Progress ISS launch fails!

In article 1216e020-97f3-4ac7-909e-98c9cbe45246
@p37g2000prp.googlegroups.com, says...

On Aug 25, 12:17*pm, Pat Flannery wrote:
On 8/25/2011 1:06 AM, Jochem Huhmann wrote:

This might help though with NASA supporting SpaceX with manned Dragon
missions. ISS hanging off Soyuz for all manned flights is not a state of
affairs one would wish for.

I don't think NASA likes Dragon, as it is a threat to their way of dong
things, and they probably wish it would just go away... so that business
as usual with ULA could go on as before.
NASA sort of got dragged, kicking and screaming, into COTS, to show they
wanted to privatize space services.

If NASA wanted so desperately to kill COTS, they'd have gone long ago
with USA's proposal to fly the Space Shuttle commercially.

I never understood how this would have helped. Creating U.S.A. was an
attempt at commercializing at least some of the shuttle program. It
certainly didn't help costs much.

There's
nothing any of the COTS participants have that can even remotely
compete with a Shuttle orbiter's capabilities.

Luckily, they don't have too in order to supply ISS with cargo or even
to eventually provide crew transport for ISS. ISS provides orbital far
beyond those needed for simple cargo and crew transport.

Jeff
--
" Ares 1 is a prime example of the fact that NASA just can't get it
up anymore... and when they can, it doesn't stay up long. "
- tinker

On Aug 29, 7:28*am, Brian Thorn wrote:

we are looking at depression..........

No, we're not. You really need to go to a Library and read a book
about the Depression, its causes and its impact. Our economy, screwed
up as it may be today by incompetent government and out of control
corporate greed, is orders of magnitude healthier than it was in 1930.


So, Brian, what IS the difference between a "recession" and a
"depression"? Let's say the economy goes into a freefall later this
year. When do we start calling it a "Depression" OFFICIALLY (or at
least the economists between themselves)? And as per these
definitions, where do the various "panics" of the 1800s fit? And no "a
recession is when your neighbor loses his job and a depression is when
you lose YOURS" nonsense.

On 08/29/2011 11:58 AM, Rick Jones wrote:
In sci.space.history Pat wrote:
On 8/28/2011 7:06 AM, Brian Thorn wrote:

What I do wonder about, is, "would NASA have allowed SpaceX to launch
a Dragon with seats, but unmanned, to go to ISS and bring home the
stranded STS-135 crew?" That should be possible if push came to shove.

Knowing Musk, he could have probably had that ready around a month from
the word "go".
(Cut to astronauts looking at a Naugahyde couch super-glued inside of
the Dragon and a pile of scuba tanks and mouthpieces for their air
supply.) ;-)

Nah, a bunch of Shuttle-surplus suits that SpaceX bought via eBay.

Speaking of which, some places are positing that the ISS might be
unmanned by mid November. As Dragon relies on someone being on the
station to effect the docking, an unmanned ISS means at best (?) the
next Dragon mission would end-up going back to what it was originally
planned to be - dress-rehersal without actual docking.

It wouldn't even be that. The C2 demo objectives included a test of crew
commanding from ISS through the CCP/CUCU. Without a crew, they wouldn't
be able to do that test, and they'd still need to do it prior to getting
a go-for-C3. SpaceX would be better off waiting until the station is
re-manned, that way they don't throw away a spacecraft and Falcon.

On 08/29/2011 08:46 AM, Alan Erskine wrote:
On 25/08/2011 4:07 AM, Pat Flannery wrote:
Today's launch of a Progress cargo ship to the ISS has failed:
http://spaceflightnow.com/station/exp28/110824prog44p/
The upper stage malfunctioned and the cargo ship reentered the
atmosphere.
You know, if SpaceX can get that Dragon launch sped up, it would be pure
gold as far as positive publicity for them.

Pat

Even if the third stage (bloc) did fail during it's part of the launch,
the crew would still (probably) be OK, but re-enter on a sub-orbital
course.

More-or-less what happened on Soyuz 18A (it even landed in the same
Altai mountain range as the Progress debris). The 21G entry was
survivable, but the landing almost killed them (the capsule landed on a
hillside and almost rolled off a cliff, but the parachute snagged on
vegetation and saved them).

On Aug 29, 5:57*pm, " wrote:
On Aug 29, 7:28*am, Brian Thorn wrote:



we are looking at depression..........

No, we're not. You really need to go to a Library and read a book
about the Depression, its causes and its impact. Our economy, screwed
up as it may be today by incompetent government and out of control
corporate greed, is orders of magnitude healthier than it was in 1930.

So, Brian, what IS the difference between a "recession" and a
"depression"? Let's say the economy goes into a freefall later this
year. When do we start calling it a "Depression" OFFICIALLY (or at
least the economists between themselves)? And as per these
definitions, where do the various "panics" of the 1800s fit? And no "a
recession is when your neighbor loses his job and a depression is when
you lose YOURS" nonsense.

have you seen the job growth charts after recession?

job growth has been flat at best.

probably because we no longer have much of a manufacturing base. china
has taken our manufacturing jobs.

we cant compete with chinese people making 3 bucks a day american

On 8/29/2011 4:37 PM, Jorge R. Frank wrote:

More-or-less what happened on Soyuz 18A (it even landed in the same
Altai mountain range as the Progress debris). The 21G entry was
survivable, but the landing almost killed them (the capsule landed on a
hillside and almost rolled off a cliff, but the parachute snagged on
vegetation and saved them).

Nothing you would ever want to put a crew through even though that crew
survived.

