How cool is VL2

In sci.physics, BradGuth

wrote
on 30 Apr 2007 19:11:27 -0700
.com:
On Apr 29, 7:55 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:
In sci.physics, BradGuth

wrote
on 29 Apr 2007 12:14:56 -0700
. com:

What's the backside (facing away from Venus) as parked at VL2 worth in
temperature?

I know that its damn cold, but exactly how cold?

I know that except for Earth's planetshine, there's not much available
photon energy/m2, perhaps at best earthshine we're talking of only a
few mw/m2, and otherwise something far less than a mw/m2 worth of
starshine.
-
Brad Guth

Earth's planetshine is one factor; there's also Venus'
nighttime temperature, which is a little nearer. However,
since VL2 is in perpetual shadow and Venus' nighttime isn't
that big, I'd surmise that absent insulation things will
be very cold a billion meters out (which is about where
VL2 is).

To be sure, perhaps you want to ask a more specific
question. For example, one can place a POOF station
sans heat, power, or insulation and let it thermally
equilibriate, then ask what temperature one might expect
thereof.

That's not half bad, as I'll try asking such better questions. (though
easier said than done when I'm not nearly as all-knowing as yourself,
and dyslexic to boot)

How about sharing your better/alternative research as to the
following:

Planetshine IR Heat Flux [W/m2]
earthshine radiance IR [W/m2] = 266 w/m2
venusshine radiance IR [W/m2] = 532 w/m2 ?
-
Brad Guth



Earthshine is highly variable in this context. In opposition, the term
is nonexistent (unless one assumes the Sun is transparent). In
conjunction, the Earth's phase is full and one can add the albedo as
well as thermal radiation factors. However, since Venus' aphelion is
108,942,109,000 m and Earth's perihelion is 147,098,074,000 m,
38,155,965,000 m is the nearest they'll ever be -- about 38 times
farther away than VL2.

Therefore, Earthshine's contribution is at most 1/1444th that of Venus's
nightside, and most of the time it will be much less than that.

I'll admit to some curiosity as to how to compute it properly, but the
temperature at VL2 appears to be ultra-cold, probably 4-5 K at the very
most. (The temperature of the CMBR is 2.5-3 K. I don't know how much
the 532 w/m^2 will contribute to the temperature gain here, but since
Venus is 1 billion meters out I doubt it would contribute much. Note
that Earth's average temperature is about 287 K -- or 14 C.)

--
#191,
Is it cheaper to learn Linux, or to hire someone
to fix your Windows problems?

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On May 2, 8:23 am, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:

Earthshine is highly variable in this context. In opposition, the term
is nonexistent (unless one assumes the Sun is transparent). In
conjunction, the Earth's phase is full and one can add the albedo as
well as thermal radiation factors. However, since Venus' aphelion is
108,942,109,000 m and Earth's perihelion is 147,098,074,000 m,
38,155,965,000 m is the nearest they'll ever be -- about 38 times
farther away than VL2.

Therefore, Earthshine's contribution is at most 1/1444th that of Venus's
nightside, and most of the time it will be much less than that.

I'll admit to some curiosity as to how to compute it properly, but the
temperature at VL2 appears to be ultra-cold, probably 4-5 K at the very
most. (The temperature of the CMBR is 2.5-3 K. I don't know how much
the 532 w/m^2 will contribute to the temperature gain here, but since
Venus is 1 billion meters out I doubt it would contribute much. Note
that Earth's average temperature is about 287 K -- or 14 C.)

No.1 VL2 at perhaps 87% solar isolation is not exactly in the
"perpetual shadow of Venus", so I'm thinking your 4~5 K is more than a
touch on the cold side. However, the perpetual shade that's offered
by that of POOF City and of it's panels of those PV cells should offer
up a few back-side tens of K to work with, because there's still those
extremely hot solar wind ions plus whatever gets excavated away from
that acidic upper atmosphere of Venus that has got to represent some
measurable degree of heat.

