A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Space Science » Policy
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Paper published on producing arbitrarily long nanotubes.



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old August 20th 16, 07:37 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science
Robert Clark[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Paper published on producing arbitrarily long nanotubes.

American Journal of Nanomaterials
Vol. 4, No. 2, 2016, pp 39-43. doi: 10.12691/ajn-4-2-2 | Research Article
From Nanoscale to Macroscale: Applications of Nanotechnology to Production
of Bulk Ultra-Strong Materials.
Robert Clark
Department of Mathematics, Widener University, Chester, United States
http://pubs.sciepub.com/ajn/4/2/2/index.html

Next stop: the space elevator.

Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  #2  
Old August 21st 16, 07:21 AM posted to sci.space.policy
William Mook[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,840
Default Paper published on producing arbitrarily long nanotubes.

On Sunday, August 21, 2016 at 6:37:07 AM UTC+12, Robert Clark wrote:
American Journal of Nanomaterials
Vol. 4, No. 2, 2016, pp 39-43. doi: 10.12691/ajn-4-2-2 | Research Article
From Nanoscale to Macroscale: Applications of Nanotechnology to Production
of Bulk Ultra-Strong Materials.
Robert Clark
Department of Mathematics, Widener University, Chester, United States
http://pubs.sciepub.com/ajn/4/2/2/index.html

Next stop: the space elevator.

Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Before space elevator, look for very lightweight, very capable high pressure tanks and rocket engine casings.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom...rado-9607.html

http://www.grantadesign.com/download...-RW-UOC-EN.pdf

http://www.pnylab.com/pny/papers/youngs/youngs.pdf

Young's modulus of materials that exhibit 1200 GPa at 1.4 g/cc makes it 12x stronger than an epoxy matrix at about the same density!

This will allow the weight of an aircraft structure to fall from 47% of a plane's weight to 4% of a plane's weight!

In aerospace practical nanotube structures, will allow a high pressure tank to go from 20 atm (300 psi) to 200 atm (3,000 psi) and permit the elimination of turbomachinery altogether, whilst improving thrust to weight from 120 to 1 to 1,500 to 1 in conventionally scaled engines operating at 200 atm, with overall structure fractions in the 1% range even with low density cryogenic fuels. Performance goes even higher with MEMS scale engines, since engine thrust scales with area and engine weight scales with volume - 12,000 to 1 for MEMS scale engine arrays!

http://www.ese.iitb.ac.in/~pratibha/...ey,%202009.pdf

Very high pressure allows the storage of hydrogen as a supercritical slush. Hybrid storage of hydrogen, where high pressure is applied to store hydrogen as slush or a supercritical fluid. By cooling pure hydrogen below the freezing point at 259 -C, a mixture of solid and liquid hydrogen, called slush, can be produced. This provides higher energy densities if high pressure may be maintained at low mass. Nanotubes provides a means to achieve this.

At 200 bar and 20 K a density of 90 kg/m3 is achieved in liquid hydrogen. Figure 1.21 page 32 in the reference above. This is 30% greater than its density at boiling point.

LOX has a density at its boiling point of 1,141 kg/m3. A similar increase is possible with LOX at 200 bar at 52 K - increasing density to 1,483 kg/m3..

With a 6 to 1 oxidizer to fuel ratio, at 200 bar combustion chamber pressure, specific impulse of 495 seconds 4.85 km/sec exhaust speed - is achieved. With a 2% structure fraction a SSTO vehicle with 85% propellant fraction is possible and a 13% payload fraction! This is about the same as today's airliner in terms of payload! With a 461.8 kg/m3 average propellant density at this oxidiser fuel ratio

A Boeing 737-300 has a payload of 14.25 metric tons. So, a 109.6 metric tons take off weight for the aforementioned SSTO. 2.20 tonne structure built out of nanotube fibres as described. 93,160 kg of propellant occupying 201.7 cubic meters. A 7.3 meter (23.9 ft) diameter sphere, in the centre of a disk that has a crew cabin around the equator of the sphere, equipped with a propulsive skin burning hydrogen and oxygen, either stored on board or from the atmosphere - using the Coanda effect to multiply lift. A 100 ft diameter sphere with two floors. This ship should be capable of orbiting the Earth and returning, as well as travelling to any point on Earth in a matter of 45 minutes or less.

