Department Store Telescopes Are Great!

On Sunday, March 20, 2016 at 1:55:22 PM UTC-6, Mike Collins wrote:

Theodora Sturgeon's comment

He would, of course, have found that a rather painful slip of the keyboard.

John Savard

Quadibloc wrote:
On Sunday, March 20, 2016 at 1:55:22 PM UTC-6, Mike Collins wrote:

Theodora Sturgeon's comment

He would, of course, have found that a rather painful slip of the keyboard.

John Savard


True but 90% of my typing is crud.

On 03/13/2016 09:55 AM, wrote:
They provide a cheap and accessible way for a newbie to gauge his or her interest in amateur astronomy!

(This is not a troll.)


I can't say my first experience had such a positive outcome. When I was
about 8 years old, I received a "focal" refractor for Christmas. I don't
remember what size it was, but it was attached to a mini tripod. My
father and I rode out into the country to try and look at Saturn with
it. Not only could we never find Saturn, but nothing else either. My
thinking, in retrospect, was that the reason was probably because it was
advertised as like a "300x telescope" and the FOV not only horribly
small, but the cheap plastic would have never allowed us to see
anything. Needless to say, because my dad had kept the receipt, he
packed up the scope and returned it. I never touched optics again until
like age 12.

This time, "Focal" brand again, but a pair of 20x60 binoculars that I
spotted in K-mart. Got them for Christmas that year and the difference
was like night and day (in fact, I still have them and occasionally use
them). Achromat lenses, but I got a lot of joy out of them until I was a
freshman in high school and ordered my first serious instrument with my
Summer job money, a Coulter Odyssey 10.1" Dob. It took 7 months to
arrive, so came the following Spring and just before Summer break from
school. I got tremendous joy out of using that scope all throughout high
school, star hopping from DSO to DSO and taking on ever more challenging
DSO observing. Luckily, my skies were the equivalent of a yellow zone
then, so I was able to observe quite a lot. In the years that followed,
it has become increasingly yellow-red and now red.

I sold the Dob sometime in the 90's and never got back into astronomy
until 2003 for the Mars opposition. I was more or less involved until
2010 or so when I started having difficulty reselling my equipment for a
price similar to what I paid. Up until that point, I had no problems
reselling for 85% or better of what I paid. Showed me that the economy
hasn't been all that good for the last few years, so I have abandoned
acquiring any further equipment for now until/ if economics improve once
again.

So, department store didn't work for me for scopes, but it did binoculars.

On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 at 12:12:13 PM UTC-4, Bill Baxter wrote:
On 03/13/2016 09:55 AM, wsnell01 wrote:
They provide a cheap and accessible way for a newbie to gauge his or her interest in amateur astronomy!

(This is not a troll.)


I can't say my first experience had such a positive outcome. When I was
about 8 years old, I received a "focal" refractor for Christmas. I don't
remember what size it was, but it was attached to a mini tripod. My
father and I rode out into the country to try and look at Saturn with
it. Not only could we never find Saturn, but nothing else either. My
thinking, in retrospect, was that the reason was probably because it was
advertised as like a "300x telescope" and the FOV not only horribly
small, but the cheap plastic would have never allowed us to see
anything. Needless to say, because my dad had kept the receipt, he
packed up the scope and returned it. I never touched optics again until
like age 12.

This time, "Focal" brand again, but a pair of 20x60 binoculars that I
spotted in K-mart. Got them for Christmas that year and the difference
was like night and day (in fact, I still have them and occasionally use
them). Achromat lenses, but I got a lot of joy out of them until I was a
freshman in high school and ordered my first serious instrument with my
Summer job money, a Coulter Odyssey 10.1" Dob. It took 7 months to
arrive, so came the following Spring and just before Summer break from
school. I got tremendous joy out of using that scope all throughout high
school, star hopping from DSO to DSO and taking on ever more challenging
DSO observing. Luckily, my skies were the equivalent of a yellow zone
then, so I was able to observe quite a lot. In the years that followed,
it has become increasingly yellow-red and now red.

I sold the Dob sometime in the 90's and never got back into astronomy
until 2003 for the Mars opposition. I was more or less involved until
2010 or so when I started having difficulty reselling my equipment for a
price similar to what I paid. Up until that point, I had no problems
reselling for 85% or better of what I paid. Showed me that the economy
hasn't been all that good for the last few years, so I have abandoned
acquiring any further equipment for now until/ if economics improve once
again.

So, department store didn't work for me for scopes, but it did binoculars..


Since you can't provide any details about your first telescope other than that it was on a "mini-tripod" and provided "300x," it is hard to evaluate the actual usefulness of it. It isn't necessary to drive out to the country to see Saturn, BTW. Did either of you know how to identify Saturn? Did you practice with the scope on the Moon or the landscape? Your father, rather than you, returned the telescope for a REFUND, perhaps too soon?

