Can we subjectively discuss the planet Venus?

On 13/07/13 19:27, Brad Guth wrote:
Keeping this topic within the laws of physics and best available
science, can we remote interpret and eventually exploit the extremely
nearby planet Venus?

I don't think it can be done subjectively - objectively maybe, though I
have doubts. If you do it subjectively you get into romance and all that
non-scientific stuff.


Exploiting Venus? Probably the best way would be to move it to an orbit
nearer the Earth's. Then you would have a body with suitable gravitation
and insolation for humans - the chemistry of changing the atmosphere etc
I leave as an exercise for the student (in other words I can't b
bothered to do it myself, but I think it can be done by a clever student)




======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT: Allowed,
as long as we stay on topic. If we go into speculation I will be
very quick to cut this short.


I think speculation should be on-topic here - how many posts do you have
so far this year? - but scientific specuation only, not subjective
woolly nonsense.

As to how to move Venus out from the Sun, a bit of speculation may be
needed ...


-- Peter Fairbrother

On 7/18/2013 9:37 PM, Ward B. wrote:
"David Spain" wrote ...
Brad Guth wrote:
Keeping this topic within the laws of physics and best available science,
can we remote interpret and eventually exploit the extremely nearby
planet
Venus?

I don't think Venus will likely be a target of "exploitation" anytime
soon. However I think it presents an excellent target for "exploration".

With current technology? The short answer is no colony.

Well sure, but read my entire post. I didn't even suggest manned surface
exploration. Only a manned orbital station carrying out surface
exploration using unmanned (perhaps tele-operated) probes. And given the
extreme surface conditions, you'd likely need *many* probes so that new
ones can take over from old ones after they fail.

Also atmospheric probes. Here with careful buoyancy control you might be
able to get considerable life out of a probe as long as it doesn't go
too far down.

I think the rush to colonize is just one big push to jump from one
gravity well into another and limits our opportunity to explore our vast
and exciting solar system to just two options, be they the Moon or Mars.

And once living on the surface, sustaining that life will, by necessity,
become the far more important factor that the colonists will care about.
Not space vehicles. For a colonist they are only a means to an end. Once
the 49'ers got to California, they'd give a hoot about the Conestoga,
only how much could they sell it for once they got there...

Dave

On 07/19/2013 2:47 PM, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
On 13/07/13 19:27, Brad Guth wrote:
Keeping this topic within the laws of physics and best available
science, can we remote interpret and eventually exploit the extremely
nearby planet Venus?

I don't think it can be done subjectively - objectively maybe, though I
have doubts. If you do it subjectively you get into romance and all that
non-scientific stuff.


Exploiting Venus? Probably the best way would be to move it to an orbit
nearer the Earth's. Then you would have a body with suitable gravitation
and insolation for humans - the chemistry of changing the atmosphere etc
I leave as an exercise for the student (in other words I can't b
bothered to do it myself, but I think it can be done by a clever student)




======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT: Allowed,
as long as we stay on topic. If we go into speculation I will be
very quick to cut this short.


I think speculation should be on-topic here - how many posts do you have
so far this year? - but scientific specuation only, not subjective
woolly nonsense.

As to how to move Venus out from the Sun, a bit of speculation may be
needed ...


Okay. Here is my suggestion on how to move Venus out from the Sun (Not
that I recommend doing so).

Take a smaller body, let's say the size of the moon, let's call this
smaller body M. You move M close to Jupiter in such a way as to having
Jupiter's gravitation sling it at high speed toward Venus. You make
sure that when it approaches Venus, it is just in the right way for
Venus' gravitation to
1) send M towards Jupiter (not necessarily directly, it can be in a few
orbits that it gets close to Jupiter again),
2) slow down M (this does not contradict point 1, Jupiter had sent M at
high speed toward Venus, M is on a trajectory that would bring it
further away than Jupiter if the Venus gravity assist didn't slow it
down)
3) since M is slowed down conservation of energy means that Venus is
sped up.
M is in a cycler orbit between Venus and Jupiter. So you can repeat.
In fact, repeating can be down with very little energy if you are
precise enough and integrate the trajectory for long enough time.


M should not be our moon. It would be too difficult to move it to
Jupiter. You can chose an object in the Kuiper belt.

You still need to figure a way to move a moon sized body. But that
is a much easier problem. I leave it as an exercise to the reader.

You get bonus points if you don't only use gravity assist. On a few
passes you get M to just skim Venus' atmosphere, thereby accelerating
Venus AND removing part of the atmosphere. You wanted to remove about
99% Venus' atmosphere anyway.


Alain Fournier

On 7/23/2013 8:18 AM, Alain Fournier wrote:
On 07/19/2013 2:47 PM, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
On 13/07/13 19:27, Brad Guth wrote:
Keeping this topic within the laws of physics and best available
science, can we remote interpret and eventually exploit the extremely
nearby planet Venus?


Some interesting speculations!

Correct me if I'm wrong but it has been my understanding that Venus does
lie within the "habitable zone". That with a different atmospheric
composition it could be quite "Earth-like" within its current orbit.

