A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Astronomy and Astrophysics » Amateur Astronomy
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Coincidence of meteor strike and close asteroid approach at same time.



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old February 28th 13, 08:38 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.math,sci.astro.amateur
Robert Clark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,150
Default Coincidence of meteor strike and close asteroid approach at same time.

On Feb 27, 1:33*pm, wrote:
In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote:

That video I linked to previously and ones like it may also be able
to address this question:


An Asteroid's Parting Shot.
By Phil Plait
Posted Tuesday, Feb. 19, 2013, at 8:00 AM
http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astro...r_earth_astero...


The video shows 2012 DA14 slowing moving through the frame, and
meteors and artificial satellites streaking rapidly through the frame.
Assuming we are able to distinguish the satellites, perhaps by
knowing already their positions, perhaps we can determine if the
number of meteors shown here are higher than normal.
Better would be longer exposures that include at least the time
period of the Russian meteor impact.


*Bob Clark


While people here have been speculating all sorts of nonsense, astronomers
from the University of Antioquia in Medellin, Colombia have figured out
where the Russian meteor came from and that it has no relationship to
the other close passing asteroid.

http://www.space.com/19974-russian-m...igin-size.html



The Fireballs of February.
Feb. 22, 2012
....
"They all hail from the asteroid belt—but not from a single location
in the asteroid belt," he says. "There is no common source for these
fireballs, which is puzzling."
"This isn't the first time sky watchers have noticed odd fireballs in
February. In fact, the "Fireballs of February" are a bit of a legend
in meteor circles.
"Brown explains: "Back in the 1960s and 70s, amateur astronomers
noticed an increase in the number of bright, sound-producing deep-
penetrating fireballs during the month of February. The numbers seemed
significant, especially when you consider that there are few people
outside at night in winter. Follow-up studies in the late 1980s
suggested no big increase in the rate of February fireballs.
Nevertheless, we've always wondered if something was going on."
"Indeed, a 1990 study by astronomer Ian Holliday suggests that the
'February Fireballs' are real. He analyzed photographic records of
about a thousand fireballs from the 1970s and 80s and found evidence
for a fireball stream intersecting Earth's orbit in February. He also
found signs of fireball streams in late summer and fall. The results
are controversial, however. Even Halliday recognized some big
statistical uncertainties in his results."
....
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news...uaryfireballs/

Note this was from last year, not this year in regard to this
February's unusual meteor and asteroid encounters. But what's key is
the article notes this has been noticed in other February's.
The article suggests greater number of fireballs in February. It also
mentions they are typically slow, long-lasting, and penetrate deep in
the atmosphere. I don't know about the slow part, but the long-lasting
and deep penetration aspects could be due to larger meteors during
February's.
If there is an association with the 2012 DA14 asteroid, then since
it has approximately a year long orbit, this could explain why the
fireballs are seen frequently in February. Note it was discovered
last year in February also during a close approach.
Also notable as Steve Willner mentioned the two orbital crossings
could result in rather close approaches on the second crossing as
well:

On Feb 26, 1:56 pm, (Steve Willner) wrote:
...

Does this mean there are two close approaches per orbit? It doesn't
necessarily have to be since where the two orbits "cross" does not
mean the two bodies have to be there at the same time.


Yes, exactly. Typically one body will be far away when the other is
near a crossing point.

if they are close at one "crossing" point, they should be
relatively close at the other.


About half a day away at the next crossing point, given the period of
366.24 days. That's about 400 Earth radii if I've done the
arithmetic right. The distance is cumulative, so a simple estimate
is that it will take another 366 years (365 orbits for the asteroid)
before there's another close approach. However, the recent Earth
encounter must have changed the orbit, so the simple estimate is
probably wrong. There are also likely to be non-gravitational
effects. This object is probably not one to worry about in the near
term, but this sort of rough estimate is no substitute for a proper
orbit calculation.


This could explain the observation of Halliday that there seems to be
a statistical increase also in late Summer and Fall.

