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Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?



 
 
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  #71  
Old October 11th 03, 03:41 AM
Paul R. Mays
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?


"Tedd" wrote in message
...

"Jack" wrote in message
m...
"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message

...
Paul R. Mays wrote:


Thats a start but theres a much longer list....

Where is solid measureable evidence to which a carbon dataing protocol
can be applied? Speculations which support your speculations are not
evidence. Quotations from ancient scraps are not evidence. Ancient
writing could be bull****, fairytales or the truth. In the absence of
solid evidence you have nothing.

Bob Kolker


someone from one of the science newsgroups ought to weigh in here with
some authority, but isn't correlated carbon dating extremely accurate
for this time period? edkookradian speculations are way off the mark
here.


carbon dating has a potential range back to somewhere around 60,000 years.
however, dates over 50,000 are generally thrown out unless they have
exceptionally strong stratagraphic context to support them. otherwise

40,000 is
the general limit to consider with any great deal of accuracy. anything

within
12-15,000 years the technique is quite accurate and quite cheep. making it

the
bread and butter method for paleo & archaic contexts. as the dates get

older
there is a greater range of error which is where you get the +/- X amount

of
years.

as for weighing in here with some authority,... i think some of us are

actually
getting a kick out of watching how far off they can be with some of their

claims
and counter arguments. "2+2=3" "no, you're stupid! it equals 5!",... and

so on.
(or maybe they just like to argue) :-)




Smart Quote: " 2+2=5 for large values of 2"

But just to clarify.. I make no claims.. I state that
some people of note have given specific evidence that
supports the view of a larger civilization than what the
present historical record indicate.. I'm have never
mentioned the Atlantis myths, or the same flood myths
of biblical context. Yes there were great floods.. Not
one will argue that the ocean was 400 to 600 feet lower
than today during the period in question... I don't think
there's much argument that when the primary ice sheets
receded the water held as ice Flooded vast areas that
would have been high and dry lands... Not my claims..
there is evidence in abundance... from the Bad Lands that
were formed from an ice dam break to giant rocks moved
hundreds of miles from the flows. All I'm saying is there
is a lot of evidence .... is it absolute proof... nope... in
large part because we have a model that precludes the
possibility and will make even very good evidence suspect
for a long time until further evidence is found that answers
some of the questions raised by the writers and researches I
posted links for... I'm just pointing out that some people
want others to do all the thinking and foot work while all
they can do is rant without even looking at evidence
provided because they didn't get a committee to tell them
the evidence is OK...



  #72  
Old October 11th 03, 03:46 AM
Robert J. Kolker
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?



Paul R. Mays wrote:
I gave you links to the evidence that a great number of
people agrees has merit... You do your own home work...


I read every one. There is evidence of very old human habitations which
are now under water. So what? Does that make them Atlantis?

The most solid discoveries of the bunch offer no proof whatsoever of
Atlantis or Lemura or Mu. No evidence of advanced technologies in
ancient times. No Atlantean anti-gravity machines.

I keep asking you where is the beef, and you keep showing me the
location of the baloney.

I have a rule. If a speculation sound the least like Von Danikken,
reject it out of hand. Even Von D. admits he was a bull**** artist. I
have another rule. Anything thing like Velikovsky proof that Venus made
the sun stand still for Joshua is automatically laughed out of court.
Velikovsky was a crackpot and a crank, plain and simple.

So what does that leave? Legitimate archeologists who do not make
fantastical claims about their findings.

Bob Kolker

  #73  
Old October 11th 03, 03:52 AM
Paul R. Mays
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?


"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Paul R. Mays wrote:

http://www.guardians.net/hawass/remnants.htm
http://www.grahamhancock.com/news/index.php
http://www.grahamhancock.com/library/bookshop.php
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/nation/2962443.htm
http://archives.mundoacuatico.com/oc...iousstones.pdf

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...kencities.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1923794.stm

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in522626.shtml
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/detail.asp?ID=32604&GRP=A
http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html
http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue1...apanunder.html


I looked at them all. I am underwhelmed. Aside from some signs of
habitations that have been submerged, what can you say about the people
who used to live there? Nothing specific. Nothing definite. In short
you have evidence of human habitations that have been flood by rising
seas. So what? When they find Venice underwater 10,000 years from now,
will they say Venice is Atlantis?

