary step!
The rare 'big one'.

Evolution works on individuals.


So you've missed the last ten years of advances
in mathematics if you still believe that. The new
non-linear math of Complexity Science has placed
the properties of evolution in ...abstract form.

Evolution is a universal process, common to all
complex systems whether living, physical or even
platonic. They apply across all scales, space and time.
An infinitely nested set of systems all behaving as any
ecosystem, reinforcing each other with relentless niche-filling
leading to emergent self-tuning properties.

Intelligence is just the highest expression of emergence.
But we see the same type of emergent creations everywhere.
Light is an emergent property, like intelligence, so is
a star, a solar system, a planet, the atmosphere, the first
microbe, the first metazoan, the first plant and first mammal,
and every idea, all emergent creations from the same
evolutionary process which gave us intelligence.


For higher intelligence to arise, it has to provide a benefit to the
individual, in terms of reproductive success.

Emergence arises from the critical interaction of
an information rich system. At the critical point
network complexity explodes, leading to the
next large evolutionary step.


I see no evidence that this is true at the moment. Indeed, the lower birth
rates amongst people of higher intelligence suggests exactly the opposite.

You're misinterpreting that trend, as a system becomes
more stable and evolved, it has a better ability to
live within it's means. Explosive population growth
is declining as democracy or civilization spreads.
This is a healthy trend.

We may be seeing a gradual decline in intelligence.


Intelligence isn't limited to the more prosperous societies.


This may progress to the point where it creates a crisis in the form of an
inability to sustain our technological society.


As democracy/nature/education/evolution continues, our ability
to create and sustain ourselves will only increase.


What happens then is anyone's bet.


The math is clear, humanity is destined to swim in beauty!


Jonathan


s











Sylvia.

On Monday, June 11, 2012 6:25:50 PM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 12/06/2012 7:29 AM, jonathan wrote:
"Sylvia wrote in message
...
And while I'm sure you've heard of it, google Fermi Paradox

Although the answer to that may just be that it's too damned difficult
both to travel between the stars, and to make oneself noticed by other
means.

Maybe if we were more intelligence we'd see ways, but here's the rub -
evolution gave us intelligence because it helped us survive a severe
drought in Africa, not so that we could become a starfaring race. Once
we'd evolved the intelligence required to cope, we stopped evolving in
that direction.


I still can't believe how few people have a basic
understanding of evolution. Evolutionary events
follow a power-law distribution. Which is analogous
to an earthquake, countless minor events leading up
to the rare 'big one'. You just described one
of those big ones as happening at a 'critical point'.
Where some system is on the edge or tipping point
for it's survival, and suddenly, as if like magic, along
comes intelligence and now the Earth can sustain
orders of magnitude more life than before.

Intelligence opened up an enormous new possibility
space to explore, wide open and without any natural
competition to slow the expansion.

Well here we are at another of those 'critical points'.
And along comes things like the Internet, connecting
billions of individual minds into a massively parallel
network.

We're in the middle of the next great evolutionary step!
The rare 'big one'.

Evolution works on individuals. For higher intelligence to arise, it has
to provide a benefit to the individual, in terms of reproductive
success. I see no evidence that this is true at the moment. Indeed, the
lower birth rates amongst people of higher intelligence suggests exactly
the opposite. We may be seeing a gradual decline in intelligence. This
may progress to the point where it creates a crisis in the form of an
inability to sustain our technological society. What happens then is
anyone's bet.

Sylvia.



On Monday, June 11, 2012 6:25:50 PM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 12/06/2012 7:29 AM, jonathan wrote:
"Sylvia wrote in message
...
And while I'm sure you've heard of it, google Fermi Paradox

Although the answer to that may just be that it's too damned difficult
both to travel between the stars, and to make oneself noticed by other
means.

Maybe if we were more intelligence we'd see ways, but here's the rub -
evolution gave us intelligence because it helped us survive a severe
drought in Africa, not so that we could become a starfaring race. Once
we'd evolved the intelligence required to cope, we stopped evolving in
that direction.


I still can't believe how few people have a basic
understanding of evolution. Evolutionary events
follow a power-law distribution. Which is analogous
to an earthquake, countless minor events leading up
to the rare 'big one'. You just described one
of those big ones as happening at a 'critical point'.
Where some system is on the edge or tipping point
for it's survival, and suddenly, as if like magic, along
comes intelligence and now the Earth can sustain
orders of magnitude more life than before.

Intelligence opened up an enormous new possibility
space to explore, wide open and without any natural
competition to slow the expansion.

Well here we are at another of those 'critical points'.
And along comes things like the Internet, connecting
billions of individual minds into a massively parallel
network.

We're in the middle of the next great evolutionary step!
The rare 'big one'.

Evolution works on individuals. For higher intelligence to arise, it has
to provide a benefit to the individual, in terms of reproductive
success. I see no evidence that this is true at the moment. Indeed, the
lower birth rates amongst people of higher intelligence suggests exactly
the opposite. We may be seeing a gradual decline in intelligence. This
may progress to the point where it creates a crisis in the form of an
inability to sustain our technological society. What happens then is
anyone's bet.

Sylvia.

We need not worry, society and economic order is becoming ever more
Darwinian.

Koch the drink of the new smaller generation..............Trig

On 14/06/2012 7:03 AM, jonathan wrote:
"Sylvia wrote in message
...
On 12/06/2012 7:29 AM, jonathan wrote:
"Sylvia wrote in message
...
And while I'm sure you've heard of it, google Fermi Paradox

Although the answer to that may just be that it's too damned difficult
both to travel between the stars, and to make oneself noticed by other
means.

