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Hoagland debunked, Creationism stomped, we're on a roll!



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 30th 04, 06:08 AM
Thad Floryan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Hoagland debunked, Creationism stomped, we're on a roll!

With Hoagland debunked at www.badastronomy.com, we have yet another victory
thanks to massive funding from the National Science Foundation and the
Howard Hughes Medical Institute!

UC Berkeley has taken the grant funds to debunk cretinism, er, creationism,
at a truly remarkable web site.

The full story is he

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/03/29/MNGQV5SIDC1.DTL

and their incredible web site is he

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

Don't let the title of UCB's web site fool you. There's a great explanation
of what science really is, and many of the examples are astronomy related
so this is on-topic.

Way to go, UCB! And thank you NSF and the Howard Hughes Medical Institute!
  #2  
Old March 30th 04, 01:30 PM
Davoud
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Hoagland debunked, Creationism stomped, we're on a roll!

Thad Floryan:
With Hoagland debunked at www.badastronomy.com, we have yet another victory
thanks to massive funding from the National Science Foundation and the
Howard Hughes Medical Institute!
UC Berkeley has taken the grant funds to debunk cretinism, er, creationism,
at a truly remarkable web site.
The full story is he
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/03/29/MNGQV5SIDC1.DTL
and their incredible web site is he
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
Don't let the title of UCB's web site fool you. There's a great explanation
of what science really is, and many of the examples are astronomy related
so this is on-topic.
Way to go, UCB! And thank you NSF and the Howard Hughes Medical Institute!


Very good, indeed! They're preaching to the choir, but it is a large
choir, and UCB's cogent presentation should provide ammunition to sway
open-minded fence-sitters.

Don't making the mistake of thinking that creationists are just
ignorant; that's too benign a description. One of the foundation stones
of creationism, and part of the foundation of ultra-conservatism
everywhere, is racial hatred (read: fear). There are quite a few people
who will never accept our brotherhood with the people of Africa and
worse yet, that our species originated in Africa; and who, in their own
circles, still call non-whites "the ****** race."

The UCB site is certainly a big step in the right direction, because
education is the key to ending ignorance -- education with the law
behind it to prevent creeping creationism in the public schools. "I
don't care what your Daddy says; he's entitled to his opinion. But
we're here to explore the truth, and the truth is..." And we need to
get away from the phrase "Theory of Evolution," because "theory" is a
word that the religious right has seized upon and twisted the meaning
of. I like the name "Property of Evolution," because I maintain that
evolution is a property of life -- evolving is simply what living
things do.

Thanks for the info.

Davoud

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
  #3  
Old March 30th 04, 01:30 PM
Davoud
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Hoagland debunked, Creationism stomped, we're on a roll!

Thad Floryan:
With Hoagland debunked at www.badastronomy.com, we have yet another victory
thanks to massive funding from the National Science Foundation and the
Howard Hughes Medical Institute!
UC Berkeley has taken the grant funds to debunk cretinism, er, creationism,
at a truly remarkable web site.
The full story is he
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/03/29/MNGQV5SIDC1.DTL
and their incredible web site is he
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
Don't let the title of UCB's web site fool you. There's a great explanation
of what science really is, and many of the examples are astronomy related
so this is on-topic.
Way to go, UCB! And thank you NSF and the Howard Hughes Medical Institute!


Very good, indeed! They're preaching to the choir, but it is a large
choir, and UCB's cogent presentation should provide ammunition to sway
open-minded fence-sitters.

Don't making the mistake of thinking that creationists are just
ignorant; that's too benign a description. One of the foundation stones
of creationism, and part of the foundation of ultra-conservatism
everywhere, is racial hatred (read: fear). There are quite a few people
who will never accept our brotherhood with the people of Africa and
worse yet, that our species originated in Africa; and who, in their own
circles, still call non-whites "the ****** race."