Bob Kolker



The point, O' intelligent one, is that if there are building
at 400 to 600 feet under the sea the only time that spot would have
been a place to spend your summer vacation was during the last
ice age... I said nothing about Atlantis , which I regard as myth based
on the verbal histories past down from the period of retreat...

Noticed I said IF... The jury is out at this time.. But the evidence is
there for your mind to ponder... soon as your committee says its ok to
read it.. Go to the Library and check out the whole books I sent you
the links for.. there's massive physical evidence... you just glanced
and come up with building 10 k years old "(When they find Venice
underwater 10,000 years from now, ) " add another 5 and you are almost
there in your conceptualizing... Read, Study, research the subject that
has been under study for a long time then make up your mind..






  #74  
Old October 11th 03, 04:03 AM
Paul R. Mays
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?


"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Tedd wrote:

as for weighing in here with some authority,... i think some of us are

actually
getting a kick out of watching how far off they can be with some of

their claims
and counter arguments. "2+2=3" "no, you're stupid! it equals 5!",... and

so on.
(or maybe they just like to argue) :-)


How about ? + ? = ? therefore Atlantis exists?

Asking for hard evidence is very reasonable. The more outrageous the
claim, the better should be the evidence that supports it. The world is
filled with assholes who see Atlantis in every "mysterious" archeologic
al discovery. So far I have seen Atlantis near Japan, near Cuba, near
Egypt. Where else will Atlantis be next year?

Bob Kolker


Atlantis is myth.. a story told and placed on parchment long ago..
I'm not speaking of anything to do with the mythological Atlantis...
I speaking only of the documented physical evidence that says
something happened in the 15 to 20 k ago time frame that seems
to point to a larger population and a global civilization that was
reduced to a few thousand scattered individuals around 70 k ago
and rebounded somewhat till around 20 k ago when it was reduced
again and the ice retreated. The DNA bottle neck points to that
and many of the finds we are now coming across point to it..

If you just read a few of the books and check the evidence provided
yourself and actually Think about it you might see what the buzz
is about in Cuba.. Not Atlantis...

Heck we are finding new lost cities all the time and they are
recent , just a couple k old, but we had no idea of some of them
until we used sat's to look a bit..

Just remember.. just 1 little man made varifable building
at 400 feet is proof that there "Was a civilization that existed
13 000 years ago" which was the topic... no Atlantis mentioned..


  #75  
Old October 11th 03, 04:06 AM
Paul R. Mays
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Posts: n/a
Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?


"Tedd" wrote in message
...

"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...

snip

So what? When they find Venice underwater 10,000 years from now,
will they say Venice is Atlantis?

Bob Kolker



depends on which of three approaches they subscribe to;

1.) prove it! prove it! prove it! i want evidence! i want evidence! prove

it!

2.) sorry, the idea doesnt fit with the evidence of what we do know.

and 3.) wont say a word, just sit back and laugh that someone is actually
arguing about it.

i fall somewhere between 2. and 3. which 1. are you?



4. ) I found a city under water that's 10 k years old and I don't
know what it is yet but its worth studying to see if I can find out....


I'm solidly on 4.....


  #76  
Old October 11th 03, 04:12 AM
Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:56:59 -0600, "Carl R. Osterwald"
wrote in alt.fan.art-bell:


And if they had made stuff from steel, after this time
you would find iron oxide dust scattered over miles
of lands by moving mile thick sheets of ice....


HUGE POOLS OF MOLTEN STEEL!!



BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
--
V.G.

"People are more violently opposed to fur than leather, because it is easier to harrass
rich women than it is motorcycle gangs." - Bumper Sticker
(This sig file contains not less than 80% recycled SPAM)

Sarcasm is my sword, Apathy is my shield.
  #77  
Old October 11th 03, 04:21 AM
Paul R. Mays
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Posts: n/a
Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?


"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Paul R. Mays wrote:
I gave you links to the evidence that a great number of
people agrees has merit... You do your own home work...


I read every one. There is evidence of very old human habitations which
are now under water. So what? Does that make them Atlantis?


Read the subject line 3 times and repeat.. atlantis is myth, atlantis
is myth, atlantis is myth...


The most solid discoveries of the bunch offer no proof whatsoever of
Atlantis or Lemura or Mu. No evidence of advanced technologies in
ancient times. No Atlantean anti-gravity machines.