Nanotube monocoque structrures used in architecture would revolutionize construction. Parts would be fabricated and nested together in quite compact forms given their thinness and easily transported anywhere. Geodesic structures of immense size could be easily erected anywhere with materials of this strength and lightness.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3848576a91.jpg

We can do amazing things with aluminum - we can do even better with nanotube materials!



  #3  
Old August 21st 16, 05:38 PM posted to sci.space.policy
William Mook[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,840
Default Paper published on producing arbitrarily long nanotubes.

On Sunday, August 21, 2016 at 6:21:06 PM UTC+12, William Mook wrote:
On Sunday, August 21, 2016 at 6:37:07 AM UTC+12, Robert Clark wrote:
American Journal of Nanomaterials
Vol. 4, No. 2, 2016, pp 39-43. doi: 10.12691/ajn-4-2-2 | Research Article
From Nanoscale to Macroscale: Applications of Nanotechnology to Production
of Bulk Ultra-Strong Materials.
Robert Clark
Department of Mathematics, Widener University, Chester, United States
http://pubs.sciepub.com/ajn/4/2/2/index.html

Next stop: the space elevator.

Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Before space elevator, look for very lightweight, very capable high pressure tanks and rocket engine casings.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom...rado-9607.html

http://www.grantadesign.com/download...-RW-UOC-EN.pdf

http://www.pnylab.com/pny/papers/youngs/youngs.pdf

Young's modulus of materials that exhibit 1200 GPa at 1.4 g/cc makes it 12x stronger than an epoxy matrix at about the same density!

This will allow the weight of an aircraft structure to fall from 47% of a plane's weight to 4% of a plane's weight!

In aerospace practical nanotube structures, will allow a high pressure tank to go from 20 atm (300 psi) to 200 atm (3,000 psi) and permit the elimination of turbomachinery altogether, whilst improving thrust to weight from 120 to 1 to 1,500 to 1 in conventionally scaled engines operating at 200 atm, with overall structure fractions in the 1% range even with low density cryogenic fuels. Performance goes even higher with MEMS scale engines, since engine thrust scales with area and engine weight scales with volume - 12,000 to 1 for MEMS scale engine arrays!

http://www.ese.iitb.ac.in/~pratibha/...ey,%202009.pdf

Very high pressure allows the storage of hydrogen as a supercritical slush. Hybrid storage of hydrogen, where high pressure is applied to store hydrogen as slush or a supercritical fluid. By cooling pure hydrogen below the freezing point at 259 -C, a mixture of solid and liquid hydrogen, called slush, can be produced. This provides higher energy densities if high pressure may be maintained at low mass. Nanotubes provides a means to achieve this.

At 200 bar and 20 K a density of 90 kg/m3 is achieved in liquid hydrogen. Figure 1.21 page 32 in the reference above. This is 30% greater than its density at boiling point.

LOX has a density at its boiling point of 1,141 kg/m3. A similar increase is possible with LOX at 200 bar at 52 K - increasing density to 1,483 kg/m3.

With a 6 to 1 oxidizer to fuel ratio, at 200 bar combustion chamber pressure, specific impulse of 495 seconds 4.85 km/sec exhaust speed - is achieved. With a 2% structure fraction a SSTO vehicle with 85% propellant fraction is possible and a 13% payload fraction! This is about the same as today's airliner in terms of payload! With a 461.8 kg/m3 average propellant density at this oxidiser fuel ratio

A Boeing 737-300 has a payload of 14.25 metric tons. So, a 109.6 metric tons take off weight for the aforementioned SSTO. 2.20 tonne structure built out of nanotube fibres as described. 93,160 kg of propellant occupying 201.7 cubic meters. A 7.3 meter (23.9 ft) diameter sphere, in the centre of a disk that has a crew cabin around the equator of the sphere, equipped with a propulsive skin burning hydrogen and oxygen, either stored on board or from the atmosphere - using the Coanda effect to multiply lift. A 100 ft diameter sphere with two floors. This ship should be capable of orbiting the Earth and returning, as well as travelling to any point on Earth in a matter of 45 minutes or less.