The UCB site is certainly a big step in the right direction, because
education is the key to ending ignorance -- education with the law
behind it to prevent creeping creationism in the public schools. "I
don't care what your Daddy says; he's entitled to his opinion. But
we're here to explore the truth, and the truth is..." And we need to
get away from the phrase "Theory of Evolution," because "theory" is a
word that the religious right has seized upon and twisted the meaning
of. I like the name "Property of Evolution," because I maintain that
evolution is a property of life -- evolving is simply what living
things do.

Thanks for the info.

Davoud

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
  #4  
Old March 30th 04, 04:23 PM
Michael McCulloch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Hoagland debunked, Creationism stomped, we're on a roll!

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:30:58 -0500, Davoud wrote:

Don't making the mistake of thinking that creationists are just
ignorant; that's too benign a description. One of the foundation stones
of creationism, and part of the foundation of ultra-conservatism
everywhere, is racial hatred (read: fear).


What a completely uninformed and bigoted comment. You are displaying
the exact attitude you accuse.

Most 'creationists' I know, and I dare say the vast majority, are
simple church-going folk that feel the system is indoctrinating their
children to hate religion. Your comment indicates you know very little
about the 'other side'.

I am not a creationist but I can at least have respect for opinions
that might vary from my own. Frankly, I think the teaching of
macro-evolution can wait until high school without risking severe
damage to our children. There are plenty of other science topics to
teach until a later age when parents can feel more comfortable with
addressing the questions of religion vs. science that are inevitably
raised.

Anyway, this is off-topic and I shouldn't have responded, but the
quoted comment was so offensive I couldn't resist.

---
Michael McCulloch
  #5  
Old March 30th 04, 04:23 PM
Michael McCulloch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Hoagland debunked, Creationism stomped, we're on a roll!

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:30:58 -0500, Davoud wrote:

Don't making the mistake of thinking that creationists are just
ignorant; that's too benign a description. One of the foundation stones
of creationism, and part of the foundation of ultra-conservatism
everywhere, is racial hatred (read: fear).


What a completely uninformed and bigoted comment. You are displaying
the exact attitude you accuse.

Most 'creationists' I know, and I dare say the vast majority, are
simple church-going folk that feel the system is indoctrinating their
children to hate religion. Your comment indicates you know very little
about the 'other side'.

I am not a creationist but I can at least have respect for opinions
that might vary from my own. Frankly, I think the teaching of
macro-evolution can wait until high school without risking severe
damage to our children. There are plenty of other science topics to
teach until a later age when parents can feel more comfortable with
addressing the questions of religion vs. science that are inevitably
raised.

Anyway, this is off-topic and I shouldn't have responded, but the
quoted comment was so offensive I couldn't resist.

---
Michael McCulloch
  #6  
Old March 30th 04, 05:00 PM
Chris L Peterson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Hoagland debunked, Creationism stomped, we're on a roll!

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:30:58 -0500, Davoud wrote:

And we need to
get away from the phrase "Theory of Evolution," because "theory" is a
word that the religious right has seized upon and twisted the meaning
of. I like the name "Property of Evolution," because I maintain that
evolution is a property of life -- evolving is simply what living
things do.


I agree that "theory" is a poor word, although you have to be careful playing
with Newspeak.

What should be taught is just "evolution". It isn't a theory, but an
observation, as solidly based in actual observation as "growth" (we don't have a
disputed Theory of Growth, arguing that trees started out as seeds). From there,
what should be taught is science. Applied to the observation of evolution, that
leads to theories of mechanisms. The fact that those with political/religious
agendas, or simply the ignorant, will use conflicting theories of mechanism as
an argument against evolution is unfortunate, but the fix isn't changing words.
The fix is teaching scientific thinking (which is a huge threat to religions,
governments, and all other institutions that rely on dogma as a mechanism of
control).

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com
  #7  
Old March 30th 04, 05:00 PM
Chris L Peterson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Hoagland debunked, Creationism stomped, we're on a roll!

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:30:58 -0500, Davoud wrote:

And we need to
get away from the phrase "Theory of Evolution," because "theory" is a
word that the religious right has seized upon and twisted the meaning
of. I like the name "Property of Evolution," because I maintain that
evolution is a property of life -- evolving is simply what living
things do.