Who the **** said anything about any of that crap...


I keep asking you where is the beef, and you keep showing me the
location of the baloney.


You read very poorly don't you... Go to the big building
with all the books and read the details .... the web is not a place
for study hall.. I gave you a list of books that provide many, many
forms of evidence.. not for super human anti grav crap.. but for evidence
of a civilization that predates what we have held as fact .. Not whizz bang
advanced technology or glow in the dark magic... evidence that many
think is valid of a global civilization that predates what we have come
to consider history...


I have a rule. If a speculation sound the least like Von Danikken,
reject it out of hand. Even Von D. admits he was a bull**** artist. I
have another rule. Anything thing like Velikovsky proof that Venus made
the sun stand still for Joshua is automatically laughed out of court.
Velikovsky was a crackpot and a crank, plain and simple.

So what does that leave? Legitimate archeologists who do not make
fantastical claims about their findings.


I remember reading about a fantastic claim that the earth was round
at one time... then some idiot made the claim that the earth actually
orbited the sun... those fools... oh yea... they were right after all...



Bob Kolker



  #78  
Old October 11th 03, 06:22 AM
Thomas McDonald
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Posts: n/a
Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

"Paul R. Mays" wrote in message
...

"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Paul R. Mays wrote:

Cities under a few hundred feet of water and 90 or so
feet of ocean debris can wipe a few traces.. and how
much of a trace would you say a 200 foot tall stone
building would leave... after being scraped over by a
couple miles of ice.... for a 1000 years or so...


You have not produced the means to distinguish between no such city
ever, and a city wiped clean. In the absence of evidence you have not a
square yard to stand on. All you offer us if feeble speculations not
backed up by anything other than your foolish fantisizing.

Bob Kolker



I'm not the expert and I make no claims.. I have read and considered
many areas of studies and I have found reasonable evidence provided
by many writers that actually got off their asses ( unlike you) and
researched the possibilities... Just because you have a limited mental
ability to comprehend evidence presented by many well informed and
respected researchers does not mean that a simple layman as I would
waste my time repeating the writings of those that have spent their
lives actually doing the research in order to spoon feed your knowledge
void.

http://www.guardians.net/hawass/remnants.htm
http://www.grahamhancock.com/news/index.php
http://www.grahamhancock.com/library/bookshop.php
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/nation/2962443.htm
http://archives.mundoacuatico.com/oc...iousstones.pdf

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...kencities.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1923794.stm

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in522626.shtml
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/detail.asp?ID=32604&GRP=A
http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html
http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue1...apanunder.html


That's a start but there's a much longer list....


Paul,

Do you really suggest that the above list are the 'references' you are
using?

You do not have a clue about providing references in an orderly and
meaningful way, do you? Most of the items are crap, already shown to be
wrong. Several are links to on-line bookstores, not to information that can
be reviewed. One, a CBS news site, gets very wrong the date at which the
Aztecs first learned about Teotihuacan; and is, in any case, a journalistic
work (as are most of the rest of your "references"), not scientific work.

You might be posting from alt.fan.art-bell; I don't know. But the other
three groups you're cross-posting to are sci. groups, and in science,
evidence is presented carefully, is discussed and debated in a scientific
way, and is not conducted via dueling news stories.

Tom McDonald
remove 'nohormel' to reply


  #79  
Old October 11th 03, 07:30 AM
Paul R. Mays
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?


"Thomas McDonald" wrote in message
...
"Paul R. Mays" wrote in message
...

"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Paul R. Mays wrote:

Cities under a few hundred feet of water and 90 or so
feet of ocean debris can wipe a few traces.. and how
much of a trace would you say a 200 foot tall stone
building would leave... after being scraped over by a
couple miles of ice.... for a 1000 years or so...

You have not produced the means to distinguish between no such city
ever, and a city wiped clean. In the absence of evidence you have not

a
square yard to stand on. All you offer us if feeble speculations not
backed up by anything other than your foolish fantasizing.

