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Why is absolute zero finite compared to maximum heat (which is seemingly infinite)?



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 10th 03, 04:52 PM
Mark Fergerson
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Default Why is absolute zero finite compared to maximum heat (which isseemingly infinite)?

Binary Object wrote:
Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat? Why is there a lower bound for cold?


Temperature =/= heat.

Mark L. Fergerson
  #12  
Old December 10th 03, 04:54 PM
Uncle Al
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Default Why is absolute zero finite compared to maximum heat (which isseemingly infinite)?

Binary Object wrote:

Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat? Why is there a lower bound for cold?


1) The maximum temp is set by the Planck mass. When mass-energy
density is sufficent to collapse space, that's it.

2) You can find all sorts of clever ways to overstuff a bag, but
once it is empty that's it.

--
Uncle Al
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(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
  #13  
Old December 10th 03, 07:25 PM
Paul Schlyter
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Default Why is absolute zero finite compared to maximum heat (which is seemingly infinite)?

In article ,
Binary Object wrote:

Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat?


Because there is a lower bound for speed (zero) but no upper bound
for speed. And the temperature is essentially the speed at which
each atom/molecule moves around inside the matter. Or, more
properly, the kinetic energy each atom/molecule has -- that's why, at
the same temperature, e.g. the molecules of hydrogen gas moves much
faster than the molecules of oxygen or nitrogen gas. But the
principle is the same: there is no upper bound, only a lower bound
(zero), for kinetic energy.

On the absolute temperature scale (degrees Kelvin), the lowest
possible temperature is zero degrees.


Why is there a lower bound for cold?


There isn't -- but there is an upper bound for cold, since it
cannot get colder than -460 F (= 0 K), can it?

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://www.stjarnhimlen.se/
http://home.tiscali.se/pausch/
  #14  
Old December 10th 03, 07:27 PM
Paul Schlyter
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Default Why is absolute zero finite compared to maximum heat (which is seemingly infinite)?

In article ,
Binary Object wrote:

Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat?


Because there is a lower bound for speed (zero) but no upper bound
for speed. And the temperature is essentially the speed at which
each atom/molecule moves around inside the matter. Or, more
properly, the kinetic energy each atom/molecule has -- that's why, at
the same temperature, e.g. the molecules of hydrogen gas moves much
faster than the molecules of oxygen or nitrogen gas. But the
principle is the same: there is no upper bound, only a lower bound
(zero), for kinetic energy.

On the absolute temperature scale (degrees Kelvin), the lowest
possible temperature is zero degrees.


Why is there a lower bound for cold?


There isn't -- but there is an upper bound for cold, since it
cannot get colder than -460 F (= 0 K), can it?

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://www.stjarnhimlen.se/
http://home.tiscali.se/pausch/
  #15  
Old December 10th 03, 10:14 PM
Gregory L. Hansen
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Default Why is absolute zero finite compared to maximum heat (which is seemingly infinite)?

In article ,
Binary Object wrote:
Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat? Why is there a lower bound for cold?


For the same reason that the kinetic energy of a particle can apparantly
increase without bound, but can't go lower than zero.


--
"Let us learn to dream, gentlemen, then perhaps we shall find the
truth... But let us beware of publishing our dreams before they have been
put to the proof by the waking understanding." -- Friedrich August Kekulé
  #16  
Old December 10th 03, 11:21 PM
OG
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Default Why is absolute zero finite compared to maximum heat (which is seemingly infinite)?


"Binary Object" wrote in message
om...
Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat? Why is there a lower bound for cold?


Temperature depends on the kinetic energy of the atoms and molecules in a
body.

As energy is added the temperature increases, and conversely as energy is
removed, the temperature drops.

There is a finite amount of kinetic energy available in a body that can be
extracted, so when all the energy has gone we reach absolute zero at which
(in theory), all atoms will be motionless.

That is why there is a lower bound for our temperature scale.




  #18  
Old December 11th 03, 07:23 PM
Henry Allen
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Default Why is absolute zero finite compared to maximum heat (which is seemingly infinite)?


Perhaps you should find out how temperature is defined?

Absolute zero is when the average velocity of particles
is zero.

Absolute zero is when the velocity of all particles is zero. The
average velocity of the particles that make me is zero relative to the
floor because I'm not moving Temperature is a measure of the
kinetic energy of a system of moving particles that has zero net
velocity...

The highest possible temperature is when the average
velocity of particles approaches the speed of light.

Temperature is a measure of energy not

The highest possible temperature is not limited by the speed of light-
it's limited by the amount of energy in the universe...because you can
always dump more energy into a moving particle even though it gets no
faster.

So I've always been puzzled that one of the limiting design parameters
of spacecraft is the amount of reaction mass avaliable-- since you can
make anything that has mass contain an infinite amount of energy one
electron accelerated fast enough and shot out of the talepipe should
bring you up to light speed regardless of the mass of your spacecraft.
Granted this approach has a few engineering problems...

Alternatively, you could turn the entire universe except
for one subatomic particle into energy, pour all that energy
into that particle, pretend that the notion of temperature is
still meaningful for a single particle, and work out a
maximum temperature from that.

Laura Halliday VE7LDH "Que les nuages soient notre
Grid: CN89mg pied a terre..."
ICBM: 49 16.05 N 122 56.92 W - Hospital/Shafte

  #19  
Old December 11th 03, 09:10 PM
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Default Why is absolute zero finite compared to maximum heat (which is seemingly infinite)?

In article , "Greg Neill" writes:
"Binary Object" wrote in message
. com...
Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat? Why is there a lower bound for cold?


Heat is a measure of energy content that results in motion
of particles, hence temperature.


That's inaccurate.

No energy, no heat, no
temperature. Can you have less motion than no motion?

Quantum mechanics says you can't ever completely eliminate
tiny jiggles of the constituent particles, so the temperature
of a collection of particles can never reach absolute zero.

And that's quite wrong. If a system is at its lowest possible state,
it is at zero temperature.

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
| chances are he is doing just the same"
 




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