I agree that "theory" is a poor word, although you have to be careful playing
with Newspeak.

What should be taught is just "evolution". It isn't a theory, but an
observation, as solidly based in actual observation as "growth" (we don't have a
disputed Theory of Growth, arguing that trees started out as seeds). From there,
what should be taught is science. Applied to the observation of evolution, that
leads to theories of mechanisms. The fact that those with political/religious
agendas, or simply the ignorant, will use conflicting theories of mechanism as
an argument against evolution is unfortunate, but the fix isn't changing words.
The fix is teaching scientific thinking (which is a huge threat to religions,
governments, and all other institutions that rely on dogma as a mechanism of
control).

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com
  #8  
Old March 30th 04, 06:18 PM
AJ Sutters
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Hoagland debunked, Creationism stomped, we're on a roll!


"Davoud" wrote in message
...
Thad Floryan:
With Hoagland debunked at www.badastronomy.com, we have yet another

victory
thanks to massive funding from the National Science Foundation and the
Howard Hughes Medical Institute!
UC Berkeley has taken the grant funds to debunk cretinism, er,

creationism,
at a truly remarkable web site.
The full story is he

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/03/29/MNGQV5SIDC1.DTL
and their incredible web site is he
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
Don't let the title of UCB's web site fool you. There's a great

explanation
of what science really is, and many of the examples are astronomy

related
so this is on-topic.
Way to go, UCB! And thank you NSF and the Howard Hughes Medical

Institute!

Very good, indeed! They're preaching to the choir, but it is a large
choir, and UCB's cogent presentation should provide ammunition to sway
open-minded fence-sitters.

Don't making the mistake of thinking that creationists are just
ignorant; that's too benign a description. One of the foundation stones
of creationism, and part of the foundation of ultra-conservatism
everywhere, is racial hatred (read: fear).


Well, I am a Creationist and I definitely don't hate others. In fact, true
Christians are taught NOT to hate others. The discrepancy occurs when pure
evolutionists and others try to completely wipe out Creationist theory. I
myself believe in both a combination of evolution and Creation. It's
extremely easy to get caught up trying to dismiss one theory in favor of
another: and that creates controversy.

There are quite a few people
who will never accept our brotherhood with the people of Africa and
worse yet, that our species originated in Africa; and who, in their own
circles, still call non-whites "the ****** race."


Quite a few? Geez, I haven't heard the "n" word used in my presence for
nearly 15 years now, and I work in an all white occupation! If you want to
talk about "accepting our brotherhood", then we're ALL related in some way.
And, yes, the human species as we know it did originate in Africa- both the
Bible and evolution show that. The first humans were most likely darker
skinned, however I wouldn't say totally black nor white either.

The UCB site is certainly a big step in the right direction, because
education is the key to ending ignorance -- education with the law
behind it to prevent creeping creationism in the public schools.


Speaking of the so-called fear you spoke of that Creationists have, do I see
a little fear here coming from an evolutionist? Perhaps.

"I
don't care what your Daddy says; he's entitled to his opinion. But
we're here to explore the truth, and the truth is..." And we need to
get away from the phrase "Theory of Evolution," because "theory" is a
word that the religious right has seized upon and twisted the meaning
of. I like the name "Property of Evolution," because I maintain that
evolution is a property of life -- evolving is simply what living
things do.


Is there actually concrete proof of something showing evolution?

Bottom line, there is as much "theory" involved in the concept of evolution
as there is in Creation. Both theories show lack of evidence and with
Creation, one simply has to have the "faith" to believe what occurred. The
trouble with many scientists is that believing in something on pure faith is
nearly impossible because they can't prod and poke and otherwise test it.
Yet, is it so unfounded for something to exist and yet we can't detect it in
any way? For example, particle radiation say 500 years ago. Men working in
certain caves mining for copper let's say and dying from mysterious
illnesses. Now we would attribute it to radiation poisioning and cancer,
but 500 years ago it was just a mystery. There are some things that mankind
will never be able to detect and a Supreme Being is one of them. That is
the whole reason for having "faith".