No.2 From above the robust bulk of them acidic and highly reflective
clouds of Venus (especially while situated over the nighttime season
of Venus), is actually representing a fairly cool item to contend
with. Therefore, I'd have to agree that whatever's the Venus
nighttime worth of IR planetshine (including its geothermal surplus of
20.5 w/m2) isn't going to significantly impact the VL2 thermal budget
of POOF City.

As I'd said before, using a wide degree or scope of a halo station-
keeping orbit, as such might become the VL2 norm in order to keep
certain parts of POOF City from freezing to death. Meaning, there
should always be an ongoing need for those ion or whatever station-
keeping thrusters to do.

Did I mention that I have a beer fortified urine -- steam/ion
thruster idea.

No.3 Thanks for all of that on-topic and otherwise constructive
feedback.
-
Brad Guth

wrote:
On Apr 22, 4:23 am, "T Wake" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...

On Apr 20, 1:28 pm, "T Wake" wrote:
wrote in message

groups.com...

On Apr 20, 11:41 am, "T Wake" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...

On Apr 20, 7:22 am, "T Wake" wrote:
wrote in message

groups.com...

On Apr 19, 10:42 am, "T Wake" wrote:

Seriously, do you know what an anticathode is?

Yes, but are you asking merely because you don't have a freaking
clue
as to what creates secondary/recoil photons?

Blimey. I am not even sure what you are trying to talk about here.
Wow.

Figures, doesn't it.

Yes, given that your posts are generally nonsense.

I've obviously esclated myself out of being totally of nonsense to
that of your "generally nonsense" status. Thanks much.

You are welcome.

I'm impressed, in that there's obviously a little something of topic/
argument worth, as to this pesky one pertaining to VL2.

Be careful. You are heading back towards total nonsense.

More than a
little odd though, in that you haven't contributed your all-knowing
and thus superior worth of squat as to this VL2 POOF city
consideration. Why is that?

I have lots of VL2 related questions, that which should be rather easy
for the likes of such wizards as yourself. Are you ready?

Oops. There you go.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry about my being so "Oops" worthy.

It is OK, you are forgiven.

But anyway, isn't VL2 a rather nifty and somewhat cool place for
accommodating that POOF city?

19 months plus a little to/from commute doesn't seem all that bad, or
at the very least 12 months at POOF city plus having taken 7 months (3
in, 4 out) for the to/from trek, seems perfectly good to go.

Why are you folks so deathly afraid of VL2, or even that of our moon's
L1 (aka Clarke Station or better that of my LSE-CM/ISS)?

You are still wallowing in total nonsense. Please try harder.

As per usual, you are still not constructively contributing to the
prime topic at hand. Please try lots harder.
-
Brad Guth

May the Farce be with you, tho' they ain't done too badly considering
your resourceful and well-aimed insults and your knowledge and
stunning independence of mind. I'd have joined in from time to time
'cept that I'd only have been putting in the odd (possibly very odd.
Ed.) comment.
--
'foolsrushin.'

On May 2, 1:38 pm, 'foolsrushin' wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 22, 4:23 am, "T Wake" wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 20, 1:28 pm, "T Wake" wrote:
wrote in message
groups.com...
On Apr 20, 11:41 am, "T Wake" wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 20, 7:22 am, "T Wake" wrote:
wrote in message
groups.com...
On Apr 19, 10:42 am, "T Wake" wrote:
Seriously, do you know what an anticathode is?
Yes, but are you asking merely because you don't have a freaking
clue
as to what creates secondary/recoil photons?
Blimey. I am not even sure what you are trying to talk about here.
Wow.
Figures, doesn't it.
Yes, given that your posts are generally nonsense.
I've obviously esclated myself out of being totally of nonsense to
that of your "generally nonsense" status. Thanks much.
You are welcome.
I'm impressed, in that there's obviously a little something of topic/
argument worth, as to this pesky one pertaining to VL2.
Be careful. You are heading back towards total nonsense.
More than a
little odd though, in that you haven't contributed your all-knowing
and thus superior worth of squat as to this VL2 POOF city
consideration. Why is that?
I have lots of VL2 related questions, that which should be rather easy
for the likes of such wizards as yourself. Are you ready?
Oops. There you go.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Sorry about my being so "Oops" worthy.
It is OK, you are forgiven.
But anyway, isn't VL2 a rather nifty and somewhat cool place for
accommodating that POOF city?
19 months plus a little to/from commute doesn't seem all that bad, or
at the very least 12 months at POOF city plus having taken 7 months (3
in, 4 out) for the to/from trek, seems perfectly good to go.
Why are you folks so deathly afraid of VL2, or even that of our moon's
L1 (aka Clarke Station or better that of my LSE-CM/ISS)?
You are still wallowing in total nonsense. Please try harder.
As per usual, you are still not constructively contributing to the
prime topic at hand. Please try lots harder.
-
BradGuth

