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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?



 
 
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  #291  
Old October 12th 18, 06:34 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 12:15:20 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 4:45:45 PM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote:

Your argument depends upon what YOU assume "their" goal is. What do you
THINK would happen to a civilization (or an individual) if all their
problems were taken care of for them?


"Any man who thinks he can be happy andÂ*prosperous by letting the
government take care of him had better take a closer look at
the American Indian." -- Anon.


This may be a good point, but I'm not making assumptions about their _goal_.
Rather, since individual human beings have rights, and no natural creature is
fundamentally superior to a human being in the way that human beings are
superior to beasts by virtue of having a bit more technology or being a bit
smarter, the ordinary obligations of being a witness to an emergency where one
has the power to intervene without risk to oneself apply.


Sure, that's OUR responsibility.

For little things, non-interference to permit a culture to develop normally
may be reasonable.

The Holocaust was not a little thing.


So why did God allow it? This is an old, old argument. "Why do bad things
happen to good people?" The Book of Job is a case in point.

In general, though, although I am in disagreement with you, I have not been
inclined to argue the point. It seems to me that for some reason, you want
the Universe to be so organized as to demand a certain kind of thinking from
people - and you have just seized on advanced aliens, instead of the
traditional God of the Christian religion, as a means to the same goal.


I have stated my aim more than once so I it's amazing why it's not understood.

Thus, your position appears to me to be based on so many, and such profound,
false assumptions that meaningful discussion is almost impossible.

John Savard


YOU seem to be the one making assumptions. You assume that "the traditional
God of Christianity" MUST be "supernatural" for one. I am merely proposing
that He might be using natural laws that we haven't learned yet, so then
"supernatural" is essentially an oxymoron. As Clarke observed:

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
-- Arthur C. Clarke

Once you get your mind around THAT concept, it's not such a big leap to
thinking about an advanced civilization as God. So your prejudices govern
what you believe about God. If you believe that God MUST operate by methods
forever unexplainable by man, then my position may be repugnant to you.
OTOH, if you believe everything including "miracles" CAN be explained by
science, or at least some future science, then you imply that God is part
of the universe (or at least not outside it, somehow) or you must claim that
some experiences are reported by loony people (which is what atheists do).
  #292  
Old October 13th 18, 12:11 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 11:34:29 AM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote:

Once you get your mind around THAT concept, it's not such a big leap to
thinking about an advanced civilization as God. So your prejudices govern
what you believe about God. If you believe that God MUST operate by methods
forever unexplainable by man, then my position may be repugnant to you.
OTOH, if you believe everything including "miracles" CAN be explained by
science, or at least some future science, then you imply that God is part
of the universe (or at least not outside it, somehow) or you must claim that
some experiences are reported by loony people (which is what atheists do).


Since loony people exist, and human beings have also been known to tell lies
(and the ability to control and manipulate other people is a motivating factor
for prevarication), I think the position that the existence of advanced aliens
who *could* have, a la Erich von Danniken, faked parts of the Old Testament does
not constitute proof that the things in the Old Testament really happened... is
highly reasonable.

Plus, there are other religions than Christianity. That has a whole other level
of implications.

Also: if advanced aliens are not intervening in human history out of a high
level of responsibility of some kind... then why are they starting religions
which promote sexism and xenophobia? That would seem irresponsible.

John Savard
  #293  
Old October 13th 18, 03:41 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 12:43:36 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 11:01:39 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 7:05:30 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote:

I'm not saying it cannot have happened. I'm merely objecting when you
claim we can be certain it has happened. We can **not** be certain
about that! There are just too many unknowns involved...


I haven't said it's certain. I believe I used the term "virtually certain"
once or twice, which isn't the same thing


A minor difference.


Not at all. When we deal with possibilities where VERY large numbers are
involved, it is ridiculous to claim certainty but not at all ridiculous
to claim virtual certainty.

You admit that in principle it might not have happened but you believe
the probability for that is negligibly low.


Yep.

And if you agree that it could have happened before then we are in
agreement. That's enough to place a stumbling block in front of the
dedicated atheist.


Advanced civilizations and supernatural gods are two very different
things.


I don't believe in the "supernatural." Do you?