Nanotube monocoque structrures used in architecture would revolutionize construction. Parts would be fabricated and nested together in quite compact forms given their thinness and easily transported anywhere. Geodesic structures of immense size could be easily erected anywhere with materials of this strength and lightness.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3848576a91.jpg

We can do amazing things with aluminum - we can do even better with nanotube materials!



Aircraft today are;

47% structure
15% payload
38% fuel

Going to

04% structure
15% payload
81% fuel

Increase the Brequet factor from 0.478 to 1.661 which is 3.474x the range!

A Boeing 737 goes from 4,304 km to 14,605 km range and its fuel goes from 23,170 litres to 49,237 litres as its structural weight falls from 45.4 tonnes to 4.0 tonnes using nanotube fibre.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...k-20090105.png

Using slush liquid hydrogen at 90 kg/m3 at 200 bar, and 78.2 tonnes of hydrogen, on board (868,890 litres) multiplies range another factor of 3.08 or 44,983 km - allowing round the world flight without refuelling! This solves the problem of hydrogen distribution!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen-powered_aircraft

Another option of course would be to vastly improve payload!

Tiny drone craft would replace large airliners that are common today.

http://www.ehang.com/ehang184

Consider a payload equal to that of a typical passenger vehicle. 0.4 tonnes. Take off weight is 2.7 tonnes. Structure weight is 0.1 tonnes. That's how much nanotube material you need. This leaves 3.5 tonnes hydrogen fuel.. At 90 kg/m3 this occupies a volume of 38.9 cubic meters. Add in the volume of a luxury car interior (3.4 cubic meters) and you have a total volume of 42.3 cubic meters for the craft.

Contained within an oblate sphere 1.44 meters in height and 12.97 meters in diameter equipped with a propulsive 'smart skin' that propels the aircraft, guides it, senses the environment, and even renders it invisible when necessary

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/349/6254/1310

we have the first global flyer!

You can fly around the world in 90 minutes! Using electric propulsion!

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...13468604006462

http://lae.mit.edu/ehd/

To keep the aircraft moving requires 92 MW of power to generate hydrogen from water.
  #4  
Old August 22nd 16, 05:03 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science
Rick Jones[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 106
Default Paper published on producing arbitrarily long nanotubes.

In sci.space.policy Robert Clark wrote:
American Journal of Nanomaterials
Vol. 4, No. 2, 2016, pp 39-43. doi: 10.12691/ajn-4-2-2 | Research Article
From Nanoscale to Macroscale: Applications of Nanotechnology to Production
of Bulk Ultra-Strong Materials.
Robert Clark
Department of Mathematics, Widener University, Chester, United States
http://pubs.sciepub.com/ajn/4/2/2/index.html


Next stop: the space elevator.


There was an awful lot of "might" and "may" in that article. Nothing
that suggested anyone has gotten a sufficiently strong construct out
to say a meter or even 10cm.

rick jones
--
firebug n, the idiot who tosses a lit cigarette out his car window
these opinions are mine, all mine; HPE might not want them anyway...
feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hpe.com but NOT BOTH...
  #5  
Old August 24th 16, 04:23 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science
Robert Clark[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Paper published on producing arbitrarily long nanotubes.

Thanks for taking the time to read it. Right, these now are just proposals.
All of them though would be easy and low cost to test for nanotechnology
research labs. So considering the the billion dollar benefit in producing
structures a hundred times stronger than steel at 1/5th the weight, the
benefit to risk ratio is huge.
What goes into the risk calculation tough has to be consideration of the
likelihood they would work. For the simply tying the nanotubes proposal, as
I discussed in the article it has already been proven tying them together
can give lighter weight conducting wires than copper wires. And it is known
that tying ropes together can give ropes 80% to 90% the strength of the
component ropes.
For the laser irradiation proposal nanotubes were able to be combined by
illuminating the nanotube ends with a resulting strength close to the 300
Mpa(megapascals) tensile strength of the component nanotubes. It needs to be
tested though using nanotubes of the greatest measured strength at above 100
Gpa(gigapascals).