Was buying this telescope for astronomy your idea or your parents'? Either way, it was a first step for you.

Apparently, your interest was always there since you kept trying with ever more reliable instruments. You even chose to spend a hard-earned sum of money on a telescope, rather than on some other hobby or necessity.

OTOH, you SOLD a perfectly usable telescope, for which you had worked so hard, had waited so long, had used with so much success and then you DROPPED OUT of the hobby for a decade. (!?)

You expect to RECOUP "85%" of purchase cost after you have grown tired of a telescope and you now seem reluctant to buy a scope just because you think the RESALE VALUE will be poor.

Your motivations seem to be more heavily related to money rather than astronomy.

Perhaps you are a yuppie? grin

On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 12:12:10 -0400, Bill Baxter
wrote:

I can't say my first experience had such a positive outcome. When I was
about 8 years old, I received a "focal" refractor for Christmas. I don't
remember what size it was, but it was attached to a mini tripod. My
father and I rode out into the country to try and look at Saturn with
it. Not only could we never find Saturn, but nothing else either. My
thinking, in retrospect, was that the reason was probably because it was
advertised as like a "300x telescope" and the FOV not only horribly
small, but the cheap plastic would have never allowed us to see
anything. Needless to say, because my dad had kept the receipt, he
packed up the scope and returned it. I never touched optics again until
like age 12.

That's pretty similar to my own experience. I got a Tasco refractor,
probably around 2.5 inches on an altaz tripod. I saw Saturn well
enough, and spent a little time on the Moon, but it was pretty useless
for anything else. The lowest magnification was too high, and the
tripod was too shaky. Gave up on it after a few months and didn't
revisit visual astronomy again until my teens, when I got a 6" Newt
that had been damaged in a fire and which I rebuilt. I used that scope
for a long time.

On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 10:31:07 AM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 12:12:10 -0400, Bill Baxter
wrote:

I can't say my first experience had such a positive outcome. When I was
about 8 years old, I received a "focal" refractor for Christmas. I don't
remember what size it was, but it was attached to a mini tripod. My
father and I rode out into the country to try and look at Saturn with
it. Not only could we never find Saturn, but nothing else either. My
thinking, in retrospect, was that the reason was probably because it was
advertised as like a "300x telescope" and the FOV not only horribly
small, but the cheap plastic would have never allowed us to see
anything. Needless to say, because my dad had kept the receipt, he
packed up the scope and returned it. I never touched optics again until
like age 12.

That's pretty similar to my own experience. I got a Tasco refractor,
probably around 2.5 inches on an altaz tripod. I saw Saturn well
enough, and spent a little time on the Moon, but it was pretty useless
for anything else. The lowest magnification was too high, and the
tripod was too shaky. Gave up on it after a few months and didn't
revisit visual astronomy again until my teens, when I got a 6" Newt
that had been damaged in a fire and which I rebuilt. I used that scope
for a long time.

Then you would have to agree that telescopes sold by department stores (your altaz Tasco, for example) are great! Any problems with your Tasco were largely due to pilot error, user ignorance or lack of interest. Do not argue with that.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:53:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

That's pretty similar to my own experience. I got a Tasco refractor,
probably around 2.5 inches on an altaz tripod. I saw Saturn well
enough, and spent a little time on the Moon, but it was pretty useless
for anything else. The lowest magnification was too high, and the
tripod was too shaky. Gave up on it after a few months and didn't
revisit visual astronomy again until my teens, when I got a 6" Newt
that had been damaged in a fire and which I rebuilt. I used that scope
for a long time.

Then you would have to agree that telescopes sold by department stores (your altaz Tasco, for example) are great! Any problems with your Tasco were largely due to pilot error, user ignorance or lack of interest. Do not argue with that.

No. The telescope was not useful because it was poorly designed. It
did not work well enough to keep me interested in observational
astronomy.

It did more harm than good.

On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 1:27:41 PM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:53:35 -0700 (PDT), wsnell01 wrote:
peterson, who can't edit properly, wrote:

That's pretty similar to my own experience. I got a Tasco refractor,
probably around 2.5 inches on an altaz tripod. I saw Saturn well
enough, and spent a little time on the Moon, but it was pretty useless
for anything else. The lowest magnification was too high, and the
tripod was too shaky. Gave up on it after a few months and didn't
revisit visual astronomy again until my teens, when I got a 6" Newt
that had been damaged in a fire and which I rebuilt. I used that scope
for a long time.

Then you would have to agree that telescopes sold by department stores (your altaz Tasco, for example) are great! Any problems with your Tasco were largely due to pilot error, user ignorance or lack of interest. Do not argue with that.

No. The telescope was not useful because it was poorly designed.

