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Moon Laws
Hi All
Got this email from a friend of mine: Hi all, I am working on a new lesson for my second graders focusing on Moon Laws. If YOU were given the task of creating a constitution, laws, bill of rights for people in a future lunar colony what would YOU include? I'd love to have your input! Thanks, My first thought is that doesn't the OST say or at least imply that the country that launches an object/probe/spacecraft is responsible for said object? And whatever rule of law applies to that country would apply to said object? Even if you would go with a privately funded moon colony. That company would be based on some nation on Earth, and whatever laws apply to that country would apply to the colony? What about an international colony, would it be the country that funds most of the colony? Or do international laws/treaties apply hear? What is the setup for ISS? Just my $0.02 Space Cadet derwetzelsDASHspacecadetATyahooDOTcom Moon Society - St. Louis Chapter http://www.moonsociety.org/chapters/stlouis/ The Moon Society is a non-profit educational and scientific foundation formed to further scientific study and development of the moon. |
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Moon Laws
"Space Cadet" wrote in message
ps.com... Hi All Got this email from a friend of mine: Hi all, I am working on a new lesson for my second graders focusing on Moon Laws. If YOU were given the task of creating a constitution, laws, bill of rights for people in a future lunar colony what would YOU include? I'd love to have your input! Thanks, My first thought is that doesn't the OST say or at least imply that the country that launches an object/probe/spacecraft is responsible for said object? And whatever rule of law applies to that country would apply to said object? Even if you would go with a privately funded moon colony. That company would be based on some nation on Earth, and whatever laws apply to that country would apply to the colony? Yes, but... that doesn't mean that the people living in the colony have to agree with the Earthlings who signed that treaty. They could just declare themselves soveriegn and say "*we* never signed the OST, so bugger off". Or, if they don't form an independent nation, there's still nothing to stop the originating nation from passing new space-specific laws different from those that operate in their territory on Earth. What about an international colony, would it be the country that funds most of the colony? Or do international laws/treaties apply hear? What is the setup for ISS? -l. ------------------------------------ My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy. |
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Moon Laws
On Oct 7, 11:40 am, "Logan Kearsley"
wrote: "Space Cadet" wrote in message ps.com... Hi All Got this email from a friend of mine: Hi all, I am working on a new lesson for my second graders focusing on Moon Laws. If YOU were given the task of creating a constitution, laws, bill of rights for people in a future lunar colony what would YOU include? I'd love to have your input! Thanks, My first thought is that doesn't the OST say or at least imply that the country that launches an object/probe/spacecraft is responsible for said object? And whatever rule of law applies to that country would apply to said object? Even if you would go with a privately funded moon colony. That company would be based on some nation on Earth, and whatever laws apply to that country would apply to the colony? Yes, but... that doesn't mean that the people living in the colony have to agree with the Earthlings who signed that treaty. They could just declare themselves soveriegn and say "*we* never signed the OST, so bugger off". Or, if they don't form an independent nation, there's still nothing to stop the originating nation from passing new space-specific laws different from those that operate in their territory on Earth. China and possily a small share dominated by India will most likely be in charge of that moon and of its L1. Get used to it. If we're lucky and being nice for a change, our NASA might get a tethered access (for a fee paid to China) to utilize the moon's L2. - Brad Guth - |
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Moon Laws
On Oct 7, 1:40 pm, "Logan Kearsley" wrote:
Yes, but... that doesn't mean that the people living in the colony have to agree with the Earthlings who signed that treaty. They could just declare themselves soveriegn and say "*we* never signed the OST, so bugger off". Or, if they don't form an independent nation, there's still nothing to stop the originating nation from passing new space-specific laws different from those that operate in their territory on Earth. -l. ------------------------------------ My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy. I'm guessing, who their Sovereignecy(sp) be reconized by anyone else? Since the formation of the UN, has there be a case of a former colony declaring itself independence? What mechanisms are in place at the UN to reconize a new country. The only new country that comes mind off the top of my head is Israel and there has been 'some' controversy over its formation ;^) I don't see any problem with Laws that are specific to life on a colony, like maybe an Air/Oxygen/life support tax, thou I could see a few that might become controversal back home, like for a Lunar colony to become more selfsufficent it might decide to legalize the growing of hemp for all its useful by products. Also maybe to increase tourism, some intrepid explorer(s) might discover that zero gee sex is overrated and Lunar gravity is where its at! ;^) Just my $0.02 Space Cadet derwetzelsDASHspacecadetATyahooDOTcom Moon Society - St. Louis Chapter http://www.moonsociety.org/chapters/stlouis/ The Moon Society is a non-profit educational and scientific foundation formed to further scientific study and development of the moon. |
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Moon Laws
"Space Cadet" wrote in message
ps.com... On Oct 7, 1:40 pm, "Logan Kearsley" wrote: Yes, but... that doesn't mean that the people living in the colony have to agree with the Earthlings who signed that treaty. They could just declare themselves soveriegn and say "*we* never signed the OST, so bugger off". Or, if they don't form an independent nation, there's still nothing to stop the originating nation from passing new space-specific laws different from those that operate in their territory on Earth. -l. ------------------------------------ My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy. I'm guessing, who their Sovereignecy(sp) be reconized by anyone else? Since the formation of the UN, has there be a case of a former colony declaring itself independence? What mechanisms are in place at the UN to reconize a new country. The only new country that comes mind off the top of my head is Israel and there has been 'some' controversy over its formation ;^) Why does it matter if the UN recognizes them? OK, sure, it might be a practical problem if they get reconquered, or if they need things from Earth and no one will supply them. But even then, they could be effectively independent for, oh, probably a week, at least. -l. ------------------------------------ My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy. |
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Moon Laws
Since the formation of the UN, has there be a case of a former
colony declaring itself independence? What mechanisms are in place at the UN to reconize a new country. The only new country that comes mind off the top of my head is Israel and there has been 'some' controversy over its formation ;^) Small world you have. Here is a few more from http://geography.about.com/od/lists/...endenceday.htm Most of these are former colonies. The Mandate of Palestine (which later became Israel and Jordan) wasn't strictly speaking "a colony", but something League of Nations put together after the collapse of Ottoman Empire. Btw, UN doesn't recognize countries. Individual member states do. But becoming member of UN you need both General Assembly and Security Council approval. August 15, 1945 - Korea, North August 15, 1945 - Korea, South August 17, 1945 - Indonesia Sept. 2, 1945 - Vietnam April 17, 1946 - Syria May 25, 1946 - Jordan August 14, 1947 - Pakistan August 15, 1947 - India January 4, 1948 - Burma February 4, 1948 - Sri Lanka May 14, 1948 - Israel July 19, 1949 - Laos August 8, 1949 - Bhutan December 24, 1951 - Libya November 9, 1953 - Cambodia January 1, 1956 - Sudan March 2, 1956 - Morocco March 20, 1956 - Tunisia March 6, 1957 - Ghana August 31, 1957 - Malaysia October 2, 1958 - Guinea January 1, 1960 - Cameroon April 4, 1960 - Senegal May 27, 1960 - Togo June 30, 1960 - Congo, Republic of the July 1, 1960 - Somalia July 26, 1960 - Madagascar August 1, 1960 - Benin August 3, 1960 - Niger August 5, 1960 - Burkina Faso August 7, 1960 - Cote d'Ivorie August 11, 1960 - Chad August 13, 1960 - Central African Republic August 15, 1960 - Congo, Dem. Rep. of the August 16, 1960 - Cyprus August 17, 1960 - Gabon Sept. 22, 1960 - Mali October 1, 1960 - Nigeria November 28, 1960 - Mauritania April 27, 1961 - Sierra Leone June 19, 1961 - Kuwait January 1, 1962 - Samoa July 1, 1962 - Burundi July 1, 1962 - Rwanda July 5, 1962 - Algeria August 6, 1962 - Jamaica August 31, 1962 - Trinidad and Tobago October 9, 1962 - Uganda December 12, 1963 - Kenya April 26, 1964 - Tanzania July 6, 1964 - Malawi Sept. 21, 1964 - Malta October 24, 1964 - Zambia February 18, 1965 - Gambia, The July 26, 1965 - Maldives August 9, 1965 - Singapore May 26, 1966 - Guyana September 30, 1966 - Botswana October 4, 1966 - Lesotho November 30, 1966 - Barbados January 31, 1968 - Nauru March 12, 1968 - Mauritius Sept. 6, 1968 - Swaziland October 12, 1968 - Equatorial June 4, 1970 - Tonga October 10, 1970 - Fiji March 26, 1971 - Bangladesh August 15, 1971 - Bahrain Sept. 3, 1971 - Qatar November 2, 1971 - United Arab Emirates July 10, 1973 - Bahamas Sept. 24, 1973 - Guinea-Bissau February 7, 1974 - Grenada June 25, 1975 - Mozambique July 5, 1975 - Cape Verde July 6, 1975 - Comoros July 12, 1975 - Sao Tome and Principe Sept. 16, 1975 - Papua New Guinea November 11, 1975 - Angola November 25, 1975 - Suriname June 29, 1976 - Seychelles June 27, 1977 - Djibouti July 7, 1978 - Solomon Islands October 1, 1978 - Tuvalu November 3, 1978 - Dominica February 22, 1979 - Saint Lucia July 12, 1979 - Kiribati October 27, 1979 - Saint Vincent and the Grenadines April 18, 1980 - Zimbabwe July 30, 1980 - Vanuatu January 11, 1981 - Antigua and Barbuda Sept. 21, 1981 - Belize Sept. 19, 1983 - Saint Kitts and Nevis January 1, 1984 - Brunei October 21, 1986 - Marshall Islands November 3, 1986 - Micronesia, Federated States of March 11, 1990 - Lithuania March 21, 1990 - Namibia May 22, 1990 - Yemen April 9, 1991 - Georgia June 25, 1991 - Croatia June 25, 1991 - Slovenia August 20, 1991 - Estonia August 21, 1991 - Kyrgyzstan August 24, 1991 - Russia August 25, 1991 - Belarus August 27, 1991 - Moldova August 30, 1991 - Azerbaijan Sept. 1, 1991 - Uzbekistan Sept. 6, 1991 - Latvia Sept. 8, 1991 - Macedonia Sept. 9, 1991 - Tajikistan Sept. 21, 1991 - Armenia October 27, 1991 - Turkmenistan November 24, 1991 - Ukraine December 16, 1991 - Kazakhstan March 3, 1992 - Bosnia and Herzegovina January 1, 1993 - Czech Republic January 1, 1993 - Slovakia May 24, 1993 - Eritrea October 1, 1994 - Palau May 20, 2002 - East Timor June 3, 2006 - Montenegro June 5, 2006 - Serbia |
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Moon Laws
On Oct 7, 2:40 pm, "Logan Kearsley" wrote:
"Space Cadet" wrote in message ps.com... Hi All Got this email from a friend of mine: Hi all, I am working on a new lesson for my second graders focusing on Moon Laws. If YOU were given the task of creating a constitution, laws, bill of rights for people in a future lunar colony what would YOU include? I'd love to have your input! Thanks, My first thought is that doesn't the OST say or at least imply that the country that launches an object/probe/spacecraft is responsible for said object? And whatever rule of law applies to that country would apply to said object? Even if you would go with a privately funded moon colony. That company would be based on some nation on Earth, and whatever laws apply to that country would apply to the colony? Yes, but... that doesn't mean that the people living in the colony have to agree with the Earthlings who signed that treaty. They could just declare themselves soveriegn and say "*we* never signed the OST, so bugger off". Well wait a minute most of the people living there will have been born on Earth,and be from one of the nations that signed the OST. So,its not quite that easy. And their children, even if born on the moon, will likely be claimed as citizens from the country their parents were born in. Sort of like kids born at military bases in other nations. Children from parents of two different nationalities, who lived on the moon their whole life,and having offspring - their kids might be able to make a claim like this - but you can bet the folks on Earth would have a thing or two to say about it. Especially if they paid for the infrastructure that kept them alive all those many decades. Or, if they don't form an independent nation, there's still nothing to stop the originating nation from passing new space-specific laws different from those that operate in their territory on Earth. Sure, just like Argentina can go out and claim the Falkand Islands from Britain. Britain wouldn't care about the 90 or so people living there would they? haha.. NOT What about an international colony, would it be the country that funds most of the colony? Or do international laws/treaties apply hear? What is the setup for ISS? -l. ------------------------------------ My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy. The whole thing is set up to deflect any possibility of private investment in space. This is something nations don't want to worry about. They would be far happier if the solar system was just a topic of research and not a new frontier for humanity - and the law reflects that. This approach sticks in the craw of all of those who want to leave the Earth and try something different out in interplanetary space. The simplest thing to do is figure out how