In any case, the Air Force needs to release its satellite detections
of these fireballs. For one thing they might be able to detect the
meteors before they have any appreciable interaction with the
atmosphere. For large meteors, of oblong shape, the atmospheric
interaction could alter their direction, thus giving a misleading
interpretation of their original orbits.

For many people the Air Force not sharing all the technical means at
its disposal led to the loss of the shuttle Columbia crew. It must not
be said that its keeping its meteor detections capability secret led
to the loss of an entire city.

Bob Clark
  #2  
Old February 28th 13, 08:43 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.math,sci.astro.amateur
Brad Guth[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15,175
Default Coincidence of meteor strike and close asteroid approach at same time.

On Feb 28, 11:38*am, Robert Clark wrote:
On Feb 27, 1:33*pm, wrote:









In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote:


That video I linked to previously and ones like it may also be able
to address this question:


An Asteroid's Parting Shot.
By Phil Plait
Posted Tuesday, Feb. 19, 2013, at 8:00 AM
http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astro...r_earth_astero....


The video shows 2012 DA14 slowing moving through the frame, and
meteors and artificial satellites streaking rapidly through the frame..
Assuming we are able to distinguish the satellites, perhaps by
knowing already their positions, perhaps we can determine if the
number of meteors shown here are higher than normal.
Better would be longer exposures that include at least the time
period of the Russian meteor impact.


*Bob Clark


While people here have been speculating all sorts of nonsense, astronomers
from the University of Antioquia in Medellin, Colombia have figured out
where the Russian meteor came from and that it has no relationship to
the other close passing asteroid.


http://www.space.com/19974-russian-m...igin-size.html


The Fireballs of February.
Feb. 22, 2012
...
"They all hail from the asteroid belt—but not from a single location
in the asteroid belt," he says. "There is no common source for these
fireballs, which is puzzling."
"This isn't the first time sky watchers have noticed odd fireballs in
February. In fact, the "Fireballs of February" are a bit of a legend
in meteor circles.
"Brown explains: "Back in the 1960s and 70s, amateur astronomers
noticed an increase in the number of bright, sound-producing deep-
penetrating fireballs during the month of February. The numbers seemed
significant, especially when you consider that there are few people
outside at night in winter. Follow-up studies in the late 1980s
suggested no big increase in the rate of February fireballs.
Nevertheless, we've always wondered if something was going on."
"Indeed, a 1990 study by astronomer Ian Holliday suggests that the
'February Fireballs' are real. He analyzed photographic records of
about a thousand fireballs from the 1970s and 80s and found evidence
for a fireball stream intersecting Earth's orbit in February. He also
found signs of fireball streams in late summer and fall. The results
are controversial, however. Even Halliday recognized some big
statistical uncertainties in his results."
...http://science.nasa.gov/science-news...12/22feb_febru....

*Note this was from last year, not this year in regard to this
February's *unusual meteor and asteroid encounters. But what's key is
the article notes this has been noticed in other February's.
*The article suggests greater number of fireballs in February. It also
mentions they are typically slow, long-lasting, and penetrate deep in
the atmosphere. I don't know about the slow part, but the long-lasting
and deep penetration aspects could be due to larger meteors during
February's.
*If there is an association with the 2012 DA14 asteroid, then since
it *has approximately a year long orbit, this could explain why the
fireballs *are seen frequently in February. Note it was discovered
last year in February also during a close approach.
*Also notable as Steve Willner mentioned the two orbital crossings
could result in rather close approaches on the second crossing as
well:

On Feb 26, 1:56 pm, (Steve Willner) wrote:









...


*Does this mean there are two close approaches per orbit? It doesn't
necessarily have to be since where the two orbits "cross" does not
mean the two bodies have to be there at the same time.


Yes, exactly. *Typically one body will be far away when the other is
near a crossing point.


*if they are close at one "crossing" point, they should be
relatively close at the other.


About half a day away at the next crossing point, given the period of
366.24 days. *That's about 400 Earth radii if I've done the
arithmetic right. *The distance is cumulative, so a simple estimate
is that it will take another 366 years (365 orbits for the asteroid)
before there's another close approach. *However, the recent Earth
encounter must have changed the orbit, so the simple estimate is
probably wrong. *There are also likely to be non-gravitational
effects. *This object is probably not one to worry about in the near
term, but this sort of rough estimate is no substitute for a proper
orbit calculation.