May the Farce be with you, tho' they ain't done too badly considering
your resourceful and well-aimed insults and your knowledge and
stunning independence of mind. I'd have joined in from time to time
'cept that I'd only have been putting in the odd (possibly very odd.
Ed.) comment.
--
'foolsrushin.'- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Why not simply contribute your best swag, that is if whatever better
scientific numbers are simply too taboo/nondisclosure rated, as I
wouldn't want any of those nasty MIB having to track you folks down
simply because of your having shared too much truth.

What's your best notion as to what the VL2 backside has to offer?

How about the solar influx while facing Venus from VL2?

How hot or cold are were talking about?
-
Brad Guth

On May 2, 2:11 pm, BradGuth wrote:
On May 2, 1:38 pm, 'foolsrushin' wrote:





wrote:
On Apr 22, 4:23 am, "T Wake" wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 20, 1:28 pm, "T Wake" wrote:
wrote in message
groups.com...
On Apr 20, 11:41 am, "T Wake" wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 20, 7:22 am, "T Wake" wrote:
wrote in message
groups.com...
On Apr 19, 10:42 am, "T Wake" wrote:
Seriously, do you know what an anticathode is?
Yes, but are you asking merely because you don't have a freaking
clue
as to what creates secondary/recoil photons?
Blimey. I am not even sure what you are trying to talk about here.
Wow.
Figures, doesn't it.
Yes, given that your posts are generally nonsense.
I've obviously esclated myself out of being totally of nonsense to
that of your "generally nonsense" status. Thanks much.
You are welcome.
I'm impressed, in that there's obviously a little something of topic/
argument worth, as to this pesky one pertaining to VL2.
Be careful. You are heading back towards total nonsense.
More than a
little odd though, in that you haven't contributed your all-knowing
and thus superior worth of squat as to this VL2 POOF city
consideration. Why is that?
I have lots of VL2 related questions, that which should be rather easy
for the likes of such wizards as yourself. Are you ready?
Oops. There you go.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Sorry about my being so "Oops" worthy.
It is OK, you are forgiven.
But anyway, isn't VL2 a rather nifty and somewhat cool place for
accommodating that POOF city?
19 months plus a little to/from commute doesn't seem all that bad, or
at the very least 12 months at POOF city plus having taken 7 months (3
in, 4 out) for the to/from trek, seems perfectly good to go.
Why are you folks so deathly afraid of VL2, or even that of our moon's
L1 (aka Clarke Station or better that of my LSE-CM/ISS)?
You are still wallowing in total nonsense. Please try harder.
As per usual, you are still not constructively contributing to the
prime topic at hand. Please try lots harder.
-
BradGuth

May the Farce be with you, tho' they ain't done too badly considering
your resourceful and well-aimed insults and your knowledge and
stunning independence of mind. I'd have joined in from time to time
'cept that I'd only have been putting in the odd (possibly very odd.
Ed.) comment.
--
'foolsrushin.'- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Why not simply contribute your best swag, that is if whatever better
scientific numbers are simply too taboo/nondisclosure rated, as I
wouldn't want any of those nasty MIB having to track you folks down
simply because of your having shared too much truth.

What's your best notion as to what the VL2 backside has to offer?

How about the solar influx while facing Venus from VL2?