Bob Kolker



I'm not the expert and I make no claims.. I have read and considered
many areas of studies and I have found reasonable evidence provided
by many writers that actually got off their asses ( unlike you) and
researched the possibilities... Just because you have a limited mental
ability to comprehend evidence presented by many well informed and
respected researchers does not mean that a simple layman as I would
waste my time repeating the writings of those that have spent their
lives actually doing the research in order to spoon feed your knowledge
void.

http://www.guardians.net/hawass/remnants.htm
http://www.grahamhancock.com/news/index.php
http://www.grahamhancock.com/library/bookshop.php
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/nation/2962443.htm
http://archives.mundoacuatico.com/oc...iousstones.pdf


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...kencities.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1923794.stm


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in522626.shtml
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/detail.asp?ID=32604&GRP=A
http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html
http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue1...apanunder.html


That's a start but there's a much longer list....


Paul,

Do you really suggest that the above list are the 'references' you are
using?

You do not have a clue about providing references in an orderly and
meaningful way, do you? Most of the items are crap, already shown to be
wrong. Several are links to on-line bookstores, not to information that

can
be reviewed. One, a CBS news site, gets very wrong the date at which the
Aztecs first learned about Teotihuacán; and is, in any case, a

journalistic
work (as are most of the rest of your "references"), not scientific work.

You might be posting from alt.fan.art-bell; I don't know. But the

other
three groups you're cross-posting to are sci. groups, and in science,
evidence is presented carefully, is discussed and debated in a scientific
way, and is not conducted via dueling news stories.


Maybe in a nice class room somewhere but on a few
newsgroups on the internet where the likes of TJ, Smart, Spacey
and others banter about, I think I might just be allowed to do and
say pretty much what ever the **** I want to ... and say it
in any way I wish.. When the time comes that I wish to have
a peer review of some aspect of my own postulates I will take the
time to quote from the books, provide an out line, bibliography,
organized reference lists etc.. Till then I'll just say go to the
big building in your town that has all those dusty old paper things
with all the letters printed in them.... They use to be called books...
and there's a lot of them and many have some neat stuff.....




Tom McDonald
remove 'nohormel' to reply



I'm not writing a dissertation for peer review folks....
I could sit down and go through the many books on the
subject ( I really hope you guys don't really rely on the
internet as your primary information source) then individually
post a series of supporting links and a complete bibliography
of all reference material... But I really don't care that much...

If you carefully read what I have written through this thread you
might notice that I said these are not my suggestions of evidence...

These are positions made by many writers, some I fully agree read
the evidence and make statements that are far fetched... But they
point to Evidence..... not proof... and many of the writers in the
book listing pages have many pages of calculations, physical
objects and a host of very specific pieces of evidence. To
suggest that we all should give up reading the books, and just
stick to getting your knowledge base on the internet, is a good
way to examine the presented evidence is a whole new thread...

The links I put up were just a quick capture and were not a
follow up to some claim of proof of anything.. Just a few
bits with some names of books that you can actually read and
get some very detailed pieces of presented evidence.. some of
the writers may from time to time make wild ass claims as to
what they think the evidence means but it does not make the
evidence they provide not have value.. If I found a buried bag
with a 3 pound diamond in it and claim that it must have been
left by aliens, that is a foolish claim, but the diamond a very
interesting find worthy of further study all by itself...


I'll just ask you just one thing and see if you will actually do
your own leg work and see if there's something a bit weird...

Map all the pyramids around Gaza ..... Match the positions
of the 7 stars of the Orion constellation on any star charting
software .... Rotate the constellation backward in time until
the positions of all 7 of the Gaza pyramids match the positions
of the 7 stars in the constellation... Thinks that's bunk don't ya...
Ya think its just some wild claim... Try it....

Then think about our present model...


  #80  
Old October 11th 03, 09:46 AM
Jack
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

"Paul R. Mays" wrote in message ...

All I'm saying is there
is a lot of evidence .... is it absolute proof... nope... in
large part because we have a model that precludes the
possibility


how convenient. not only does your theory defy proof or disproof
(which makes it a nontheory, even on the art bell newsgroup), you flat
out ignore contrary evidence that falsifies your claim.


and will make even very good evidence suspect
for a long time until further evidence is found that answers
some of the questions raised by the writers and researches I
posted links for...


great idea. shift the burden of proof to people who disagree with
your claims, demand that they disprove your speculation.


I'm just pointing out that some people
want others to do all the thinking and foot work while all
they can do is rant without even looking at evidence
provided because they didn't get a committee to tell them
the evidence is OK...



you're just crying Konspiracy, a standard tactic of kooks everywhere.
 




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