AJ

Thanks for the info.

Davoud

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com



  #9  
Old March 30th 04, 06:18 PM
AJ Sutters
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Hoagland debunked, Creationism stomped, we're on a roll!


"Davoud" wrote in message
...
Thad Floryan:
With Hoagland debunked at www.badastronomy.com, we have yet another

victory
thanks to massive funding from the National Science Foundation and the
Howard Hughes Medical Institute!
UC Berkeley has taken the grant funds to debunk cretinism, er,

creationism,
at a truly remarkable web site.
The full story is he

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/03/29/MNGQV5SIDC1.DTL
and their incredible web site is he
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
Don't let the title of UCB's web site fool you. There's a great

explanation
of what science really is, and many of the examples are astronomy

related
so this is on-topic.
Way to go, UCB! And thank you NSF and the Howard Hughes Medical

Institute!

Very good, indeed! They're preaching to the choir, but it is a large
choir, and UCB's cogent presentation should provide ammunition to sway
open-minded fence-sitters.

Don't making the mistake of thinking that creationists are just
ignorant; that's too benign a description. One of the foundation stones
of creationism, and part of the foundation of ultra-conservatism
everywhere, is racial hatred (read: fear).


Well, I am a Creationist and I definitely don't hate others. In fact, true
Christians are taught NOT to hate others. The discrepancy occurs when pure
evolutionists and others try to completely wipe out Creationist theory. I
myself believe in both a combination of evolution and Creation. It's
extremely easy to get caught up trying to dismiss one theory in favor of
another: and that creates controversy.

There are quite a few people
who will never accept our brotherhood with the people of Africa and
worse yet, that our species originated in Africa; and who, in their own
circles, still call non-whites "the ****** race."


Quite a few? Geez, I haven't heard the "n" word used in my presence for
nearly 15 years now, and I work in an all white occupation! If you want to
talk about "accepting our brotherhood", then we're ALL related in some way.
And, yes, the human species as we know it did originate in Africa- both the
Bible and evolution show that. The first humans were most likely darker
skinned, however I wouldn't say totally black nor white either.

The UCB site is certainly a big step in the right direction, because
education is the key to ending ignorance -- education with the law
behind it to prevent creeping creationism in the public schools.


Speaking of the so-called fear you spoke of that Creationists have, do I see
a little fear here coming from an evolutionist? Perhaps.

"I
don't care what your Daddy says; he's entitled to his opinion. But
we're here to explore the truth, and the truth is..." And we need to
get away from the phrase "Theory of Evolution," because "theory" is a
word that the religious right has seized upon and twisted the meaning
of. I like the name "Property of Evolution," because I maintain that
evolution is a property of life -- evolving is simply what living
things do.


Is there actually concrete proof of something showing evolution?

Bottom line, there is as much "theory" involved in the concept of evolution
as there is in Creation. Both theories show lack of evidence and with
Creation, one simply has to have the "faith" to believe what occurred. The
trouble with many scientists is that believing in something on pure faith is
nearly impossible because they can't prod and poke and otherwise test it.
Yet, is it so unfounded for something to exist and yet we can't detect it in
any way? For example, particle radiation say 500 years ago. Men working in
certain caves mining for copper let's say and dying from mysterious
illnesses. Now we would attribute it to radiation poisioning and cancer,
but 500 years ago it was just a mystery. There are some things that mankind
will never be able to detect and a Supreme Being is one of them. That is
the whole reason for having "faith".

AJ

Thanks for the info.

Davoud

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com



  #10  
Old March 30th 04, 07:07 PM
Stephen Paul
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Posts: n/a
Default Hoagland debunked, Creationism stomped, we're on a roll!

"AJ Sutters" wrote in message news:AZhac.5077
I work in an all white occupation!


Please explain.

 




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