Pat

On Aug 29, 9:28*pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:
bob haller wrote:

probably because we no longer have much of a manufacturing base. china
has taken our manufacturing jobs.

Sorry, but as on everything else you spout on, you're full of ****e on
this as well. *The US still has the largest manufacturing base on the
planet. *In billions of dollars:

Country 1990 * *1995 * *2000 * *2005 * *2006 * *2007 * *2008
USA * * 1,041 * 1,289 * 1,543 * 1,624 * 1,712 * 1,756 * 1,831
China * 145 * * 300 * * 484 * * 734* * *891* * *1,106* *1,399**
Japan * 810 * * 1,219 * 1,034 * 979 * * 927 * * 923 * * 1,045
Germany 438 * * 517 * * 392 * * 571 * * 608 * * 711 * * 767
Italy * 240 * * 226 * * 206 * * 295 * * 302 * * 345 * * 381
UK * * *206 * * 218 * * 226 * * 264 * * 295 * * 323 * * 323
France *200 * * 233 * * 190 * * 255 * * 255 * * 287 * * 306
Russia *120 * * 64 * * *45 * * *124 * * 157 * * 206 * * 256
Brazil *120 * * 125 * * 96 * * *137 * * 163 * * 201 * * 237
Korea * 66 * * *131 * * 136 * * 211 * * 234 * * 260 * * 231
Spain * 112 * * 104 * * 98 * * *160 * * 170 * * 196 * * 222
Mexico *62 * * *67 * * *133 * * 154 * * 175 * * 182 * * 197
Canada *92 * * *100 * * 129 * * 168 * * 182 * * 197 * * 195
India * 51 * * *61 * * *69 * * *122 * * 141 * * 177 * * 188

--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
*truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-- Thomas Jefferson

sounds nice but look at how much manufacturing has been lost over the
last 20 years..........

often profit isnt the first item sold its the top sales the generate
the real profit.......

in any case in this down cycle jobs havent grown. and home prices are
still falling

On Aug 30, 2:53*am, Pat Flannery wrote:
On 8/29/2011 4:37 PM, Jorge R. Frank wrote:

More-or-less what happened on Soyuz 18A (it even landed in the same
Altai mountain range as the Progress debris). The 21G entry was
survivable, but the landing almost killed them (the capsule landed on a
hillside and almost rolled off a cliff, but the parachute snagged on
vegetation and saved them).

Nothing you would ever want to put a crew through even though that crew
survived.

Pat

far better outcome than challenger and columbia, imagine what they
went thru.......

and their families are still grieving......

just look at the grissom family of apollo one..

On Aug 30, 7:00*am, bob haller wrote:
On Aug 29, 9:28*pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:





bob haller wrote:

probably because we no longer have much of a manufacturing base. china
has taken our manufacturing jobs.

Sorry, but as on everything else you spout on, you're full of ****e on
this as well. *The US still has the largest manufacturing base on the
planet. *In billions of dollars:

Country 1990 * *1995 * *2000 * *2005 * *2006 * *2007 * *2008
USA * * 1,041 * 1,289 * 1,543 * 1,624 * 1,712 * 1,756 * 1,831
China * 145 * * 300 * * 484 * * 734* * *891* * *1,106* *1,399**
Japan * 810 * * 1,219 * 1,034 * 979 * * 927 * * 923 * * 1,045
Germany 438 * * 517 * * 392 * * 571 * * 608 * * 711 * * 767
Italy * 240 * * 226 * * 206 * * 295 * * 302 * * 345 * * 381
UK * * *206 * * 218 * * 226 * * 264 * * 295 * * 323 * * 323
France *200 * * 233 * * 190 * * 255 * * 255 * * 287 * * 306
Russia *120 * * 64 * * *45 * * *124 * * 157 * * 206 * * 256
Brazil *120 * * 125 * * 96 * * *137 * * 163 * * 201 * * 237
Korea * 66 * * *131 * * 136 * * 211 * * 234 * * 260 * * 231
Spain * 112 * * 104 * * 98 * * *160 * * 170 * * 196 * * 222
Mexico *62 * * *67 * * *133 * * 154 * * 175 * * 182 * * 197
Canada *92 * * *100 * * 129 * * 168 * * 182 * * 197 * * 195
India * 51 * * *61 * * *69 * * *122 * * 141 * * 177 * * 188

--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
*truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-- Thomas Jefferson

sounds nice but look at how much manufacturing has been lost over the
last 20 years..........

often profit isnt the first item sold its the top sales the generate
the real profit.......

in any case in this down cycle jobs havent grown. and home prices are
still falling- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

and many US companies buy the parts from other places, and just do
minimal final assembly here.

if you dont believe this just ask people in phoenix their jobs went to
mexico although the companies still have us addresses.

cost of american manufacturing worker $29 bucks a hour

cost of chinese manufacturing worker $3 PER DAY, and they are happy to
get it........

On 30/08/2011 9:02 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Aug 30, 2:53 am, Pat wrote:
On 8/29/2011 4:37 PM, Jorge R. Frank wrote:

More-or-less what happened on Soyuz 18A (it even landed in the same
Altai mountain range as the Progress debris). The 21G entry was
survivable, but the landing almost killed them (the capsule landed on a
hillside and almost rolled off a cliff, but the parachute snagged on
vegetation and saved them).

Nothing you would ever want to put a crew through even though that crew
survived.

Pat

far better outcome than challenger and columbia, imagine what they
went thru.......

and their families are still grieving......

just look at the grissom family of apollo one..

The (surviving) Grissom's are nuts. You should feel right at home.