Bob Clark



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Rick Jones" wrote in message ...

In sci.space.policy Robert Clark wrote:
American Journal of Nanomaterials
Vol. 4, No. 2, 2016, pp 39-43. doi: 10.12691/ajn-4-2-2 | Research Article
From Nanoscale to Macroscale: Applications of Nanotechnology to Production
of Bulk Ultra-Strong Materials.
Robert Clark
Department of Mathematics, Widener University, Chester, United States
http://pubs.sciepub.com/ajn/4/2/2/index.html


Next stop: the space elevator.


There was an awful lot of "might" and "may" in that article. Nothing
that suggested anyone has gotten a sufficiently strong construct out
to say a meter or even 10cm.

rick jones
--
firebug n, the idiot who tosses a lit cigarette out his car window
these opinions are mine, all mine; HPE might not want them anyway...
feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hpe.com but NOT BOTH...

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

  #6  
Old August 24th 16, 05:00 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,018
Default Paper published on producing arbitrarily long nanotubes.

"Robert Clark" wrote:

Thanks for taking the time to read it. Right, these now are just proposals.
All of them though would be easy and low cost to test for nanotechnology
research labs.


Everything is always "easy and low cost" until someone has to actually
build something and make it work.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #7  
Old August 22nd 16, 06:19 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,346
Default Paper published on producing arbitrarily long nanotubes.

In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote:
American Journal of Nanomaterials
Vol. 4, No. 2, 2016, pp 39-43. doi: 10.12691/ajn-4-2-2 | Research Article
From Nanoscale to Macroscale: Applications of Nanotechnology to Production
of Bulk Ultra-Strong Materials.
Robert Clark
Department of Mathematics, Widener University, Chester, United States
http://pubs.sciepub.com/ajn/4/2/2/index.html

Next stop: the space elevator.


Nope, the next stop would be ANYTHING practical.

Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.


The lack of flying cars has never been a materials problem. There have
been lots of flying cars built.


--
Jim Pennino
  #8  
Old August 23rd 16, 11:15 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science
Jeff Findley[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,307
Default Paper published on producing arbitrarily long nanotubes.

In article ,
says...

In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote:
American Journal of Nanomaterials
Vol. 4, No. 2, 2016, pp 39-43. doi: 10.12691/ajn-4-2-2 | Research Article
From Nanoscale to Macroscale: Applications of Nanotechnology to Production
of Bulk Ultra-Strong Materials.
Robert Clark
Department of Mathematics, Widener University, Chester, United States
http://pubs.sciepub.com/ajn/4/2/2/index.html

Next stop: the space elevator.


Nope, the next stop would be ANYTHING practical.

Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.


The lack of flying cars has never been a materials problem. There have
been lots of flying cars built.


For one, they're super expensive. But, ignoring the expense for now...

The huge problem with flying cars in my mind is building one that's
simple for a "driver" to operate. The masses aren't going to all get a
pilot's license. Heck, most people on the road shouldn't even have a
driver's license based on how awful they drive and on how many wrecks
they cause. Imagine them all flying cars right into each other!

To make this work, you'd need self-flying cars!

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #9  
Old August 23rd 16, 05:03 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,346
Default Paper published on producing arbitrarily long nanotubes.

In sci.physics Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote:
American Journal of Nanomaterials
Vol. 4, No. 2, 2016, pp 39-43. doi: 10.12691/ajn-4-2-2 | Research Article
From Nanoscale to Macroscale: Applications of Nanotechnology to Production
of Bulk Ultra-Strong Materials.
Robert Clark
Department of Mathematics, Widener University, Chester, United States
http://pubs.sciepub.com/ajn/4/2/2/index.html

Next stop: the space elevator.


Nope, the next stop would be ANYTHING practical.

Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.