The problem IIRC from what I've read in the past is a complete lack of a
magnetic field over a long period of time allowed solar wind erosion
that forced the change in atmospheric composition that led to all the
other nasty effects.

So, in the vein of scientifically oriented pure speculation, MY
suggestion would be not to move it at all. Instead find out what it's
core is made of. If that core could be magnetized, then surround the
planet with a solar powered field coil and *magnetize* it. One you've
established a suitable magnetic field you can start work on a terraform
of its atmosphere.

Putting wilder speculation aside, we've seen life flourish in some
pretty bizarre places on Earth (I'm thinking sea floor volcano vents),
would it not be possible for life to exist at some depth in the Venusian
atmosphere? It would be quite ironic that we devote so much time and
energy in trying to discover life on Mars when in fact it flourishes in
the atmosphere of our nearest planetary neighbor!

Dave


======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
I'll note magnetizing an entire planet is getting fairly speculative. I'll allow for now but I'd love to see some numbers if anyone can.

On 7/20/2013 9:09 AM, David Spain wrote:
Well sure, but read my entire post. I didn't even suggest manned surface
exploration. Only a manned orbital station carrying out surface
exploration using unmanned (perhaps tele-operated) probes. And given the
extreme surface conditions, you'd likely need *many* probes so that new
ones can take over from old ones after they fail.


Speaking of telerobtic probes. This Friday, NASA will be testing this
very technology at Moffet Field. See:


http://www.nasa.gov/press/2013/july/.../#.UfArRHe0SEo

Dave

On Friday, July 19, 2013 11:47:31 AM UTC-7, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
On 13/07/13 19:27, Brad Guth wrote:

Keeping this topic within the laws of physics and best available

science, can we remote interpret and eventually exploit the extremely

nearby planet Venus?



I don't think it can be done subjectively - objectively maybe, though I

have doubts. If you do it subjectively you get into romance and all that

non-scientific stuff.





Exploiting Venus? Probably the best way would be to move it to an orbit

nearer the Earth's. Then you would have a body with suitable gravitation

and insolation for humans - the chemistry of changing the atmosphere etc

I leave as an exercise for the student (in other words I can't b

bothered to do it myself, but I think it can be done by a clever student)









======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT: Allowed,

as long as we stay on topic. If we go into speculation I will be

very quick to cut this short.





I think speculation should be on-topic here - how many posts do you have

so far this year? - but scientific specuation only, not subjective

woolly nonsense.


As to how to move Venus out from the Sun, a bit of speculation may be

needed ...


-- Peter Fairbrother

Why move a good thing, especially when most of its surface heating has little to with the small amount of solar influx.

Are you thinking we need to make Venus suitable for naked Goldilocks to frolic about, before it can be otherwise exploited?

On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 5:32:10 PM UTC-7, David Spain wrote:
On 7/23/2013 8:18 AM, Alain Fournier wrote:

On 07/19/2013 2:47 PM, Peter Fairbrother wrote:

On 13/07/13 19:27, Brad Guth wrote:

Keeping this topic within the laws of physics and best available

science, can we remote interpret and eventually exploit the extremely

nearby planet Venus?





Some interesting speculations!



Correct me if I'm wrong but it has been my understanding that Venus does

lie within the "habitable zone". That with a different atmospheric

composition it could be quite "Earth-like" within its current orbit.



The problem IIRC from what I've read in the past is a complete lack of a

magnetic field over a long period of time allowed solar wind erosion

that forced the change in atmospheric composition that led to all the

other nasty effects.



So, in the vein of scientifically oriented pure speculation, MY

suggestion would be not to move it at all. Instead find out what it's

core is made of. If that core could be magnetized, then surround the

planet with a solar powered field coil and *magnetize* it. One you've

established a suitable magnetic field you can start work on a terraform

of its atmosphere.



Putting wilder speculation aside, we've seen life flourish in some

pretty bizarre places on Earth (I'm thinking sea floor volcano vents),

would it not be possible for life to exist at some depth in the Venusian

atmosphere? It would be quite ironic that we devote so much time and

energy in trying to discover life on Mars when in fact it flourishes in

the atmosphere of our nearest planetary neighbor!



Dave





======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:

I'll note magnetizing an entire planet is getting fairly speculative. I'll allow for now but I'd love to see some numbers if anyone can.

That seems a wee bit of overkill, especially if it's just the easily extracted and refined metals that we're going after. We can't seem to cool off our own planet, so it seems rather unlikely we could do any better with Venus.

Isn't heat a basic requirement for processing of ore into refined metals?

On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 12:45:58 PM UTC-7, David Spain wrote:
On 7/20/2013 9:09 AM, David Spain wrote:

Well sure, but read my entire post. I didn't even suggest manned surface

exploration. Only a manned orbital station carrying out surface

exploration using unmanned (perhaps tele-operated) probes. And given the

extreme surface conditions, you'd likely need *many* probes so that new

ones can take over from old ones after they fail.



Speaking of telerobtic probes. This Friday, NASA will be testing this

very technology at Moffet Field. See:



http://www.nasa.gov/press/2013/july/.../#.UfArRHe0SEo


Dave

A telerobotic rigid airship could stay aloft (cursing well below them clouds) for months if not years.