*This could explain the observation of Halliday that there seems to be
a *statistical increase also in late Summer and Fall.

*In any case, the Air Force needs to release its satellite detections
of these fireballs. For one thing they might be able to detect the
meteors before they have any appreciable interaction with the
atmosphere. For large meteors, of oblong shape, the atmospheric
interaction could alter their direction, thus giving a misleading
interpretation of their original orbits.

*For many people the Air Force not sharing all the technical means at
its disposal led to the loss of the shuttle Columbia crew. It must not
be said that its keeping its meteor detections capability secret led
to the loss *of an entire city.

* Bob Clark


Since when do mainstream oligarchs care about the rest of us?
  #3  
Old February 28th 13, 09:21 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.math,sci.astro.amateur
Davoud[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,989
Default Coincidence of meteor strike and close asteroid approach at same time.

Robert Clark:
For many people the Air Force not sharing all the technical means at
its disposal led to the loss of the shuttle Columbia crew. It must not
be said that its keeping its meteor detections capability secret led
to the loss of an entire city.


It doesn't matter how many people believe some nonsense about the
Columbia, it's not true. Can you imagine how many hours or days in
advance the AF would have to have known a meteor was going to collide
with the Columbia!? Not possible. The Air Force has no "meteor
detections capability," secret or otherwise, because the AF is not in
the business of detecting meteors, even if it does so inadvertently
from time to time. The AF does not operate the U.S. space
reconnaissance program.

By that token, if a meteor destroys a whole city it won't be the fault
of the Air Force except in deranged minds. For each nutter who blamed
the Air Force for not detecting a meteor there would be two other
nutters who blamed the AF for not shooting down a UFO.

We mustn't let conspiracy theorists and other nut cases run our science.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
  #4  
Old February 28th 13, 10:07 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.math,sci.astro.amateur
Robert Clark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,150
Default Coincidence of meteor strike and close asteroid approach at same time.

On Feb 28, 3:21*pm, Davoud wrote:
Robert Clark:

*For many people the Air Force not sharing all the technical means at
its disposal led to the loss of the shuttle Columbia crew. It must not
be said that its keeping its meteor detections capability secret led
to the loss *of an entire city.


It doesn't matter how many people believe some nonsense about the
Columbia, it's not true. Can you imagine how many hours or days in
advance the AF would have to have known a meteor was going to collide
with the Columbia!? Not possible. The Air Force has no "meteor
detections capability," secret or otherwise, because the AF is not in
the business of detecting meteors, even if it does so inadvertently
from time to time. The AF does not operate the U.S. space
reconnaissance program.

By that token, if a meteor destroys a whole city it won't be the fault
of the Air Force except in deranged minds. For each nutter who blamed
the Air Force for not detecting a meteor there would be two other
nutters who blamed the AF for not shooting down a UFO.

We mustn't let conspiracy theorists and other nut cases run our science.

--



Needless to say, the implication was not that Columbia was destroyed
by a meteor, but that the Air Force's various imaging and detection
capabilities were not shared before Columbia attempted re-entry.
In regards to the Air Force having meteor detection capability the
Air Force has acknowledged this.

Bob Clark
On Feb 23, 6:09 pm, Robert Clark wrote:
...

Meteor expert Clark Chapman and former astronaut Rusty Schweickart
urge U.S. military to re-initiate sharing of satellite detections of
meteor impacts:

Russian Meteor Fallout: Military Satellite Data Should Be Shared.
by Leonard David, SPACE.com’s Space Insider Columnist
Date: 18 February 2013 Time: 09:03 AM EThttp://www.space.com/19846-russian-meteor-fallout-military-satellites...

From links in the article, the military formerly did share this
information but the policy was changed in 2009. This is important
because the satellites reportedly have the capability to detect
meteors down to 1 meter wide and below. This would well have the
capability to determine if close asteroid flybys result in increased
meteor impacts.