How hot or cold are were talking about?
-BradGuth- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

These Usenet rusemasters are each and every one supposedly atheist,
and otherwise politically independent souls because, whenever
attempting to pin down the mindset of their motives or hidden agenda
is when they claim as being essentially off-world and/or totally
outside of any such influence, though obviously siding 100% with their
Republican puppets, along with whatever's Old Testament and/or of
what's even Koran worthy, along with their 'terrestrial only' Mormon
mindset. I guess that's about as honestly independent as we're ever
going get.

Notice how there's usually no constructive feedback, just their well
orchestrated mindset of this anti-think-tank Usenet from hell that
isn't about to allow the truth and nothing but the truth to slip from
between their damage-controlling and/or infomercial spewing butt-
cheeks.
-
Brad Guth

"Brad Guth" wrote in message
news:943268f4698ce93ff8aabb231b766a9b.49644@mygate .mailgate.org

Venus L2(VL2) is supposedly 1,014,300 km 1,014,200 km = 86% shaded by
Venus, receiving 14% worth of the solar photosphere plus a little extra
illumination.

As per usual, the incest mutated naysay mindset of Usenet is stuck
deeply into the nearest space toilet.

There's lots of absolutely nifty things (all good) about POOF City at
Venus L2. Unfortunately, not even Usenet cam.misc is up to the task.

It's as though the topic/author taboo is still in full swing, of
covering thy silly Usenet butts. Even the MI/NSA spooks and moles have
backed off from this one.
-
Brad Guth





--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

In sci.physics, BradGuth

wrote
on 2 May 2007 13:02:36 -0700
.com:
On May 2, 8:23 am, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:

Earthshine is highly variable in this context. In opposition, the term
is nonexistent (unless one assumes the Sun is transparent). In
conjunction, the Earth's phase is full and one can add the albedo as
well as thermal radiation factors. However, since Venus' aphelion is
108,942,109,000 m and Earth's perihelion is 147,098,074,000 m,
38,155,965,000 m is the nearest they'll ever be -- about 38 times
farther away than VL2.

Therefore, Earthshine's contribution is at most 1/1444th that of Venus's
nightside, and most of the time it will be much less than that.

I'll admit to some curiosity as to how to compute it properly, but the
temperature at VL2 appears to be ultra-cold, probably 4-5 K at the very
most. (The temperature of the CMBR is 2.5-3 K. I don't know how much
the 532 w/m^2 will contribute to the temperature gain here, but since
Venus is 1 billion meters out I doubt it would contribute much. Note
that Earth's average temperature is about 287 K -- or 14 C.)

No.1 VL2 at perhaps 87% solar isolation is not exactly in the
"perpetual shadow of Venus", so I'm thinking your 4~5 K is more than a
touch on the cold side.

I was assuming full shadow. As it is,

r = 1.0821 * 10^11 m * cuberoot(4.8685 * 10^24 / (3 * 1.9884 * 10^30 kg))
= 1.0112 * 10^9 m

At this distance, a diameter of Sol would span about
1.392 * 10^9 m / (1.0821 * 10^11 m) = 1.2864 * 10^-2 rad

and Venus would span
1.2104 * 10^7 m / (1.0112 * 10^9 m) = 1.1197 * 10^-2 rad

which means that anything at VL2 will get about 24% of the insolation
that Venus gets, absent atmospheric refraction effects, or about
46% of what Earth gets.

The actual visual effect, of course, would be a bright annular ring.

However, the perpetual shade that's offered
by that of POOF City and of it's panels of those PV cells should offer
up a few back-side tens of K to work with, because there's still those
extremely hot solar wind ions plus whatever gets excavated away from
that acidic upper atmosphere of Venus that has got to represent some
measurable degree of heat.

No.2 From above the robust bulk of them acidic and highly reflective
clouds of Venus (especially while situated over the nighttime season
of Venus), is actually representing a fairly cool item to contend
with. Therefore, I'd have to agree that whatever's the Venus
nighttime worth of IR planetshine (including its geothermal surplus of
20.5 w/m2) isn't going to significantly impact the VL2 thermal budget
of POOF City.