Maybe if we were more intelligence we'd see ways, but here's the rub -
evolution gave us intelligence because it helped us survive a severe
drought in Africa, not so that we could become a starfaring race. Once
we'd evolved the intelligence required to cope, we stopped evolving in
that direction.


I still can't believe how few people have a basic
understanding of evolution. Evolutionary events
follow a power-law distribution. Which is analogous
to an earthquake, countless minor events leading up
to the rare 'big one'. You just described one
of those big ones as happening at a 'critical point'.
Where some system is on the edge or tipping point
for it's survival, and suddenly, as if like magic, along
comes intelligence and now the Earth can sustain
orders of magnitude more life than before.

Intelligence opened up an enormous new possibility
space to explore, wide open and without any natural
competition to slow the expansion.

Well here we are at another of those 'critical points'.
And along comes things like the Internet, connecting
billions of individual minds into a massively parallel
network.

We're in the middle of the next great evolutionary step!
The rare 'big one'.

Evolution works on individuals.


So you've missed the last ten years of advances
in mathematics if you still believe that. The new
non-linear math of Complexity Science has placed
the properties of evolution in ...abstract form.

snipped rest of the pseudo scientific gobbledegook

If you've something to say, then say it.

Sylvia.

"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
On 14/06/2012 7:03 AM, jonathan wrote:


snipped rest of the pseudo scientific gobbledegook

If you've something to say, then say it.


Gobbledygook? So that's how that word is spelled~

Maybe I shouldn't use my own words. The following quote
is from a textbook on Complexity Science taught at MIT
at the graduate level. If you read through the following
quotes, then you'll see this is a brand new science that's
sweeping through all the fields as we speak.
ALL of them.

Just google....complexity science and _______
and place any subject at all in the blanks.

Dynamics of Complex Systems

"The study of complex systems in a unified framework has become
recognized in recent years as a new scientific discipline, the ultimate
of interdisciplinary fields. Breaking down the barriers between
physics, chemistry and biology and the so-called soft sciences of
psychology, sociology, economics, and anthropology, this text
explores the universal physical and mathematical principles
that govern the emergence of complex systems from simple
components."
http://www.necsi.org/publications/dcs/


Now how is it possible for a ....single...mathematics derived
from....BIOLOGY...can apply with equal to validity to
all the entirely different disciplines listed above???

Doesn't that make anyone curious? Don't you want to know
how to analyze a society the same way as a galaxy, a business
or a goal? The Complex Adaptive System provides a
universal template for all of reality.

Examples.....

(particle physics)

Los Alamos
The Institute for Complex Adaptive Matter
http://www.icam-i2cam.org/

(sociology)

Sociology and Complexity Science: A New Field of Inquiry
(Understanding Complex Systems
http://www.amazon.com/Sociology-Comp.../dp/3540884610


(cosmology)

Steinhardt
Director, Princeton Center for Theoretical Physics
http://wwwphy.princeton.edu/~steinh/...cosmology.html

(public health)

Canadian Institutes of Health Research (CIHR)

"The purpose of this research is to conduct a synthesis of the diverse
literature on complexity science (including complex adaptive systems
and systems thinking) with particular attention to literature in the social
and political sciences, public health, health care, organizational
development, health information science, health geography,
economics, and education."
http://www.uvic.ca/research/groups/c...xity/index.php


Courses in complexity science

Fully-funded PhD places are available at the new Institute for Complex
Systems Simulation. The Institute pursues complex systems research
spanning engineering, computer science, mathematics, and the
physical, natural and life sciences.

Doctoral Training Centres

a.. Complexity Science
Related Areas
a.. University of Southampton: Institute for Complex Systems Simulation
b.. University of Warwick: Complexity Complex
c.. University of Bristol: Bristol Centre for Complexity Sciences
d.. Large Scale Complex IT Systems: LSCITS
a.. More doctoral training centres here.

Masters Programmes

a.. Complexity Science

a.. University of Birmingham: MSc Natural Computation
b.. University of Edinburgh: MSc Informatics
c.. University of Essex: MSc Agent-Based Computational
Economics & E-Markets
d.. University of Leeds: MSc Cognitive Systems
e.. University of Liverpool: MSc Biosystems and Informatics
f.. University of Loughborough: MSc in Advanced Systems Engineering
g.. University of Manchester: MSc Computational Neuroscience and
Neuroinformatics
h.. University of Oxford: MSc Bioinformatics
i.. University of Portsmouth: MSc Mobile Robotics
j.. University of Surrey: MSc Mathematical Biology
k.. University of Sussex: MSc Evolutionary and Adaptive Systems
l.. University of York: MSc Natural Computation
m.. University of York: MRes Computational Biology
Bio-inspired Computation, Systems Biology, and Computational Finance
a.. Imperial College London: MSc Bioinformatics and Theoretical Systems
Biology
b.. University of Essex: MSc Computational Finance
c.. University College London: MSc Financial Computing
d.. University of Warwick: MSc Systems Biology
http://www.complexity.ecs.soton.ac.uk/courses.php


And when the day comes you understand the concepts
enough to realize what's the ...common....element among
all the above subjects.....all visible order...including life, you'd
be well advised to be sitting down at the time.

The Universe will never look the same again.


Jonathan


s
















Sylvia.