to fund developments in space propulsion technology that provide fundamental improvements in cost benefit, and then figure out how to make a continuing profit in space. Once that's done, then the profits can be used to fund development. And once you have real development,then you can push for changes in the current OST given the changing situation in space that you've created. That's one approach. Building Nova class resuable launch vehicles that cut the cost of getting to space to about 3% today's cost will bring about the sort of changes you seek. This would allow the following infrastructures to be contemplated that could make a few bucks, that could be plowed back into space development; (1) many to many communication satellite network - global wireless internet (2) space hotel and space tourism (3) lunar hotel and lunar tourism (4) power satellites (5) lunar bank Iridium and Teledesic are both attempts at #1, they lacked the requisite launch capacity at the price they needed to make it work. But this is still a valid way to go. Space hotel and space tourismis getting started in small ways now - given the limitations of our launch infrastructure. Lunar hotel and lunar tourism need an improvement along the lines i've described to be workable. Low mass powersats that use solar pumped lasers, rather than microwaves might be possible with the same launchers that make lunar hotels possible. Once a permanent base of any sort - even a hotel - is on the moon,a lunar bank is possible. None of this requires changing the OST. Since the OST recognizes the ownership of improvements. And that gives the owners easement on the underlying property their improvements are built upon. The lunar bank is something that's a little more clever. Nations cannot built bases on celestial bodies or have military personnel operating a base in space. Nations basically have no rights in space. So, the easement that a hotel operator has on his property on the moon, because he has rights to the improvements he erected, gives him pretty much absolute authority to run that hotel or other asset as he sees fit - providing he doesn't violate the rules spelled out in the OST. He's sort of like a ship flying the flag of a country of his choosing navigating international waters. Except the ship never comes back to home port. And many of the laws of the sea that constrain a ship in international waters - do not apply. So, the hotel operator could offer a wide range of services and products, that might be illegal to offer in his home country,or any home country. The most profitable of these would be banking services. The most valued would be a place for former dictators and so forth to retire to. With global communications satellites and reliable digital signalling to a banking computer on the moon, a lunar bank could provide a wide range of banking and insurance services from virtual branches in the global wireless broadband service - and basically create a micro- banking version of the major international banks that operate in tax havens throughout the world. In this way trillions of dollars could be deposited in the lunar bank and the availability of liquid assets would provide a great deal of stability out of all proportion to the size of the lunar colony or its population. Fewer than 7 million people live in Switzerland but that nation by virtue of its banking laws and status as a tax haven hold the majority of the assets of 7 billion. A lunar bank could be set up with little more than a grounded solar powered communication satellite with perhaps an inflatable hut nearby - which would grow in power and prestige as time went on and the hut grew to a collection of outbuildings and a town a village and ultimately a great metropolis. This could all be done without mining the moon or violating the treaty in any way. Just as the fellow who was not permitted to leave the Paris Airport was a man without a country because he didn't want to return to his native land, so too, could people who renounce their birth citizen ship and do not seek to be citizens of any other nation, could live in limbo at the colony - and be the first lunar citizens. Like the first settlers at Botany Bay they may be the most successful and notorious criminals of the age, but their offspring will be the citizens of a new off-world Republic of the Moon. And they will definitely have claim that they didn't sign the OST in the middle fo the 20th century. |
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Moon Laws
wrote in message