As I'd said before, using a wide degree or scope of a halo station-
keeping orbit, as such might become the VL2 norm in order to keep
certain parts of POOF City from freezing to death. Meaning, there
should always be an ongoing need for those ion or whatever station-
keeping thrusters to do.

Did I mention that I have a beer fortified urine -- steam/ion
thruster idea.

Hardly original; Asimov was using steam-thrusting nuclear
powered rockets since before I was born. The urine,
admittedly, might pose some minor challenges because of
the carbamide urea.


No.3 Thanks for all of that on-topic and otherwise constructive
feedback.
-
Brad Guth


--
#191,
Linux. Because it's not the desktop that's
important, it's the ability to DO something
with it.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On May 3, 11:11 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:

Hardly original; Asimov was using steam-thrusting nuclear
powered rockets since before I was born. The urine,
admittedly, might pose some minor challenges because of
the carbamide urea.

Hardly any of my stuff is original, as with most everything, it has
all been accomplished by China as of a thousand years ago.

Unlike other rusemasters and much of what's NASA/Apollo, I'm stuck
with those pesky regular laws of physics, as well as a fairly old PC.

BTW; Your numbers are still pretty much all over the place, and as
such you still haven't nailed down how hot or cold VL2 is.

your 1.1197 / 1.2864 = 87% isolation (sounds about right)

I thought you had a real do-everything computer to work with.
-
Brad Guth

In sci.physics, BradGuth

wrote
on 4 May 2007 00:49:22 -0700
. com:
On May 3, 11:11 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:

Hardly original; Asimov was using steam-thrusting nuclear
powered rockets since before I was born. The urine,
admittedly, might pose some minor challenges because of
the carbamide urea.

Hardly any of my stuff is original, as with most everything, it has
all been accomplished by China as of a thousand years ago.

Unlike other rusemasters and much of what's NASA/Apollo, I'm stuck
with those pesky regular laws of physics, as well as a fairly old PC.

BTW; Your numbers are still pretty much all over the place, and as
such you still haven't nailed down how hot or cold VL2 is.

your 1.1197 / 1.2864 = 87% isolation (sounds about right)

I thought you had a real do-everything computer to work with.
-
Brad Guth


I will stick by the 25% insolation value, as it's the most logical given
the data I have. A computer is useless without software -- or have you
tried running a contemporary PC without a copy of Windows or Linux
installed thereon?

Bear in mind that the two values are radii or angles --
but insolation depends on intercept area. The visual effect
is that of a very bright annular ring.

As for the actual temperature -- I'd have to do some research.
Basically, radiant energy is impinging on an object floating in space,
and that object radiates the energy back out at a lower wavelength.
The temperature of that object is presumably estimatable but I for one
would have to do quite a bit of research.

I can point you at a theoretical radiance curve, if you like; that curve
details temperature versus wavelength versus amplitude.

I'd guess that it's around 298 * (.46)^(1/4) = 245 kelvin,
well below freezing (273 K), since there is a T^4 component
in the equation, if memory serves. (The 46% is compared to
Earth's insolation.) Of course that can be rectified by
extending out the POOF with adjustable aluminum reflectors,
directing some of the energy appropriately.

--
#191,
Error 16: Not enough space on file system to delete file(s)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

As for the actual temperature -- I'd have to do some research.
Basically, radiant energy is impinging on an object floating in space,
and that object radiates the energy back out at a lower wavelength.
The temperature of that object is presumably estimatable but I for one
would have to do quite a bit of research.

Spacecraft thermal balance testing -- performed in large vacuum
chambers with Xenon illumination. A critical aspect of verifying
flight readiness.

http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstor...M+E491-73(2004)
e1

--
Supreme Leader of the Brainwashed Followers of Art Deco

"Causation of gravity is missing frame field always attempting
renormalization back to base memory of equalized uniform momentum."
-- nightbat the saucerhead-in-chief

"Of doing Venus in person would obviously incorporate a composite
rigid airship, along with it's internal cache of frozen pizza and
ice cold beer."
-- Brad Guth, bigoted racist