An advanced civilization has reached farther, perhaps
immensely farther, than we but still came into existence through
natural processes and must obey natural laws. A supernatural God, as
proclaimed in the monotheistic religions Judaism, Christianity and
Islam, created the entire universe and also created the natural laws
within it. Quite a big difference. An atheist merely does not believe
in that supernatural God but has no problem with the existence of
advanced civilizations.


I don't believe anything that happens is "supernatural."

At the moment we aren't, that's true. But what about our descendants
in a million years?


IF we're given the time. Taking Chris's argument, maybe we'll destroy
ourselves :-) I don't think we will, though, because we're being
watched over.


Then why did WWI and WWII happen? Why did the holocaust happen? Why
did the Armenian genocide happen? And why were atomic bombs dropped
over Japan in August 1945? Did those watching over us turn away when
those things happened, or what?


Because free will is more important than death. Intervention may be necessary
IF total destruction is likely, but wars in general don't qualify. You WILL
note that a nuclear exchange with the USSR was avoided when many thought it
would happen.
  #294  
Old October 13th 18, 04:33 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 5:11:58 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 11:34:29 AM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote:

Once you get your mind around THAT concept, it's not such a big leap to
thinking about an advanced civilization as God. So your prejudices govern
what you believe about God. If you believe that God MUST operate by methods
forever unexplainable by man, then my position may be repugnant to you.
OTOH, if you believe everything including "miracles" CAN be explained by
science, or at least some future science, then you imply that God is part
of the universe (or at least not outside it, somehow) or you must claim that
some experiences are reported by loony people (which is what atheists do).


Since loony people exist, and human beings have also been known to tell lies
(and the ability to control and manipulate other people is a motivating factor
for prevarication), I think the position that the existence of advanced aliens
who *could* have, a la Erich von Danniken, faked parts of the Old Testament
does not constitute proof that the things in the Old Testament really
happened... is highly reasonable.


This doesn't seem to me to be a response to my argument.

Plus, there are other religions than Christianity. That has a whole other
level of implications.

Also: if advanced aliens are not intervening in human history out of a high
level of responsibility of some kind... then why are they starting religions
which promote sexism and xenophobia? That would seem irresponsible.

John Savard


People have free will. THEY are the ones that set up religions. Loony,
remember?

  #295  
Old October 13th 18, 07:09 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

It is remarkable, albeit in the worst parts of human nature that it is possible, to see the empirical ideology of extermination and invasion get away completely free from its application in history -

” A lopsided education has helped to encourage that illusion. Man must realize that a fundamental law of necessity reigns throughout the whole realm of Nature and that his existence is subject to the law of eternal struggle and strife. He will then feel that there cannot be a separate law for mankind in a world in which planets and suns follow their orbits, where moons and planets trace their destined paths, where the strong are always the masters of the weak and where those subject to such laws must obey them or be destroyed.” Hitler and National Socialism

This was the Darwin/Wallace notion taken to its logical conclusion and waiting for someone with an aggressive streak to pin their convictions on, after the destruction they simply whitewashed the empirical breeding notion out and carried on as if it had no input into the death of so many millions of people.

A person is not meant to dwell on these things but neither can they be ignored for the mass appeal of empirical convictions has returned to influence politics once more.



  #296  
Old October 13th 18, 08:30 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Paul Schlyter[_3_]
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Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 20:33:37 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:
People have free will. THEY are the ones that set up religions.


Good that you finally admit that religions are fantasies created by
primitive people. But don't forget this the next time you want to
quote from the Bible.
  #297  
Old October 13th 18, 08:41 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Paul Schlyter[_3_]
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Posts: 1,344
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:41:23 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:
On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 12:43:36 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter

wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 11:01:39 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 7:05:30 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter

wrote:

I'm not saying it cannot have happened. I'm merely objecting

when you
claim we can be certain it has happened. We can **not** be

certain
about that! There are just too many unknowns involved...

I haven't said it's certain. I believe I used the term

"virtually certain"
once or twice, which isn't the same thing


A minor difference.


Not at all. When we deal with possibilities where VERY large

numbers are
involved, it is ridiculous to claim certainty but not at all

ridiculous
to claim virtual certainty.


You admit that in principle it might not have happened but you

believe
the probability for that is negligibly low.


Yep.


So you claim that a negligible small difference is more than a minor
difference. Which means you are contradicting yourself.


And if you agree that it could have happened before then we are

in
agreement. That's enough to place a stumbling block in front

of the
dedicated atheist.


