A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Astronomy and Astrophysics » Astronomy Misc
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Largest structure ever seen in universe discovered, violates lawsof the Cosmological Principle!



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old January 13th 13, 10:20 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Yousuf Khan[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,692
Default Largest structure ever seen in universe discovered, violates lawsof the Cosmological Principle!

Universe’s Largest Structure Discovered | Astronomy | Sci-News.com
http://www.sci-news.com/astronomy/article00818.html

-it is an LQG (Large Quasar Group) consisting of 73 quasars.
-it looks like an elongated lizard in the constellation Leo
-average dimensions are 1.6 billion LY (500 Megaparsecs)
-longest dimension is 4 billion LY (1200 Megaparsecs).
-both of these dimensions are much larger than 370 Megaparsecs, which is
the largest structure size allowable under the laws of the Cosmological
Principle.
-This is also bad news about CMBR analysis, as CMBR agrees with
Cosmological Principle. If the CMBR is wrong about this, what else is it
wrong about? (Hint: Dark Matter and Dark Energy).

Here's the original Arxiv publication:

[1211.6256] A structure in the early universe at z ~ 1.3 that exceeds
the homogeneity scale of the R-W concordance cosmology
http://arxiv.org/abs/1211.6256

With its redshift of z=1.3 it's about 8.5 billion LY away from us.

Yousuf Khan
  #2  
Old January 14th 13, 03:01 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Sam Wormley[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,966
Default Largest structure ever seen in universe discovered, violateslaws of the Cosmological Principle!

On 1/13/13 3:20 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
[1211.6256] A structure in the early universe at z ~ 1.3 that exceeds
the homogeneity scale of the R-W concordance cosmology
http://arxiv.org/abs/1211.6256


I urge you to read Section 4 DISCUSSION OF HOMOGENEITY, AND CONCLUSIONS


  #3  
Old January 14th 13, 05:18 AM posted to sci.astro
In Fo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Largest structure ever seen in universe discovered, violatesla...

Lots of things wrong, it appears;

http://www.bibhasde.com/blackbody.html

In Fo

  #4  
Old January 16th 13, 02:53 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Yousuf Khan[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,692
Default Largest structure ever seen in universe discovered, violateslaws of the Cosmological Principle!

On 13/01/2013 9:01 PM, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 1/13/13 3:20 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
[1211.6256] A structure in the early universe at z ~ 1.3 that exceeds
the homogeneity scale of the R-W concordance cosmology
http://arxiv.org/abs/1211.6256


I urge you to read Section 4 DISCUSSION OF HOMOGENEITY, AND CONCLUSIONS


It could be a fluke, but this object covers about 0.3% of the surface
area of the visible universe. If it's a fluke, it's *huge* fluke.

Yousuf Khan
  #5  
Old January 17th 13, 10:46 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Steve Willner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,172
Default Largest structure ever seen in universe discovered, violates laws of the Cosmological Principle!

[referring to http://arxiv.org/abs/1211.6256 ]

In article ,
Yousuf Khan writes:
It could be a fluke, but this object covers about 0.3% of the surface
area of the visible universe.


How do you calculate that? Being generous, I get about half that
(about 15 degrees long by about 4 wide).

If it's a fluke, it's *huge* fluke.


The whole point is that it's big. The question is whether it's real.
The authors claim 3.8 sigma significance, so already I'm not too
excited. They also claim the density contrast is 0.4, which means,
if I understand them, that they expect 52 QSOs in the volume where
they find 73. Poisson statistics on those numbers would put the
significance at barely 3 sigma.

If this concentration is a real structure, presumably either there
were larger large-scale fluctuations in the early Universe than
simple theory says, or large-scale fluctuations somehow grow faster
than expected. Interesting, but I can't see how it much changes the
basic Big Bang cosmology. Maybe I'm missing something.

The first thing to do, though, is look for other observations that
can confirm or refute whether the claimed structure is real.

--
Help keep our newsgroup healthy; please don't feed the trolls.
Steve Willner Phone 617-495-7123
Cambridge, MA 02138 USA
  #6  
Old January 18th 13, 07:51 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Brad Guth[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15,175
Default Largest structure ever seen in universe discovered, violates lawsof the Cosmological Principle!