The lack of flying cars has never been a materials problem. There have
been lots of flying cars built.


For one, they're super expensive. But, ignoring the expense for now...

The huge problem with flying cars in my mind is building one that's
simple for a "driver" to operate. The masses aren't going to all get a
pilot's license. Heck, most people on the road shouldn't even have a
driver's license based on how awful they drive and on how many wrecks
they cause. Imagine them all flying cars right into each other!

To make this work, you'd need self-flying cars!

Jeff


Neither the FAA nor any other aviation authority on the planet is going
to allow non-pilots into the airspace system.

So there is the first problem, you will HAVE to be a pilot to fly a
flying car.

Fully autonomous aircraft are not going to happen any time soon.

Witness the current hoopla over drones to get a feel for the regulatory
temperment; you now have to register what amounts to model airplanes
with the FAA.

The sole reason that flying cars have never been a commercial success
is economics; you have to be a pilot, which isn't cheap, they cost
a LOT to build and certify to two sets of sometimes conflicting
regulations, and the market for such a thing is tiny.

Materials have never been an issue.


--
Jim Pennino
  #10  
Old August 23rd 16, 06:33 PM posted to sci.space.policy
William Mook[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,840
Default Paper published on producing arbitrarily long nanotubes.

On Wednesday, August 24, 2016 at 4:16:09 AM UTC+12, wrote:
In sci.physics Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote:
American Journal of Nanomaterials
Vol. 4, No. 2, 2016, pp 39-43. doi: 10.12691/ajn-4-2-2 | Research Article
From Nanoscale to Macroscale: Applications of Nanotechnology to Production
of Bulk Ultra-Strong Materials.
Robert Clark
Department of Mathematics, Widener University, Chester, United States
http://pubs.sciepub.com/ajn/4/2/2/index.html

Next stop: the space elevator.

Nope, the next stop would be ANYTHING practical.

Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.

The lack of flying cars has never been a materials problem. There have
been lots of flying cars built.


For one, they're super expensive. But, ignoring the expense for now...

The huge problem with flying cars in my mind is building one that's
simple for a "driver" to operate. The masses aren't going to all get a
pilot's license. Heck, most people on the road shouldn't even have a
driver's license based on how awful they drive and on how many wrecks
they cause. Imagine them all flying cars right into each other!

To make this work, you'd need self-flying cars!

Jeff


Neither the FAA nor any other aviation authority on the planet is going
to allow non-pilots into the airspace system.

So there is the first problem, you will HAVE to be a pilot to fly a
flying car.

Fully autonomous aircraft are not going to happen any time soon.

Witness the current hoopla over drones to get a feel for the regulatory
temperment; you now have to register what amounts to model airplanes
with the FAA.

The sole reason that flying cars have never been a commercial success
is economics; you have to be a pilot, which isn't cheap, they cost
a LOT to build and certify to two sets of sometimes conflicting
regulations, and the market for such a thing is tiny.

Materials have never been an issue.


--
Jim Pennino


How many ways can someone be wrong? lol.

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...one-operations

The FAA has approved 3000 commercial drone operators January this year, including Boeing's application for the Little Bird Drone!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=undX_rxY-dQ

Drones like autonomous cars are coming and they're here to stay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCAZWdqX_Y

Materials are an important factor in creating highly efficient aircraft and spacecraft.

http://aviationweek.com/CompositesGu...images-1282681


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
a long filament of magnetism in the sun's northern hemisphere erupted,producing a magnificent CME Sam Wormley[_2_] Amateur Astronomy 0 October 1st 13 03:41 AM
A way to make arbitrarily long nanotubes? Robert Clark Astronomy Misc 0 October 20th 07 03:24 PM
[fitsbits] HPX paper published Mark Calabretta FITS 0 October 11th 07 02:30 AM
NEW PAPER RELATED TO GPS AND VLBI PUBLISHED Sam Wormley Amateur Astronomy 0 August 17th 05 03:53 AM
Published Paper Probes Pulsar Pair Ron Astronomy Misc 0 April 28th 04 11:17 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.