Advanced civilizations and supernatural gods are two very

different
things.


I don't believe in the "supernatural." Do you?


Which means you don't believe in the Bible, a book full of references
to the supernatural...


An advanced civilization has reached farther, perhaps
immensely farther, than we but still came into existence through
natural processes and must obey natural laws. A supernatural God,

as
proclaimed in the monotheistic religions Judaism, Christianity

and
Islam, created the entire universe and also created the natural

laws
within it. Quite a big difference. An atheist merely does not

believe
in that supernatural God but has no problem with the existence of
advanced civilizations.


I don't believe anything that happens is "supernatural."


Which means you believe that the supernatural events described in the
Bible never happened. Right?


At the moment we aren't, that's true. But what about our

descendants
in a million years?


IF we're given the time. Taking Chris's argument, maybe we'll

destroy
ourselves :-) I don't think we will, though, because we're

being
watched over.


Then why did WWI and WWII happen? Why did the holocaust happen?

Why
did the Armenian genocide happen? And why were atomic bombs

dropped
over Japan in August 1945? Did those watching over us turn away

when
those things happened, or what?


Because free will is more important than death. Intervention may

be necessary
IF total destruction is likely, but wars in general don't qualify.

You WILL
note that a nuclear exchange with the USSR was avoided when many

thought it
would happen.


Did that happen because Nikita Chrustchev listened to God and removed
his missiles from Cuba in 1962? evil grin
  #298  
Old October 13th 18, 11:14 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

Astronomers and the renowned Christians share a common language that connects the individual to the Universal or, in spiritual language, a person to God. It looks exuberant to those who haven't yet encountered the experience so they tend to mock what they haven't felt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canticle_of_the_Sun

Behind all the many traditions in the Bible, some saying opposite things to each other including the writing before and after Christ, is this spiritual language that peels away from the human traditions and poetic language that causes doubt and fear.

The network of connections between a moving Earth and the changes in the year and the seasons then comes to the fore and delights the person in their walks or in those moments when the daily and weekly business is done.Such is spirituality and physical nature.

  #299  
Old October 13th 18, 01:28 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 1:30:27 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 20:33:37 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

People have free will. THEY are the ones that set up religions.


Good that you finally admit that religions are fantasies created by
primitive people. But don't forget this the next time you want to
quote from the Bible.


I didn't say ALL religions were fantasies, and I didn't say most were
created by primitive people, either. Denying that a religion set up by
an individual (or group thereof) is efficacious is the real fantasy :-)

You admit that in principle it might not have happened but you believe
the probability for that is negligibly low.


Yep.


So you claim that a negligible small difference is more than a minor
difference. Which means you are contradicting yourself.


I overlooked the "negligibly" and took it as "very" so I retract my "yep."

Advanced civilizations and supernatural gods are two very different
things.


I don't believe in the "supernatural." Do you?


Which means you don't believe in the Bible, a book full of references
to the supernatural...


Only in YOUR opinion. The word "supernatural" does not appear in the Bible.

Then why did WWI and WWII happen? Why did the holocaust happen? Why
did the Armenian genocide happen? And why were atomic bombs dropped
over Japan in August 1945? Did those watching over us turn away when
those things happened, or what?


Because free will is more important than death. Intervention may be
necessary IF total destruction is likely, but wars in general don't
qualify. You WILL note that a nuclear exchange with the USSR was avoided
when many thought it would happen.


Did that happen because Nikita Chrustchev listened to God and removed his
missiles from Cuba in 1962? evil grin


No, but JFK may have listened to Him. I believe that a large fraction of
humanity has received and receives inspiration, likely unbeknownst to
themselves.

I don't believe anything that happens is "supernatural."


Which means you believe that the supernatural events described in the Bible
never happened. Right?


Wrong. Just because we don't understand how it was done doesn't make it "supernatural."
  #300  
Old October 13th 18, 04:54 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

Next year will be 50 years since the Apollo mission which landed a person on the moon and yet none of you feel what has become of that innovative organisation or rather what happened as theorists eventually overtook it.

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170319.html

Primitive people ! - if this is what space exploration has accomplished then it would have been better not to have ventured there at all.

There will always be people prepared to lean on old ways that were never creative/productive in the first place so it is with hope that the generation I lived through after the Apollo mission innovators will eventually come to their senses and work with imaging rather than manipulate them, if not then hopefully the younger generations will.





 




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