On Jan 13, 1:20*pm, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Universe’s Largest Structure Discovered | Astronomy | Sci-News.comhttp://www.sci-news.com/astronomy/article00818.html

-it is an LQG (Large Quasar Group) consisting of 73 quasars.
-it looks like an elongated lizard in the constellation Leo
-average dimensions are 1.6 billion LY (500 Megaparsecs)
-longest dimension is 4 billion LY (1200 Megaparsecs).
-both of these dimensions are much larger than 370 Megaparsecs, which is
the largest structure size allowable under the laws of the Cosmological
Principle.
-This is also bad news about CMBR analysis, as CMBR agrees with
Cosmological Principle. If the CMBR is wrong about this, what else is it
wrong about? (Hint: Dark Matter and Dark Energy).

Here's the original Arxiv publication:

[1211.6256] A structure in the early universe at z ~ 1.3 that exceeds
the homogeneity scale of the R-W concordance cosmologyhttp://arxiv.org/abs/1211.6256

With its redshift of z=1.3 it's about 8.5 billion LY away from us.

* * * * Yousuf Khan


And it's every bit as massive as another universe all by itself,
except compacted into far less than 0.1% the volume.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huge-LQG
The Huge-LQG with perhaps 6.1e18 Ms (1.22e49 kg) or possibly it’ll
get upward revised to 1e19 Ms (2e49 kg), is yet another big old
enormous item that apparently just now popped into view, as only that
of a recently discovered item that’s easily every bit as massive as
our previously known universe, except as having been compacted into
less than 0.1% the volume, and as such is starting to make the big
bang into the big dud or perhaps the Big FUD.

In other words, this one could blow and/or implode at any moment, and
because of the enormous delay in our detection of these distant
photons, it probably already has blown.
  #7  
Old January 19th 13, 10:15 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Mike Dworetsky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 715
Default Largest structure ever seen in universe discovered, violates laws of the Cosmological Principle!

Steve Willner wrote:
[referring to http://arxiv.org/abs/1211.6256 ]

In article ,
Yousuf Khan writes:
It could be a fluke, but this object covers about 0.3% of the surface
area of the visible universe.


How do you calculate that? Being generous, I get about half that
(about 15 degrees long by about 4 wide).

If it's a fluke, it's *huge* fluke.


The whole point is that it's big. The question is whether it's real.
The authors claim 3.8 sigma significance, so already I'm not too
excited. They also claim the density contrast is 0.4, which means,
if I understand them, that they expect 52 QSOs in the volume where
they find 73. Poisson statistics on those numbers would put the
significance at barely 3 sigma.

If this concentration is a real structure, presumably either there
were larger large-scale fluctuations in the early Universe than
simple theory says, or large-scale fluctuations somehow grow faster
than expected. Interesting, but I can't see how it much changes the
basic Big Bang cosmology. Maybe I'm missing something.

The first thing to do, though, is look for other observations that
can confirm or refute whether the claimed structure is real.


I noticed in the paper itself that the redshifts in the LQG ranged from
around 1.18 to 1.32 or so. And it was a rather straggly looking thing. A
lot of the argument seems to be about whether it is one object or two.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

  #8  
Old January 19th 13, 03:38 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Yousuf Khan[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,692
Default Largest structure ever seen in universe discovered, violateslaws of the Cosmological Principle!

On 17/01/2013 4:46 PM, Steve Willner wrote:
[referring to http://arxiv.org/abs/1211.6256 ]

In ,
Yousuf writes:
It could be a fluke, but this object covers about 0.3% of the surface
area of the visible universe.


How do you calculate that? Being generous, I get about half that
(about 15 degrees long by about 4 wide).


I make a simplifying assumption that the object is a rectangle of 1.6 x
4.0 billion light-years, giving 6.4 billion sq. light-years. Then the
surface area of the sphere of the visible universe would be a sphere of
radius 13.7 billion light-years, 2359 billion sq. light-years. 6.4 /
2359 is approx. 0.3%.

The object with a Doppler shift of z=1.3 is actually about 8 billion
light-years away from us, so I really should take the surface area of a
sphere of 8 billion light-years. This would make the object bigger in
perspective than 0.3%, it would make it more like 0.8%. But I'm being
conservative here.

How did you calculate it?

If this concentration is a real structure, presumably either there
were larger large-scale fluctuations in the early Universe than
simple theory says, or large-scale fluctuations somehow grow faster
than expected. Interesting, but I can't see how it much changes the
basic Big Bang cosmology. Maybe I'm missing something.