ups.com... On Oct 7, 2:40 pm, "Logan Kearsley" wrote: "Space Cadet" wrote in message ps.com... Hi All Got this email from a friend of mine: Hi all, I am working on a new lesson for my second graders focusing on Moon Laws. If YOU were given the task of creating a constitution, laws, bill of rights for people in a future lunar colony what would YOU include? I'd love to have your input! Thanks, My first thought is that doesn't the OST say or at least imply that the country that launches an object/probe/spacecraft is responsible for said object? And whatever rule of law applies to that country would apply to said object? Even if you would go with a privately funded moon colony. That company would be based on some nation on Earth, and whatever laws apply to that country would apply to the colony? Yes, but... that doesn't mean that the people living in the colony have to agree with the Earthlings who signed that treaty. They could just declare themselves soveriegn and say "*we* never signed the OST, so bugger off". Well wait a minute most of the people living there will have been born on Earth,and be from one of the nations that signed the OST. So,its Yes. So? Most of them probably wouldn't *want* to declare independence; there are lots of very good practical reasons *not* to. But there's nothing to stop them from doing so if they *did* want to. There's nothing magical or more special about nations than any other group of people that causes them to exist on their own or by Authoritative Permission of someone else. not quite that easy. And their children, even if born on the moon, will likely be claimed as citizens from the country their parents were born in. Sort of like kids born at military bases in other nations. Why should they care if some other nation considers them to be citizens? It just means they get double citizenship for free. Children from parents of two different nationalities, who lived on the moon their whole life,and having offspring - their kids might be able to make a claim like this - but you can bet the folks on Earth would have a thing or two to say about it. Especially if they paid for the infrastructure that kept them alive all those many decades. Or, if they don't form an independent nation, there's still nothing to stop the originating nation from passing new space-specific laws different from those that operate in their territory on Earth. Sure, just like Argentina can go out and claim the Falkand Islands from Britain. Britain wouldn't care about the 90 or so people living there would they? haha.. NOT You seem to be responding to the wrong part of my post there. It would be more like England saying that people in the New World colonies have to pay some extra taxes that those in England itself do not. Except we're talking about much more than just tax law here. You might make that analogy in the case of the colony declaring itself independent. And indeed, you will see that I later said: OK, sure, it might be a practical problem if they get reconquered, or if they need things from Earth and no one will supply them. But even then, they could be effectively independent for, oh, probably a week, at least. There's nothing to stop them from doing the claiming and making their own laws. And the reconquering would be rather more expensive than war in the Falklands, unless you have the option to just starve them out. -l. ------------------------------------ My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy. |
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Moon Laws
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 17:47:58 -0600, "Logan Kearsley"
wrote: wrote in message oups.com... On Oct 7, 2:40 pm, "Logan Kearsley" wrote: "Space Cadet" wrote in message ps.com... Hi All Got this email from a friend of mine: Hi all, I am working on a new lesson for my second graders focusing on Moon Laws. If YOU were given the task of creating a constitution, laws, bill of rights for people in a future lunar colony what would YOU include? I'd love to have your input! Thanks, My first thought is that doesn't the OST say or at least imply that the country that launches an object/probe/spacecraft is responsible for said object? And whatever rule of law applies to that country would apply to said object? Even if you would go with a privately funded moon colony. That company would be based on some nation on Earth, and whatever laws apply to that country would apply to the colony? Yes, but... that doesn't mean that the people living in the colony have to agree with the Earthlings who signed that treaty. They could just declare themselves soveriegn and say "*we* never signed the OST, so bugger off". Well wait a minute most of the people living there will have been born on Earth,and be from one of the nations that signed the OST. So,its Yes. So? Most of them probably wouldn't *want* to declare independence; there are lots of very good practical reasons *not* to. But there's nothing to stop them from doing so if they *did* want to. All the things that stop most terrestrial separatist groups from