Improved lunar landing architecture

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005, Cardman wrote:

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 19:26:48 GMT, "Michael Rhino"
wrote:

Some people keep talking about Mars which would take money away from the
Lunar program.

Mars is the main goal here. Some people would prefer a more direct
route, without going to the Moon first. They believe that the Moon
programme simply delays, and puts at risk, the Mars programme.

They are right that from Earth to Mars is easier than stop over at moon.
They are wrong to scorn lunar habitat. What's important about that is
experience in extremely dusty environments and development of technology
that will be most usefully adapted to staying on Mars. This learning
experience is most important to avoid sending guys to live on Mars
for days, weeks or months with half bake and untested technology.

I think that CEV should be designed as a Lunar rocket and
nothing else.

The CEV is designed into a modular system, where it can also be the
head end on a larger Mars craft.

One size fits all fiasco.

I can see having temporary habitats in addition to a permanently manned
base. Suppose that astronauts land at the equator, go to a hut to change
clothes and then drive down to the permanent base near the south pole. You
could also have a temporary hut near a mining location.

Well a TransHab is not exactly a hut. Also what you currently overlook
is that your TransHab needs to be buried under a nice thick layer of
lunar regolith.

Find a nearby lave tube to move into. Mars has them too, but likely
not near water as perhaps the moon does.

That is done to keep your astronauts alive when a powerful solar storm
washes over the lunar surface. So if you desire to move a temporary
base about, then that is a lot of work to dig it up and then to bury
it again.

Cardman wrote:

Anyway, you can rest assured that the Sun never sets on "the peak of
eternal sunlight", which is why this place would make a good location
to build a base. Also it is not too far from the assumed water.

The moon has a 1.5 degree axial tilt. There may be a "peak of eternal
sunlight" but, so far as I know, its existence remains unconfirmed.

I believe that is one of the goals of ESA's SMART-1.



--
Hop David
http://clowder.net/hop/index.html

"Alex Terrell" wrote in message
oups.com...

Cardman wrote:
On 6 Aug 2005 04:14:16 -0700, "Alex Terrell"
wrote:

I would much prefer to have the base all up and running even before
the first astronaut steps foot on there. They could have a rover do
some required assembly.


Well, that's the approach I've taken he
http://fp.alexterrell.plus.com/web/C...stellation.pdf

On page 14 of 66 you'll see the crew are just the 8th delivery to the
polar base. Once the crew arrive, there's a commitment to regular
supply and support flights.

And the one thing that NASA won't grasp or do in a million years is to
actually keep people there to live and work. Construction seems like
the first priority. Communication, electricity, water (hopefully) and
to pave over the entire area to keep that pesky regolith out.

I've put in water mining and electrolysis, and general base development
initially.

I see a garage as being useful. An unmanned truck is outside working.
Eventually, it pulls into the garage, the door closes, and the air pressure
increases. Somebody comes in and either services the truck or looks at the
rocks it brought back. A tow truck could bring broken trucks or power plant
parts in for repair. This would require a much bigger airlock than NASA has
ever used before.

The garage may end up being the main place where humans do useful work.
Space suits are bulky and I don't think that people will do a lot of useful
work with them on.

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 04:21:44 GMT, "Michael Rhino"
wrote:

I see a garage as being useful. An unmanned truck is outside working.
Eventually, it pulls into the garage, the door closes, and the air pressure
increases. Somebody comes in and either services the truck or looks at the
rocks it brought back. A tow truck could bring broken trucks or power plant
parts in for repair. This would require a much bigger airlock than NASA has
ever used before.

That kind of reminds me of the movie Aliens. Big thick double doors
before they entered the base. Although they mostly terraformed that
planet, which left their airlock feature now mostly unused.

Now although I am sure that NASA could do such a system, had they
really wanted, but you just have to wonder their efficiency in sucking
all that air back out.

In other words I am sure that there would be quite some air loss every
time that they used it. Also I can see the need for this being quite a
fast system, what with vehicles being in and out a lot.

The garage may end up being the main place where humans do useful work.
Space suits are bulky and I don't think that people will do a lot of useful
work with them on.

It seems most likely that the people involved would work in
pressurised vehicles, where this is a lot better than trying to
operate them by remote control. In fact it is worth while building in
both options and letting them decide what one to use.

Most equipment I expect would be linked into a command center, where
they just keep an eye on how it is working. Turn it on. Turn it off.
Send someone out to fix it. Or have a vehicle carry it back to the
garage for repair.

The regolith dust could pose quite a hazard here.

Cardman.

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005, Alex Terrell wrote:

Cardman wrote:
On 6 Aug 2005 04:14:16 -0700, "Alex Terrell"
wrote:

I would much prefer to have the base all up and running even before
the first astronaut steps foot on there. They could have a rover do
some required assembly.

Well, that's the approach I've taken he
http://fp.alexterrell.plus.com/web/C...stellation.pdf

On page 14 of 66 you'll see the crew are just the 8th delivery to the
polar base. Once the crew arrive, there's a commitment to regular
supply and support flights.

Is this a SF novel?

And the one thing that NASA won't grasp or do in a million years is to
actually keep people there to live and work. Construction seems like
the first priority. Communication, electricity, water (hopefully) and
to pave over the entire area to keep that pesky regolith out.

I've put in water mining and electrolysis, and general base development
initially.

Did you invite NASA?

Michael Rhino wrote:
"Alex Terrell" wrote in message
oups.com...


I see a garage as being useful. An unmanned truck is outside working.
Eventually, it pulls into the garage, the door closes, and the air pressure
increases. Somebody comes in and either services the truck or looks at the
rocks it brought back. A tow truck could bring broken trucks or power plant
parts in for repair. This would require a much bigger airlock than NASA has
ever used before.

The garage may end up being the main place where humans do useful work.
Space suits are bulky and I don't think that people will do a lot of useful
work with them on.

Absolutely. Especially if you think what the crew are actually going to
do.

They're not going to sit in the hab module and program computers, or
even manage systems. That'll be done by guys on Earth costing a mere
$10,000 per month.

Equally, they're not going to be digging regolith. That'll be done by
robots, either automatic or remote controlled from Earth. And
astronauts will be limited to about 1 hour per day outside due to
radiation.

Most of their working time, they're going to be fixing stuff. So a
shielded, pressurised workshop is essential.

Alex Terrell wrote:

I've put in water mining and electrolysis, and general base development
initially.



You'd better hope you can get that 200 tons of water for the ice
radiation shield on-site, because moving it up from Earth ain't going to
be cheap.

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:
Alex Terrell wrote:

I've put in water mining and electrolysis, and general base development
initially.



You'd better hope you can get that 200 tons of water for the ice
radiation shield on-site, because moving it up from Earth ain't going to
be cheap.

That's why the polar base exists.

Cardman wrote:


Your large domes would find another interesting use it seems. Give
people wings and they could fly like the birds. Sound like a good
first lunar sports event. Throw in a ball and all that.



Yeah... we could call it "batball". :-)

Pat

Alex Terrell wrote:



You'd better hope you can get that 200 tons of water for the ice
radiation shield on-site, because moving it up from Earth ain't going to
be cheap.



That's why the polar base exists.



The question is: Does the polar ice exist?
That's still a very open question.

Pat

Pat