It would put into question the validity of CMBR analysis. CMBR analysis
has backed up the Cosmological Principle, therefore the Cosmological
Principle has backed up the CMBR analysis in reverse. Now if the
Cosmological Principle is invalid, then CMBR also gets put into a
question-mark state. If the CMBR was wrong about this, then what else
was it wrong about? Can we trust it's analysis about Dark Matter and
Dark Energy proportions?

Yousuf Khan
  #9  
Old January 19th 13, 11:28 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Brad Guth[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15,175
Default Largest structure ever seen in universe discovered, violates lawsof the Cosmological Principle!

On Jan 13, 1:20*pm, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Universe’s Largest Structure Discovered | Astronomy | Sci-News.comhttp://www.sci-news.com/astronomy/article00818.html

-it is an LQG (Large Quasar Group) consisting of 73 quasars.
-it looks like an elongated lizard in the constellation Leo
-average dimensions are 1.6 billion LY (500 Megaparsecs)
-longest dimension is 4 billion LY (1200 Megaparsecs).
-both of these dimensions are much larger than 370 Megaparsecs, which is
the largest structure size allowable under the laws of the Cosmological
Principle.
-This is also bad news about CMBR analysis, as CMBR agrees with
Cosmological Principle. If the CMBR is wrong about this, what else is it
wrong about? (Hint: Dark Matter and Dark Energy).

Here's the original Arxiv publication:

[1211.6256] A structure in the early universe at z ~ 1.3 that exceeds
the homogeneity scale of the R-W concordance cosmologyhttp://arxiv.org/abs/1211.6256

With its redshift of z=1.3 it's about 8.5 billion LY away from us.

* * * * Yousuf Khan


Perhaps the shape of things to come:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huge-LQG
The Huge-LQG with perhaps 6.1e18 Ms (1.22e49 kg) or possibly it’ll
get upward revised to 1e19 Ms (2e49 kg), is yet another seriously big
old enormous item that apparently just now popped into view, as only
that of a recently discovered item that’s easily every bit as massive
in its molecular mass as our previously known universe, except as
having been compacted into less than 0.1% the volume, and as such is
starting to make the big bang into the Big Dud or perhaps the Big FUD.

In other words, this one enormous item could blow and/or implode at
any moment, and because of the enormous redshift delay that’s
representing 8.5 billion years worth of delaying our detection of
these extremely distant photons, so perhaps it already has blown as of
billions of years ago, though otherwise possibly this monstrous
formation of considerable mass had only formulated as of 8.5 billion
years ago and still has a few billion years to go.

Our local “Great Attractor” has a very long ways to go before becoming
worth 0.1% as much mass as the "Huge LQG".

  #10  
Old January 24th 13, 09:42 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Steve Willner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,172
Default Largest structure ever seen in universe discovered, violates laws of the Cosmological Principle!

SW Being generous, I get about half that
SW (about 15 degrees long by about 4 wide).

In article ,
Yousuf Khan writes:
I make a simplifying assumption that the object is a rectangle of 1.6 x
4.0 billion light-years,


You are making things harder than they need to be.

How did you calculate it?


Just as I wrote above using the angular sizes given. There are about
41253 square degrees in a sphere. I'm still not sure exactly where
we disagree, but it doesn't matter to the accuracy we care about.

It would put into question the validity of CMBR analysis.


I'm afraid I don't follow that at all. The fluctuations in the CMBR
have been measured. Those measurements won't change. In particular,
nobody is going to discover that the CMBR fluctuations are twice as
large as current measurements say. (None of this implies new, more
accurate measurements are of no value.)

If the claimed structure is real, it might change our picture of
evolution _since_ the CMBR. That would be interesting, but
personally I'm waiting for better data.

--
Help keep our newsgroup healthy; please don't feed the trolls.
Steve Willner Phone 617-495-7123
Cambridge, MA 02138 USA
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Largest structure found, challenges cosmological principle dlzc Astronomy Misc 15 January 18th 13 08:18 PM
Largest Structure in Universe Discovered [email protected] Policy 0 January 12th 13 04:20 AM
Chapt22 future news-- second ring like structure will be discovered#227 Atom Totality (Atom Universe) theory Archimedes Plutonium[_2_] Astronomy Misc 0 December 30th 09 07:46 AM
cosmological large-scale structure on the orientation of galaxies Sam Wormley Amateur Astronomy 15 May 10th 06 08:11 AM
The Cosmological Principle Sam Wormley Amateur Astronomy 21 September 26th 05 07:24 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.