Bob Clark


  #5  
Old February 28th 13, 11:54 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,007
Default Coincidence of meteor strike and close asteroid approach at same time.

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:21:53 -0500, Davoud wrote:

The Air Force has no "meteor
detections capability," secret or otherwise, because the AF is not in
the business of detecting meteors, even if it does so inadvertently
from time to time.


Actually, the military has superior meteor detecting capability. The
DOD satellites that continuously monitor the Earth looking for covert
nuclear explosions provide some of the best data available on meteors.
Unfortunately, this data is only shared with the academic community on
rare occasions.

What the military doesn't have (and doesn't much need) is the
capability of detecting meteoroids. The only practical way of
detecting those is optically, and while most are too small for current
technology, the most likely detectors of meteoroids are non-military
sky surveys.
  #6  
Old February 28th 13, 11:55 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.math,sci.astro.amateur
Greg \(Strider\) Moore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 790
Default Coincidence of meteor strike and close asteroid approach at same time.

"Robert Clark" wrote in message
...


For many people the Air Force not sharing all the technical means at
its disposal led to the loss of the shuttle Columbia crew.


In what reality?

The Air Force would have gladly shared the data had it been asked for. They
had done so in the past when asked.


It must not
be said that its keeping its meteor detections capability secret led
to the loss of an entire city.

Bob Clark



--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net

  #7  
Old March 1st 13, 04:27 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Davoud[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,989
Default Coincidence of meteor strike and close asteroid approach at same time.

Davoud:
The Air Force has no "meteor
detections capability," secret or otherwise, because the AF is not in
the business of detecting meteors, even if it does so inadvertently
from time to time.


Chris L Peterson:
Actually, the military has superior meteor detecting capability. The
DOD satellites that continuously monitor the Earth looking for covert
nuclear explosions provide some of the best data available on meteors.


So it's like I said, the AF is not in the business of detecting
meteors, even if it does so inadvertently from time to time.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
  #8  
Old March 2nd 13, 07:10 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Brad Guth[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15,175
Default Coincidence of meteor strike and close asteroid approach at same time.

On Feb 28, 7:27*pm, Davoud wrote:
Davoud:

The Air Force has no "meteor
detections capability," secret or otherwise, because the AF is not in
the business of detecting meteors, even if it does so inadvertently
from time to time.


Chris L Peterson:

Actually, the military has superior meteor detecting capability. The
DOD satellites that continuously monitor the Earth looking for covert
nuclear explosions provide some of the best data available on meteors.


So it's like I said, the AF is not in the business of detecting
meteors, even if it does so inadvertently from time to time.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm


In other words, our USAF isn't in the business of tracking an incoming
50 Mt nuke from Russia or any other nation.
  #9  
Old March 2nd 13, 07:23 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,007
Default Coincidence of meteor strike and close asteroid approach at same time.

On Sat, 2 Mar 2013 10:10:42 -0800 (PST), Brad Guth
wrote:

In other words, our USAF isn't in the business of tracking an incoming
50 Mt nuke from Russia or any other nation.


Meteors are atmospheric phenomena, lasting a few seconds. The Air
Force can and does record such events (inadvertently, as Davoud
pointed out) while monitoring for nuclear blasts and rocket launches.

What the Air Force does not currently do (because they have little
reason) is to monitor space for asteroids or meteoroids in Earth
intersecting orbits. That is a task best left to civilian agencies and
amateur astronomers, and the ability to detect smaller and smaller
objects is steadily improving.

The Air Force does monitor bodies in Earth orbit (using radar) because
those are the things most likely (by far) to damage space assets, not
sporadic meteoroids.
  #10  
Old March 3rd 13, 12:11 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Paul Schlyter[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 19
Default Coincidence of meteor strike and close asteroid approach at same time.

On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 11:23:52 -0700, Chris L Peterson
wrote:
Meteors are atmospheric phenomena


....and the science studying them is called meteorology... :-)
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
asteroid close approach, 2011 Nov 08 [email protected] Amateur Astronomy 295 January 22nd 12 08:44 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.