No, it wasn't poorly designed. It just wasn't designed well enough for a spoiled brat.

It
did not work well enough to keep me interested in observational
astronomy.

That's YOUR problem. Most any amateur astronomer living prior to the 20th century and even quite a few of the world's poor today, would have killed (figuratively speaking) to own that telescope.

It did more harm than good.

You say that, yet you became quite re-interested when a salvageable astro telescope fell into your lap a few years later.

My early scopes weren't perfect either, but -I- stuck with it, improved them and then designed and built a six-inch from SCRATCH.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:14:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 1:27:41 PM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:53:35 -0700 (PDT), wsnell01 wrote:
peterson, who can't edit properly, wrote:

That's pretty similar to my own experience. I got a Tasco refractor,
probably around 2.5 inches on an altaz tripod. I saw Saturn well
enough, and spent a little time on the Moon, but it was pretty useless
for anything else. The lowest magnification was too high, and the
tripod was too shaky. Gave up on it after a few months and didn't
revisit visual astronomy again until my teens, when I got a 6" Newt
that had been damaged in a fire and which I rebuilt. I used that scope
for a long time.

Then you would have to agree that telescopes sold by department stores (your altaz Tasco, for example) are great! Any problems with your Tasco were largely due to pilot error, user ignorance or lack of interest. Do not argue with that.

No. The telescope was not useful because it was poorly designed.

No, it wasn't poorly designed. It just wasn't designed well enough for a spoiled brat.

Very few kids would have the patience to try and make a shaky,
over-magnified telescope work. I have little doubt that such products
have turned vastly more people away from astronomy than they ever
created.


It
did not work well enough to keep me interested in observational
astronomy.

That's YOUR problem. Most any amateur astronomer living prior to the 20th century and even quite a few of the world's poor today, would have killed (figuratively speaking) to own that telescope.

I was simply stating my personal experience, like Bill. Your opinion
here, like always, is of no merit.

It did more harm than good.

You say that, yet you became quite re-interested when a salvageable astro telescope fell into your lap a few years later.

I'm patient, and very intelligent. And I still lost years of
observing. Most people give up forever.

On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 3:21:53 PM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:14:39 -0700 (PDT), wsnell01 wrote:

On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 1:27:41 PM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:53:35 -0700 (PDT), wsnell01 wrote:
peterson, who can't edit properly, wrote:

That's pretty similar to my own experience. I got a Tasco refractor,
probably around 2.5 inches on an altaz tripod. I saw Saturn well
enough, and spent a little time on the Moon, but it was pretty useless
for anything else. The lowest magnification was too high, and the
tripod was too shaky. Gave up on it after a few months and didn't
revisit visual astronomy again until my teens, when I got a 6" Newt
that had been damaged in a fire and which I rebuilt. I used that scope
for a long time.

Then you would have to agree that telescopes sold by department stores (your altaz Tasco, for example) are great! Any problems with your Tasco were largely due to pilot error, user ignorance or lack of interest. Do not argue with that.

No. The telescope was not useful because it was poorly designed.

No, it wasn't poorly designed. It just wasn't designed well enough for a spoiled brat.

Very few kids would have the patience to try and make a shaky,
over-magnified telescope work.

Most scopes will have at least one eyepiece that provides reasonably low power magnification and reasonably wide FOV. Smart kids (you weren't) figure that out and smart kids (you weren't) figure out how to beef up the mount, deal with its quirks or replace it, or their parents are smart enough (yours weren't) to help them.


I have little doubt that such products
have turned vastly more people away from astronomy than they ever
created.

Incorrect. If one's level of interest is low to begin with, the best scope in the world won't help. If one's interest high to begin with, a poor scope will not ruin that interest.


It
did not work well enough to keep me interested in observational
astronomy.

That's YOUR problem. Most any amateur astronomer living prior to the 20th century and even quite a few of the world's poor today, would have killed (figuratively speaking) to own that telescope.

I was simply stating my personal experience, like Bill. Your opinion
here, like always, is of no merit.

Obviously, you and others here had some small scopes that you didn't like but you still managed to find your way to the hobby. My opinion is more valid than yours, peterson. That small refractor of yours would have been a rare gem prior to the 20th century.


It did more harm than good.

You say that, yet you became quite re-interested when a salvageable astro telescope fell into your lap a few years later.

I'm patient, and very intelligent. And I still lost years of
observing.

Your first telescope was really no worse than mine. However, I was smarter, more interested, more diligent and more resourceful than you.

Most people give up forever.

Most people aren't really all that interested to begin with. If they were, then planetaria and observatories would be mobbed and overrun with people every open house night.

People have other things to do:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hobbies

Department store scopes let them test the waters. Buying a $500+ goto scope is too much of a commitment. You are -really- out of touch, peterson.