declaring independence and forming their own nations, would still apply. You will note that most separatist groups do *not* in fact declare independence, and when one does it's a fairly traumatic process with a high failure rate. And it's not just a matter of brute force being used to squash the separatists, either. Building a nation, or nation-substitute, is hard even when nobody is opposing you. There's nothing magical or more special about nations than any other group of people that causes them to exist on their own or by Authoritative Permission of someone else. However, nations that *do* exist, tend to be pretty good about continuing to exist. Part of that is not just politely waving bye-bye when a bunch of separatists decide to lop off a chunk of the nation's territory. Heck, an even bigger part is arranging things so that the separatists are never a local majority and/or never manage to make the case for independence. not quite that easy. And their children, even if born on the moon, will likely be claimed as citizens from the country their parents were born in. Sort of like kids born at military bases in other nations. Why should they care if some other nation considers them to be citizens? It just means they get double citizenship for free. Citizenship, free? Citizenship means having to pay taxes. And comes with other obligations like obeying laws and serving on juries or even in armies. Being so obligated to two nations, is more expensive than one, even if both governments are being nice and cooperative about it. If they're *not* being cooperative, dual citizenship can be an enormous hassle. For example, and not hypothetical, you can be required to spend the years between age 18 and 20 serving in the armies of two different nations. Pick one, and for the rest of your life risk prison if you ever set foot in a country that has an extradition treaty with the other. -- *John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, * *Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" * *Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition * *White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute * * for success" * *661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition * |
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Moon Laws
"John Schilling" wrote in message
... On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 17:47:58 -0600, "Logan Kearsley" wrote: wrote in message roups.com... On Oct 7, 2:40 pm, "Logan Kearsley" wrote: "Space Cadet" wrote in message ps.com... Hi All Got this email from a friend of mine: Hi all, I am working on a new lesson for my second graders focusing on Moon Laws. If YOU were given the task of creating a constitution, laws, bill of rights for people in a future lunar colony what would YOU include? I'd love to have your input! Thanks, My first thought is that doesn't the OST say or at least imply that the country that launches an object/probe/spacecraft is responsible for said object? And whatever rule of law applies to that country would apply to said object? Even if you would go with a privately funded moon colony. That company would be based on some nation on Earth, and whatever laws apply to that country would apply to the colony? Yes, but... that doesn't mean that the people living in the colony have to agree with the Earthlings who signed that treaty. They could just declare themselves soveriegn and say "*we* never signed the OST, so bugger off". Well wait a minute most of the people living there will have been born on Earth,and be from one of the nations that signed the OST. So,its Yes. So? Most of them probably wouldn't *want* to declare independence; there are lots of very good practical reasons *not* to. But there's nothing to stop them from doing so if they *did* want to. All the things that stop most terrestrial separatist groups from declaring independence and forming their own nations, would still apply. You will Never said otherwise. note that most separatist groups do *not* in fact declare independence, and when one does it's a fairly traumatic process with a high failure rate. And it's not just a matter of brute force being used to squash the separatists, either. Building a nation, or nation-substitute, is hard even when nobody is opposing you. And yet we do know that it is in fact possible to declare independence and establish a new nation, even though it doesn't happen very often, because every once in a while those separatist groups *do* in fact declare independence, and sometimes they even succeed. That won't change just because you're on the Moon. I have never claimed anything stronger than that. -l. ------------------------------------ My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy. |
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